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A while ago I found a POV-Ray related website with link to various
resources. I saw that there was linked to the pages containing the
resources, but there was also linked directly to the resources, which is not
generally accepted on the net, when permission is not granted.
The page is at:
http://www.crosswinds.net/~teammbs/vault.html
20 days ago I wrote an e-mail to him, telling him what's wrong, and asking
him (politely I think) to remove the direct links. I didn't get a reply, and
the page remained the same.
5 days later I asked him the same again, and said that if he needed some
time to change the page I wouldn't mind, but I would at least like to hear
from him. Still nothing happened.
So what can I do now? I don't like him linking directly to my resources, and
I'm sure many other feel the same.
Greetings,
Rune
---
Updated April 25: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
Containing 3D images, stereograms, tutorials,
The POV Desktop Theme, 350+ raytracing jokes,
miscellaneous other things, and a lot of fun!
Post a reply to this message
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are they links to new pages? or has he put up the site and then left it
to rot in cyberspace? if it's the second, then he may have tanked the
email service he was using as well or may not use it anymore. what i
would do if i were you would be to change the directories of your pages
so his links don't match. if your pages only refer to other docs in the
same directory and your main page refers to the sub-main-pages, this
won't be a huge hassle as only a few links would need to be changed.
other than that, i don't know what you can do.
Rune wrote:
>
> A while ago I found a POV-Ray related website with link to various
> resources. I saw that there was linked to the pages containing the
> resources, but there was also linked directly to the resources, which is not
> generally accepted on the net, when permission is not granted.
>
> The page is at:
>
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~teammbs/vault.html
>
> 20 days ago I wrote an e-mail to him, telling him what's wrong, and asking
> him (politely I think) to remove the direct links. I didn't get a reply, and
> the page remained the same.
>
> 5 days later I asked him the same again, and said that if he needed some
> time to change the page I wouldn't mind, but I would at least like to hear
> from him. Still nothing happened.
>
> So what can I do now? I don't like him linking directly to my resources, and
> I'm sure many other feel the same.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Rune
>
> ---
> Updated April 25: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
> Containing 3D images, stereograms, tutorials,
> The POV Desktop Theme, 350+ raytracing jokes,
> miscellaneous other things, and a lot of fun!
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Very easy. Rename your files or whatever he/she is linking to and rename
appropriately in your html. All his/her links will now be bad. Problem
solved.
--
Mike
wk: mik### [at] pyxis com www.pyxis.com
hm: mwe### [at] sciticom www.geocities.com/mikepweber
"Rune" <run### [at] inamecom> wrote in message
news:391c7e75@news.povray.org...
> A while ago I found a POV-Ray related website with link to various
> resources. I saw that there was linked to the pages containing the
> resources, but there was also linked directly to the resources, which is
not
> generally accepted on the net, when permission is not granted.
>
> The page is at:
>
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~teammbs/vault.html
>
> 20 days ago I wrote an e-mail to him, telling him what's wrong, and asking
> him (politely I think) to remove the direct links. I didn't get a reply,
and
> the page remained the same.
>
> 5 days later I asked him the same again, and said that if he needed some
> time to change the page I wouldn't mind, but I would at least like to hear
> from him. Still nothing happened.
>
> So what can I do now? I don't like him linking directly to my resources,
and
> I'm sure many other feel the same.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Rune
>
> ---
> Updated April 25: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
> Containing 3D images, stereograms, tutorials,
> The POV Desktop Theme, 350+ raytracing jokes,
> miscellaneous other things, and a lot of fun!
>
>
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Is a direct link a link that takes you to the page that links to the file? Why
is this undesirable?
Brendan Ryan
Rune wrote:
> A while ago I found a POV-Ray related website with link to various
> resources. I saw that there was linked to the pages containing the
> resources, but there was also linked directly to the resources, which is not
> generally accepted on the net, when permission is not granted.
>
> The page is at:
>
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~teammbs/vault.html
>
> 20 days ago I wrote an e-mail to him, telling him what's wrong, and asking
> him (politely I think) to remove the direct links. I didn't get a reply, and
> the page remained the same.
>
> 5 days later I asked him the same again, and said that if he needed some
> time to change the page I wouldn't mind, but I would at least like to hear
> from him. Still nothing happened.
>
> So what can I do now? I don't like him linking directly to my resources, and
> I'm sure many other feel the same.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Rune
>
> ---
> Updated April 25: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
> Containing 3D images, stereograms, tutorials,
> The POV Desktop Theme, 350+ raytracing jokes,
> miscellaneous other things, and a lot of fun!
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Andrea Ryan wrote:
> Is a direct link a link that takes you to the page that links to the file? Why
> is this undesirable?
> Brendan Ryan
No, a direct link generally links directly to a binary file. For example, if you
have a web page about POV and you have a scene that you have made available on that
page, a direct link would bypass your page and go directly to the POV scene or the
zip file, etc..
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Rune I know this guy via email and linked forums. I'll try to relay your
message to him. Last I talked with his wife she said he was gaming alot so
he may not be checking his e-mail. I'll let you know if I get a hold of him.
--
C.J. - Pov User.
E-Mail: hou### [at] yahoocom
website: www.crosswinds.net/~povstudy
forum: www.delphi.com/povraytth/start
Rune <run### [at] inamecom> wrote in message
news:391c7e75@news.povray.org...
> A while ago I found a POV-Ray related website with link to various
> resources. I saw that there was linked to the pages containing the
> resources, but there was also linked directly to the resources, which is
not
> generally accepted on the net, when permission is not granted.
>
> The page is at:
>
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~teammbs/vault.html
>
> 20 days ago I wrote an e-mail to him, telling him what's wrong, and asking
> him (politely I think) to remove the direct links. I didn't get a reply,
and
> the page remained the same.
>
> 5 days later I asked him the same again, and said that if he needed some
> time to change the page I wouldn't mind, but I would at least like to hear
> from him. Still nothing happened.
>
> So what can I do now? I don't like him linking directly to my resources,
and
> I'm sure many other feel the same.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Rune
>
> ---
> Updated April 25: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
> Containing 3D images, stereograms, tutorials,
> The POV Desktop Theme, 350+ raytracing jokes,
> miscellaneous other things, and a lot of fun!
>
>
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Hello Rune!
So sorry to hear my website has caused you so many problems. I am assuming that
you emailed me by clicking on the very prevailent email icon, but no matter.
For whatever reason, I have yet to recieve a SINGLE email from you.
If you would have looked in the website section titled "Member Contact
Information", you would have found my personal email address as well.
Now then, down to business. Please tell me here (or email me at the address
listed above) exactly which links are YOURS and they will be removed. You might
note that the page in question lists well over 100 different resources and
websites. It would simply be close to impossible to guess which one(s) might be
yours.
As to any others that feel a link is some sort of improper intrusion, please
follow the directions above and your links will be removed as well.
Thankyou for your understanding,
October
Rune wrote:
> A while ago I found a POV-Ray related website with link to various
> resources. I saw that there was linked to the pages containing the
> resources, but there was also linked directly to the resources, which is not
> generally accepted on the net, when permission is not granted.
>
> The page is at:
>
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~teammbs/vault.html
>
> 20 days ago I wrote an e-mail to him, telling him what's wrong, and asking
> him (politely I think) to remove the direct links. I didn't get a reply, and
> the page remained the same.
>
> 5 days later I asked him the same again, and said that if he needed some
> time to change the page I wouldn't mind, but I would at least like to hear
> from him. Still nothing happened.
>
> So what can I do now? I don't like him linking directly to my resources, and
> I'm sure many other feel the same.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Rune
>
> ---
> Updated April 25: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
> Containing 3D images, stereograms, tutorials,
> The POV Desktop Theme, 350+ raytracing jokes,
> miscellaneous other things, and a lot of fun!
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Hi Andrea,
What Rune is concerned about (I think) is a link that connects directly to his .zip
file. What Rune has not told you is that I offer my veiwers both a link to the
page AND to the file. This gives those that are curious an easy way to see the
source of the file (screenshots, description, etc.) as well as a quick way to
obtain just the file without having to open another browser window. Rune's file is
(correction: WAS) one of a simple, alphabetically organized list of over 100
various povray include and macros. It was my intention to allow those that wished
to collect several different includes to have an easy way to do it all from one web
page, instead of actually having to visit hundreds of different sites in search of
a useful file.
Live long and prosper :)
October
Andrea Ryan wrote:
> Is a direct link a link that takes you to the page that links to the file? Why
> is this undesirable?
> Brendan Ryan
>
> Rune wrote:
>
> > A while ago I found a POV-Ray related website with link to various
> > resources. I saw that there was linked to the pages containing the
> > resources, but there was also linked directly to the resources, which is not
> > generally accepted on the net, when permission is not granted.
> >
> > The page is at:
> >
> > http://www.crosswinds.net/~teammbs/vault.html
> >
> > 20 days ago I wrote an e-mail to him, telling him what's wrong, and asking
> > him (politely I think) to remove the direct links. I didn't get a reply, and
> > the page remained the same.
> >
> > 5 days later I asked him the same again, and said that if he needed some
> > time to change the page I wouldn't mind, but I would at least like to hear
> > from him. Still nothing happened.
> >
> > So what can I do now? I don't like him linking directly to my resources, and
> > I'm sure many other feel the same.
> >
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Rune
> >
> > ---
> > Updated April 25: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
> > Containing 3D images, stereograms, tutorials,
> > The POV Desktop Theme, 350+ raytracing jokes,
> > miscellaneous other things, and a lot of fun!
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October wrote:
>
> Hi Andrea,
>
> What Rune is concerned about (I think) is a link that connects directly to his .zip
> file. What Rune has not told you is that I offer my veiwers both a link to the
> page AND to the file. This gives those that are curious an easy way to see the
> source of the file (screenshots, description, etc.) as well as a quick way to
> obtain just the file without having to open another browser window. Rune's file is
> (correction: WAS) one of a simple, alphabetically organized list of over 100
> various povray include and macros. It was my intention to allow those that wished
> to collect several different includes to have an easy way to do it all from one web
> page, instead of actually having to visit hundreds of different sites in search of
> a useful file.
The problem with you doing this is that you put some of the people whos files
you are directly linking to in direct violation of their ISP's TOS. For
example XOOM and geocities directly forbid linking directly to files on
pages they provide space for. You run the risk of making it so that
these page providers will pull the accounts of the people whos files you
are linking to.
--
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/
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Hello Ken (I am a big fan of your bookmarks ;)
I can understand some people's concern in this matter.
Not to debate words with you (or anyone else), webspace providers such as XOOM and
Geocities include such provisions in their TOSs to reduce the consumption of bandwidth
produced by directlinking image and sound files (<img src>, <embed>, etc.) and to try
and
assure that as many people as possible view the respective webspace advertisements
(i.e.,
the xoom banner).
Quoted from http://www.xoom.com/TOS/
"XOOM.com provides members with unlimited web space. Unlimited Web Space, as defined
by
XOOM.com, is comprised of hypertext markup language (html) and associated files,
intended
solely for the audio/visual presentation of the XOOM.com members' web pages. The
spirit
of unlimited web space is specifically not intended as a storage facility for members'
personal digital files. Using it as such is a violation of XOOM.com's Terms of
Service."
In other words, XOOM at least has declared in their TOS that it is a violation for the
member to even have such files not directly related to the html documents
"audio/visual"
presentation. Members who host such files on XOOM or similar webspace providers run
the
risk of violating the TOS by even storing them.
As to violating such TOSs by a simple link to such files, try to link to an image at
XOOM
sometime and see what happens.
Regardless, as I have stated in previous posts, if any are concerned with the format
of
my links at the http://www.crosswinds.net/~teammbs/ websites, please email me with
specific information concerning your links and they will be promptly altered or
removed.
Sincerely,
October
Ken wrote:
>
>
> The problem with you doing this is that you put some of the people whos files
> you are directly linking to in direct violation of their ISP's TOS. For
> example XOOM and geocities directly forbid linking directly to files on
> pages they provide space for. You run the risk of making it so that
> these page providers will pull the accounts of the people whos files you
> are linking to.
>
> --
> Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
> http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/
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"C.J. (C. Jokinen)" wrote:
> Rune I know this guy via email and linked
> forums. I'll try to relay your message to
> him. Last I talked with his wife she said
> he was gaming alot so he may not be
> checking his e-mail. I'll let you know if
> I get a hold of him.
Thanks you! I appreciate that!
Greetings,
Rune
---
Updated April 25: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
Containing 3D images, stereograms, tutorials,
The POV Desktop Theme, 350+ raytracing jokes,
miscellaneous other things, and a lot of fun!
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"Mike Weber" wrote:
> Very easy. Rename your files or
> whatever he/she is linking to and
> rename appropriately in your html.
> All his/her links will now be bad.
> Problem solved.
Thanks for your reply!
Problem is that only his links to *my* files would be bad. Of course I
cannot speak for others, but I think that I'm not the only one who don't
like having people linking directly to my binaries resources. It would be
annoying if maybe hundreds of people had to rename their files just because
one person linked to them.
Greetings,
Rune
---
Updated April 25: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
Containing 3D images, stereograms, tutorials,
The POV Desktop Theme, 350+ raytracing jokes,
miscellaneous other things, and a lot of fun!
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"ryan constantine" wrote:
> are they links to new pages? or has he
> put up the site and then left it to rot
> in cyberspace?
It's not completely updated, yet it must be somewhat new. There's a link to
MegaPov 0.3.
> what i would do if i were you would be
> to change the directories of your pages
> so his links don't match.
Thanks for the suggestion. I think I would rather rename my binary files, so
the page links still work but not the links that links directly to the
binary files. But I don't think that's the best solution. See my reply to
Mike Weber.
Greetings,
Rune
---
Updated April 25: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
Containing 3D images, stereograms, tutorials,
The POV Desktop Theme, 350+ raytracing jokes,
miscellaneous other things, and a lot of fun!
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> So sorry to hear my website has caused you
> so many problems. I am assuming that you
> emailed me by clicking on the very
> prevailent email icon, but no matter.
That's what I did.
> For whatever reason, I have yet to recieve
> a SINGLE email from you.
Hmm, I don't know why. I didn't receive any error messages.
> If you would have looked in the website
> section titled "Member Contact Information",
> you would have found my personal email
> address as well.
OK, I just assumed the e-mail icon was good enough if I wanted to mail you.
> Now then, down to business. Please tell me
> here (or email me at the address listed
> above) exactly which links are YOURS and
> they will be removed.
All the links at http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk/
I would appreciate if you kept the links to the html pages.
> As to any others that feel a link is some
> sort of improper intrusion, please follow
> the directions above and your links will
> be removed as well.
It is not generally accepted to link to other people's resources without
having got their permission. For that reason people shouldn't have to tell
you if they want their link removed. YOU should ask for permission in the
first place.
Here's a quote by Ken:
"Many people put in a lot of time and effort publishing their web pages
and offer some POV-Ray related materials to attract visitors to their
site. If you collect all of the resources available from the hundreds
of sites out there, and put it into one monster collection, there will
be no reason for people to visit the other web pages. Besides making
a lot of web pages instantly obsolete I am sure you also run the risk
of hurting the feeling of more than just a few people who enjoy having
regular visitors to their sites.
I personally never would, and never have, put someone else's material
on my own web page without first asking permission. I would consider
it in very poor taste to do so and it would show that a person has
very little regard or respect for copyright law. I think there is a
strong moral justification to contact the owner of the material for
permission prior to inclusion into any such collection."
> Thankyou for your understanding,
And thank you for your understanding too.
Greetings,
Rune
---
Updated April 25: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
Containing 3D images, stereograms, tutorials,
The POV Desktop Theme, 350+ raytracing jokes,
miscellaneous other things, and a lot of fun!
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Rune wrote:
> Here's a quote by Ken:
>
> "Many people put in a lot of time and effort publishing their web pages
> and offer some POV-Ray related materials to attract visitors to their
> site. If you collect all of the resources available from the hundreds
> of sites out there, and put it into one monster collection, there will
> be no reason for people to visit the other web pages. Besides making
> a lot of web pages instantly obsolete I am sure you also run the risk
> of hurting the feeling of more than just a few people who enjoy having
> regular visitors to their sites.
>
> I personally never would, and never have, put someone else's material
> on my own web page without first asking permission. I would consider
> it in very poor taste to do so and it would show that a person has
> very little regard or respect for copyright law. I think there is a
> strong moral justification to contact the owner of the material for
> permission prior to inclusion into any such collection."
I was in good form that day :)
Just like I said above about collecting material into one large collection
without permission also applies to directly linking to files on other
peoples web sites. I just consider it common courtesy to let people know
that you are using their resources in this manner. You not only linking
to their material you are consuming their bandwidth. Some people (me for
example) pay for the cost of their web sites rather than using free web
page services such as xoom and geocities.
--
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/
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Ken,
A link is a link is a link! A simple html tag redirecting your browser to
another URL does NOT consume bandwidth, even if the URL ends in .zip! What
does consume bandwidth is the actual transfer of data from your site, when
someone actually downloads your file for instance. If a file is available
on a website for public consumption in the first place, links on other sites
will possibly contribute to an increase in downloads through increased
publicity, but do not consume your bandwidth by simply existing.
I'm starting to feel like Capt'n Oct, King of the Bandwidth Pirates or
something ;)
My collection of links serves the povray community by providing fast access
to both the respective files AND the source html. For the respective
authors of such software, this is a GOOD thing, as it may increase awareness
of their work in the povray community. Publicity, feedback, compliments...
all of this comes to those who write good code and make it publicly
available, but only if people know where to find it!
For the prospective povray user, my site simply provides the very best
collection of links to "quality" includes and macros publicly available on
the web. I dare say that there may be no other single site in existance
that is capable of providing such concise information so quickly. I know
it took me over a month to find the links that I have there. Most pov'ers
know the frustration of trying to find a rumored include or macro, only to
wade through screen fulls of dead-end links and unrelated web "fluff". I
am simply trying to alleviate some of this.
Yes, handcrafted webpages can be a thing of pride and there are reasons for
wanting people to see them. My links are not designed to be a showcase for
pretty websites... it is designed to supply answers fast.
As for "common courtesty to let people know that you are using their
resources in this manner", I couldn't agree more. In fact, several of the
authors whose work I have links to have consented, either non-specifically
(in a readme) or via email. To assure that all of them (over 120) recieved
this same consideration was simply beyond my abilities at the time. I have
retracted my links to Rune's specific website/resources and have publicly
offered to do the same for any others that might share his concerns.
For you, Rune, and anyone else who might be interested:
I am soon going to be updating my website including verification of links.
It is my goal to only provide the best links and resources available to the
povray community. I will be personally emailing all authors of any files I
wish to include in my links to ask for permission. This permission will be
asked to both post the link as well as to publicly archive the files in MY
server, so as to put concerns of bandwidth to rest... I will "foot the bill"
for any that wish to have their work archived.
If you have written includes or macros for povray and would wish to publicly
share them with the rest of the community through my website, please feel
free to email me with the specific details.
If you know that I already have your contribution on my links pages, please
email a quick note either granting permission to continue my service or
requesting that I withdraw your link. Regardless, you should be recieving
an email from me soon anyway.
Thanks in advance for all your help and understanding,
October
----------------
Team MBS Graphics Group
http://www.crosswinds.net/~teammbs
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"October" wrote:
> I'm starting to feel like Capt'n Oct, King
> of the Bandwidth Pirates or something ;)
I think the bandwidth problem is not as bad as the problem of making other
people's pages obsolete.
> My collection of links serves the povray
> community by providing fast access to both
> the respective files AND the source html.
> For the respective authors of such software,
> this is a GOOD thing, as it may increase
> awareness of their work in the povray
> community.
Awareness of authors' work will increase even more if people visit their
pages where the resources are.
> Publicity, feedback, compliments...
> all of this comes to those who write good
> code and make it publicly available, but
> only if people know where to find it!
That's why regular links to html pages are a good thing.
> For the prospective povray user, my site
> simply provides the very best collection of
> links to "quality" includes and macros
> publicly available on the web. I dare say
> that there may be no other single site in
> existance that is capable of providing such
> concise information so quickly.
Other's have though of it, but for moral reasons they chose not to make it.
> I know it took me over a month to find the
> links that I have there. Most pov'ers know
> the frustration of trying to find a rumored
> include or macro, only to wade through screen
> fulls of dead-end links and unrelated web
> "fluff". I am simply trying to alleviate some
> of this.
There's just as big a chance that a link to a .zip file is a dead-end link
as that a link to a html page is. In a good link collection to html pages
people don't have problems finding the resources.
> Yes, handcrafted webpages can be a thing of
> pride and there are reasons for wanting people
> to see them.My links are not designed to be a
> showcase for pretty websites... it is designed
> to supply answers fast.
Here's the problem. You think you have the right to decide if you want to
link directly or not because it's your page. But it is NOT your resources.
You do not have the right to decide if people must visit the pages in order
to get the resources. It should be the choice of the authors of the
resources.
> As for "common courtesty to let people know
> that you are using their resources in this
> manner", I couldn't agree more. In fact,
> several of the authors whose work I have
> links to have consented, either
> non-specifically (in a readme) or via email.
> To assure that all of them (over 120) recieved
> this same consideration was simply beyond
> my abilities at the time.
It is great that you provide direct links to the resources of those who
accept it, but you shouldn't include links to resources where you have got
no permission at all. Being beyond your abilities is not an excuse.
> I am soon going to be updating my website
> including verification of links. I will be
> personally emailing all authors of any files
> I wish to include in my links to ask for
> permission.
I think this is good. If you begin to have links to resources where you have
got permission only, it will indeed be a great links collection.
> Finally, the implication that posting a
> simple link to an exterior location is
> somehow related to copyright law is simply
> erroneous, and in my opinion, in bad taste...
I was simply quoting Ken.
Greetings,
Rune
---
Updated April 25: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
Containing 3D images, stereograms, tutorials,
The POV Desktop Theme, 350+ raytracing jokes,
miscellaneous other things, and a lot of fun!
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I personally would prefer visitors to visit my site rather that directly
downloading the file you are linking. Mainly because I would like to think
my site offers more than just one binary. Also the binary you are linking
is out of date, Blob Man is now currently on version 4.2, that's 4 versions
on from than the one you have linked, plus there are update binaries
available for those with older versions, so they don't have to download the
whole thing.
Regards,
Peter H.
--
____________________________________________________________________
___ _ _ _______
| _ \ || | Peter Houston Houston Graphics 3D Sketch Pad |__ / \
| _/ __ | http://welcome.to/HoustonGraphics |_ \ |) |
|_| |_||_| ICQ# 8770407 Latest Update : 11 May 2000 |___/___/
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You could contact crosswinds.net and inform them of the practice and that it
is undesirable. See if they can verify that the page is still active.
Rune <run### [at] inamecom> wrote in message
news:391c7e75@news.povray.org...
> A while ago I found a POV-Ray related website with link to various
> resources. I saw that there was linked to the pages containing the
> resources, but there was also linked directly to the resources, which is
not
> generally accepted on the net, when permission is not granted.
>
> The page is at:
>
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~teammbs/vault.html
>
> 20 days ago I wrote an e-mail to him, telling him what's wrong, and asking
> him (politely I think) to remove the direct links. I didn't get a reply,
and
> the page remained the same.
>
> 5 days later I asked him the same again, and said that if he needed some
> time to change the page I wouldn't mind, but I would at least like to hear
> from him. Still nothing happened.
>
> So what can I do now? I don't like him linking directly to my resources,
and
> I'm sure many other feel the same.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Rune
>
> ---
> Updated April 25: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
> Containing 3D images, stereograms, tutorials,
> The POV Desktop Theme, 350+ raytracing jokes,
> miscellaneous other things, and a lot of fun!
>
>
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"October" <oct### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
news:391e2f8b@news.povray.org...
> My collection of links serves the povray community by providing fast
access
> to both the respective files AND the source html. For the respective
> authors of such software, this is a GOOD thing, as it may increase
awareness
> of their work in the povray community. Publicity, feedback,
compliments...
> all of this comes to those who write good code and make it publicly
> available, but only if people know where to find it!
October,
While I follow your line of reasoning, I can not accept it. Surely your
collection of links serves the pov community (I assume it is well done - I
did not check). Maybe your link collection is a good thing for the authors -
but this is for them to judge. Just because you think it is good for them
does not mean they agree. Each author has the right to keep control of how
and where his work is distributed. If an author "uses" an item you link
directly to to attract people to his site, you are actively destroying his
work.
> As for "common courtesty to let people know that you are using their
> resources in this manner", I couldn't agree more. In fact, several of the
> authors whose work I have links to have consented, either non-specifically
> (in a readme) or via email. To assure that all of them (over 120) recieved
> this same consideration was simply beyond my abilities at the time.
You just can't (morally speaking) work that way. You have to get an
agreement _first_, then include the links. And if you do not even get an
answer, you have no right to include the link. Saying that you were unable
to contact all authors (due to their number) is not an acceptable argument.
You have to give yourself the means adequate to the task - or choose a goal
according to the means you have.
> I have
> retracted my links to Rune's specific website/resources and have publicly
> offered to do the same for any others that might share his concerns.
This is no good. You have no assurance that they read this. You have to
contact them personally and get an agreement for including their links.
Period.
Now, I understand you did all this in good faith and it more than probably
was quite a workload. I am not reproaching, criticising nor scolding you. I
just try to inform. I know this post is a bit harsh and dry, but it is so
for speed sake (I am writing this form work) and clarity.
Keep on the good work,
Povingly,
Philippe
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This means that the ISPs assume that the authors of the resources know that someone is
linking directly to them. How can the ISPs know about a direct link without browsing
the
whole web?
Brendan Ryan
Ken wrote:
> direct violation of their ISP's TOS. For
> example XOOM and geocities directly forbid linking directly to files on
> pages they provide space for. You run the risk of making it so that
> these page providers will pull the accounts of the people whos files you
> are linking to.
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On Mon, 15 May 2000 15:27:45 -0400, Andrea Ryan wrote:
>This means that the ISPs assume that the authors of the resources know that someone
is
>linking directly to them. How can the ISPs know about a direct link without browsing
the
>whole web?
The HTTP Referer: field. Lots of people log that as a matter of course.
--
Ron Parker http://www2.fwi.com/~parkerr/traces.html
These are my opinions. I do NOT speak for the POV-Team.
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A frantic looking man stops at a street corner, rolls down his window and
says to a stranger: "Hey! Can you help me? I forgot my wedding
anniversary and I have a short amount of TIME to shop for a diamond ring for
my wife! I need to FIND a good bottle of champagne and rent a tuxedo for
dinner too, which is only a couple hours away!!! Can you give me directions
so I can do these things ASAP????"
The stranger, knowing the man is NEW to his town, thinks for a minute and
then responds:
"Uhmmmm.... SURE! Drive east three blocks and then stop at the city park,
the roses are in bloom there! Beyond the rose garden, you should be just in
time to watch my kid play softball at the ballpark! During the game, ask
the guy who is selling hotdogs there (not the tall skinny one, the other
shorter one, but not the one with a beard, the one with the glasses) to
point out the wineshop across the street."
"When you are done there at the wineshop, just leave your car parked and
ride the public transit bus with the signs on it that say "Historic Route".
It will take an hour to get to the tux rental, but the houses and other
buildings along the way are sure to make your day!"
"And then, stop by the new hardware store and the new art galleries, be sure
to try a fresh bagel at......... What did you need to buy again?"
The man squeals the tires and leaves in disgust. This is part of the
reason people still feel justified buying things like Bryce... for the
easily accessable resources and support.
Rune, you have a nice website. Really! But how many mouse clicks does it
take to find it from a search engine? Also, graphically intensive sites
like yours, hosted outside the US, are tedious to surf through with a slower
connection like mine. Or even if you KNOW you can find a link there from
the www.povray.org? Now add up the clicks and the hours of searching to
find 100+ resources... don't forget broken links and "websites left to rot
in cyberspace"!
Resources like yours should be returned to the pov community in the spirit
that the essential software itself is: Free of strings! If people want to
visit your website, good! I have (had) a link to it as well. If you are
only worried about getting "hits" on your website, than say so... or better
yet, make your includes shareware or some other format that gives you a bit
of control.
Until further notice, I am pulling my links page, the only one that was
deemed worthy of listing at www.povray.org, because YOU and a few others
seem to have such a problem with what I have done. I will be sure to let
others know who they can thank, ok?
The povray community can remain in the shadows of elitism; resources
mouldering in a rickety maze of links and REDUNDANT websites.
To those who have been offended by my linking policy, I apologize sincerely.
To those who will miss seeing their hard work promoted through my site and
forums, I apologize sincerely. If you are interested in having your website
and/or resources catalouged in a future listing, or stored for archive
purposes (so those new to povray can find all the good stuff without surfing
hundreds of websites), please email me.
Thanks in advance.
October
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I agree completely.
Greetings,
Rune
---
Updated April 25: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
Containing 3D images, stereograms, tutorials,
The POV Desktop Theme, 350+ raytracing jokes,
miscellaneous other things, and a lot of fun!
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"October" <oct### [at] hotmailcom> wrote :
>
> Resources like yours should be returned to the pov community in the spirit
> that the essential software itself is: Free of strings!
You don't see the problem with making this decision for other people?
Here's another nice story. An artist spend his life creating a body of work
and some guy just decides that the artist "should" share it with the world
so he takes it without asking and hangs it up in a local bar where it is
easy for everyone to see. I call that thievery.
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October wrote:
> The povray community can remain in the shadows of elitism; resources
> mouldering in a rickety maze of links and REDUNDANT websites.
>
> To those who have been offended by my linking policy, I apologize sincerely.
> To those who will miss seeing their hard work promoted through my site and
> forums, I apologize sincerely. If you are interested in having your website
> and/or resources catalouged in a future listing, or stored for archive
> purposes (so those new to povray can find all the good stuff without surfing
> hundreds of websites), please email me.
I think you are misinterpreting our criticism and over reacting. No one
minds you providing a well researched collection of POV-Ray resource links
together in one place. In fact you will find that I, above all others that
frequent these groups, do more to promote the sharing of Pov related resources
than anyone else. I can't remember the number of people I have cajoled into
putting their material on a web page so that I might provide a link to it in
my collecion. All of this so that others may learn and or bennifit from the
sharing of information and resources.
The one thing I have been very careful about however is making sure that
I advertise the site along with the resource. There are maybe 5 links out
of 1400 that will allow you to directly download a file. The rest require
you to visit the site to get the files. I used to do more linking directly
to the files but I got several complaints. One person mentioned that his
ISP complained about the direct links coming from my site. They almost
pulled his account.
In the three years I have been doing this now I have had nothing but positive
comments from people because I have helped increase traffic to their sites.
Additionaly in the three years I have been doing this I have learned a lot
about internet protocol and one of the important things I have learned is
that you do not link directly to files on someone elses web site without
permission.
--
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/
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"Ken" <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote in message news:3920EAE6.7CD208CF@pacbell.net...
{
{ October wrote:
{
{ > The povray community can remain in the shadows of elitism; resources
{ > mouldering in a rickety maze of links and REDUNDANT websites.
{ >
{ > To those who have been offended by my linking policy, I apologize sincerely.
{ > To those who will miss seeing their hard work promoted through my site and
{ > forums, I apologize sincerely. If you are interested in having your website
{ > and/or resources catalouged in a future listing, or stored for archive
{ > purposes (so those new to povray can find all the good stuff without surfing
{ > hundreds of websites), please email me.
{
{ I think you are misinterpreting our criticism and over reacting. No one
{ minds you providing a well researched collection of POV-Ray resource links
{ together in one place. In fact you will find that I, above all others that
{ frequent these groups, do more to promote the sharing of Pov related resources
<snipped>
{ In the three years I have been doing this now I have had nothing but positive
{ comments from people because I have helped increase traffic to their sites.
{ Additionaly in the three years I have been doing this I have learned a lot
{ about internet protocol and one of the important things I have learned is
{ that you do not link directly to files on someone elses web site without
{ permission.
I'm haphazard myself, the ignorant s.o.b. that I am :-)
Often I see it as a more suitable thing to link to a web page since it
will have info about a file. Even if it's on a FTP directory I might link to the
whole
thing instead of a solitary file.
However I have also quite often shared a link with others via email or at a
message board (and here at news.povray I'm pretty sure) which simply goes
directly to a file. Seeing the talk here has me trying to rethink this.
Back to the subject matter, I hate to see a good resource pulled but there's
obviously something to be considered mo
re thoroughly. Takes time to think
and that's how I viewed all this. There was delay in getting any agreements
(or otherwise). Most of all since there's more to it than even personal choices
then it probably is best if October were to try and adjust to those internet "rules",
so maybe there is still a way to get the web page satisfactory for all.
Well, just expressing my opinion. Don't want to step on toes. It was a great
set of links.
Bob
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On Tue, 16 May 2000 03:32:24 -0500, "Bob Hughes" >I'm haphazard myself, the
ignorant s.o.b. that I am :-)
>Often I see it as a more suitable thing to link to a web page since it
>will have info about a file. Even if it's on a FTP directory I might link to the
whole
>thing instead of a solitary file.
>However I have also quite often shared a link with others via email or at a
>message board (and here at news.povray I'm pretty sure) which simply goes
>directly to a file. Seeing the talk here has me trying to rethink this.
>Back to the subject matter, I hate to see a good resource pulled but there's
>obviously something to be considered mo
>re thoroughly. Takes time to think
>and that's how I viewed all this. There was delay in getting any agreements
>(or otherwise). Most of all since there's more to it than even personal choices
>then it probably is best if October were to try and adjust to those internet "rules",
>so maybe there is still a way to get the web page satisfactory for all.
>Well, just expressing my opinion. Don't want to step on toes. It was a great
>set of links.
>
>Bob
>
>
>
I would have to agree that October should only link to the web-page. One
moment I haven't seen mentioned her is that not all have access to the
logg-files, or have only partial access. On my new home away from home the
provider only reveals the HTML-file accesses and discard everything else. So
the only way I can get an idea how many downloads my NewIOR.inc file is to see
how many access the page it is linked from. Others who even don't get a
partial log have to rely on 3rd party providers like Superstats to get such
information. And if they make obscure files like the NewIOR, any feedback is
welcome. If they see people access the HTML-page they know some are interested
in it, and that can be a powerful incentive to keep upgrade it.
Sven-Erik Andersen
----
sve### [at] andersenas
sea### [at] mailcitycom
http://seasoft.tecbox.com/
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Bob Hughes wrote:
> "Ken" <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote in message news:3920EAE6.7CD208CF@pacbell.net...
> {
> { October wrote:
> {
> { > The povray community can remain in the shadows of elitism; resources
> { > mouldering in a rickety maze of links and REDUNDANT websites.
> { >
> { I think you are misinterpreting our criticism and over reacting. No one
> { minds you providing a well researched collection of POV-Ray resource links
> { together in one place. In fact you will find that I, above all others that
> { frequent these groups, do more to promote the sharing of Pov related resources
> <snipped>
>
> However I have also quite often shared a link with others via email or at a
> message board (and here at news.povray I'm pretty sure) which simply goes
> directly to a file.
One matter I have not seen mentioned here is the danger of broken links to images that
no
longer exist, a POV artist, who has a very good image file on his site, like Rune for
instance, the artist has no idea that someone has a link directly to his image, he
then
decides that the image is not good enough and changes it, hence, a broken link.
Linking to the web page is more beneficial to the web users as a whole, than having a
page
full of broken links to files or images that are not there.
I have been the victim of such links many many times, It is frustrating to say the
least.
All the above means that I agree with Rune. I would rather visit a web site than try
to
find a file that is not there.
--
,-._|\ Alex McMurray
/ Oz \ ale### [at] melbpcorgau Melbourne PC User Group.
\_,--.x/ Melton. Vic. 3337 Australia
v
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Alex McMurray wrote:
> One matter I have not seen mentioned here is the danger of broken links to
> images that no longer exist, a POV artist, who has a very good image file
> on his site, like Rune for instance, the artist has no idea that someone
> has a link directly to his image, he then decides that the image is not
> good enough and changes it, hence, a broken link.
This has caused me a lot of work. I used to bypass the entry page
to a web site and linked directly to the page containing a particular
resource. Without letting me know site owners have redesigned their
web sites and renamed the page containing the resoures I was linking
to. When checking for broken links I had to try to find out why my
links were no longer any good. For the most part I know link only to
the main page. I know it takes longer for people to find the stuff I
am linking to but they have a better chance of at least finding the
right web site.
--
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/
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"Ken" <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote in message news:3921F12E.3D70CD20@pacbell.net...
{
{ Alex McMurray wrote:
{
{ > One matter I have not seen mentioned here is the danger of broken links to
{ > images that no longer exist
{
{ This has caused me a lot of work. I used to bypass the entry page
{ to a web site and linked directly to the page containing a particular
{ resource. Without letting me know site owners have redesigned their
{ web sites and renamed the page containing the resoures I was linking
{ to.
It has occurred to me that if a web page listed everything, images and
pages and whatever else, at a persons web space then that would be
about as good as you could ask for. Indexed or a table of contents
type of thing. I seldom see peoples web pages showing the entire
contents of their web spaces and if a default html file exists (index.html)
then everything is kind of buried under the page.
I've been trying to think about this before and have started to at least
list the main web pages I have into the index.html file of each web space
root directory. That way anyone looking at a broken link would be able to
get the default page showing what is still there anyway.
I think a complete itemized list of everything there would be great but it's
probably too much a task for me to seriously consider.
I wouldn't mind coming across such places elsewhere though :-)
Bob
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"October" wrote:
> Until further notice, I am pulling my links page,
> the only one that was deemed worthy of listing at
> www.povray.org, because YOU and a few others seem
> to have such a problem with what I have done.
Um, the page is still there, and the direct links are still there too.
Rune
---
Updated April 25: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
Containing 3D images, stereograms, tutorials,
The POV Desktop Theme, 350+ raytracing jokes,
miscellaneous other things, and a lot of fun!
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Yours aren't! ;)
As to the website in general, my webspace provider has suffered a loss of
their RAID server which has greatly limited FTP capability over the last
several weeks. As soon as this problem is fixed a *new* version of the
TeamMBS website will be installed for everyone's enjoyment.
Many thanks to those who have emailed me with permissions, comments,
suggestions and special linking requests. Please help me make TeamMBS a
resource valuable to all of the POV community and continue to email me.
Many thanks,
October
--
-----
Team MBS Graphics Group
http://www.crosswinds.net/~teammbs
"Rune" <run### [at] inamecom> wrote in message
news:39254c78@news.povray.org...
> "October" wrote:
> > Until further notice, I am pulling my links page,
> > the only one that was deemed worthy of listing at
> > www.povray.org, because YOU and a few others seem
> > to have such a problem with what I have done.
>
> Um, the page is still there, and the direct links are still there too.
>
> Rune
>
> ---
> Updated April 25: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
> Containing 3D images, stereograms, tutorials,
> The POV Desktop Theme, 350+ raytracing jokes,
> miscellaneous other things, and a lot of fun!
>
>
>
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