Hi!

Before I go on any further with the POV-Ray Logo Contest I would like to
know the opinion of the POV-Team regarding this. I though maybe one from the
TAG-Team could inform them and ask them?

What I would like to know is this:

Do the POV-Team support the idea of POV-Ray having an official logo?

If they do, is there any chance they will support the POV-Ray Logo Contest,
where the logos are made by the users and chosen by the users through
voting?

I don't expect the POV-Team to decide at this early stage where the rules
haven't been made yet, and no logos have been submitted yet, but I just want
to know if there's a chance they will support it at a later stage, because
if there isn't, there's no reason to proceed with this contest arrangement.

I would also like to know any reservations the POV-Team might have.

Thanks in advance,

Rune

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Rune wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
> Before I go on any further with the POV-Ray Logo Contest I would like to
> know the opinion of the POV-Team regarding this. I though maybe one from the
> TAG-Team could inform them and ask them?

It would help if you could put the original entries back up on your
web site to give the team an example of what kind of logos you are
talking about. I went to the logo voting page and was going to use
that as a reference and noticed that you have taken the page down.

-- 
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

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"Ken" wrote:
> It would help if you could put the original
> entries back up on your web site to give the
> team an example of what kind of logos you are
> talking about. I went to the logo voting page
> and was going to use that as a reference and
> noticed that you have taken the page down.

I have not taken any page down.
Which page were you trying to access?
As far as I know, both the old URL
http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk/povlogos/
should work as well as the new URL
http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk/logo/logo.html .

The old page is just the page with the logos; the new page contains the
logos too as well as additional information. Note though, that both logos
and rules are those of the old competition. I expect both new rules and new
logos to be made for the new contest.

Thank you for your effort Ken! :-)

Rune

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Rune wrote:

> I have not taken any page down.
> Which page were you trying to access?
> As far as I know, both the old URL
> http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk/povlogos/

This page was 404 when I tried to access it yesterday. It does appear
to be working today though.

> Thank you for your effort Ken! :-)

I have been in touch with some of the POV-Team members but so far I have
no definitive answer as what role they are willing to take in this contest.
I'll let you know as soon as more of them have had time to respond and
put together an official response for you.

-- 
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

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"Ken" wrote:
> I have been in touch with some of the
> POV-Team members but so far I have no
> definitive answer as what role they
> are willing to take in this contest.
> I'll let you know as soon as more of
> them have had time to respond and put
> together an official response for you.

Thank you! I'll be waiting... :-)

Greetings,

Rune

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take your time, I've the schedule, and the competition won't
be over before 2 or 3 years ;-)

>
>I have been in touch with some of the POV-Team members but so far I have
>no definitive answer as what role they are willing to take in this contest.
>I'll let you know as soon as more of them have had time to respond and
>put together an official response for you.
>
>--
>Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
>http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

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Rune wrote:
> 
> "Ken" wrote:
> > I have been in touch with some of the
> > POV-Team members but so far I have no
> > definitive answer as what role they
> > are willing to take in this contest.
> > I'll let you know as soon as more of
> > them have had time to respond and put
> > together an official response for you.
> 
> Thank you! I'll be waiting... :-)

  In the mean time you may want to work a little on getting opinions on
the submission rules for the competition. For example the last round had
all entries restricted to a square aspect ration of 1:1. I see no reason
for this. There is a POV-Ray logo that the POV-Team is currently using
at povray.org that does not conform to this aspect ratio and I personally
think a 1:1 ratio artistically limiting.

  This logo http://www.povray.org/images/povlogo.gif, which has an aspect
ration of about 3.2:1, was created by the POV-Ray legend Truman Brown
using POV-Ray and was enhanced using PhotoShop. I think that an aspect
ration where the horizontal dimension exceeds the vertical dimension
should be allowed.

  As can be seen in Truman's logo a high level of craftsmanship has
been achieved. While it would be nice if a logo can be reduced to
a two tone black and white representation and still be recognizable
it should not be a mandatory rule.

  The letters "POV" while often used as a short hand for POV-Ray is
not a trademark of the program or of the POV-Team. It would be nice
to see more entries that actually use the full name of the program
(more information on this to follow in the official response).

These are my own opinions and not necessarily those of the POV-Team or
the POV-Ray TAG.

-- 
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

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"Ken" wrote:
> The last round had all entries restricted
> to a square aspect ration of 1:1. I see no
> reason for this. There is a POV-Ray logo
> that the POV-Team is currently using at
> povray.org that does not conform to this
> aspect ratio and I personally think a 1:1
> ratio artistically limiting.

The logo isn't limited to a square. Only the max width and height of the
image containing the logo.
You could see that many of the submitted logos for the "old" competition
were not square-formed. If the image size shouldn't be limited by a max
width and height, then we'd just have to find another way to define a limit.

> This logo http://www.povray.org/images/povlogo.gif,
> which has an aspect ration of about 3.2:1,
> was created by the POV-Ray legend Truman
> Brown using POV-Ray and was enhanced using
> PhotoShop. I think that an aspect ration
> where the horizontal dimension exceeds the
> vertical dimension should be allowed.

There must be some limit. The question is how the limit should be defined.

> As can be seen in Truman's logo a high
> level of craftsmanship has been achieved.
> While it would be nice if a logo can be
> reduced to a two tone black and white
> representation and still be recognizable
> it should not be a mandatory rule.

I disagree. If a logo is detailed, it is not always easy recognizable in
various, possible low resolutions. But a logo with few details is easy
recognizable in any format. Furthermore a simple logo can be presented in
various ways, and can be made more detailed and interesting. Different
people could make different versions/ways of presenting the logo.

Summarize: A detailed logo is always detailed and inflexible while a simple
logo can be presented in both simple and detailed ways, and is more
flexible.

> The letters "POV" while often used as a
> short hand for POV-Ray is not a trademark
> of the program or of the POV-Team. It
> would be nice to see more entries that
> actually use the full name of the program
> (more information on this to follow in
> the official response).

I agree.

Greetings,

Rune

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Rune wrote:
> 
> "Ken" wrote:
> > The last round had all entries restricted
> > to a square aspect ration of 1:1. I see no
> > reason for this. There is a POV-Ray logo
> > that the POV-Team is currently using at
> > povray.org that does not conform to this
> > aspect ratio and I personally think a 1:1
> > ratio artistically limiting.
> 
> The logo isn't limited to a square. Only the max width and height of the
> image containing the logo.
> You could see that many of the submitted logos for the "old" competition
> were not square-formed. If the image size shouldn't be limited by a max
> width and height, then we'd just have to find another way to define a limit.
 
> > This logo http://www.povray.org/images/povlogo.gif,
> > which has an aspect ration of about 3.2:1,
> > was created by the POV-Ray legend Truman
> > Brown using POV-Ray and was enhanced using
> > PhotoShop. I think that an aspect ration
> > where the horizontal dimension exceeds the
> > vertical dimension should be allowed.
> 
> There must be some limit. The question is how the limit should be defined.

I see no reason why a limit of up to 4:1 should not be allowed. This would
make a logo that would easily cover the top of a wep page or even across
the top of a piece of paper if it were printed. This is of course a ratio
of 4:1 = width:height and not 4:1 = height:width.
 
> > As can be seen in Truman's logo a high
> > level of craftsmanship has been achieved.
> > While it would be nice if a logo can be
> > reduced to a two tone black and white
> > representation and still be recognizable
> > it should not be a mandatory rule.
> 
> I disagree. If a logo is detailed, it is not always easy recognizable in
> various, possible low resolutions. But a logo with few details is easy
> recognizable in any format. Furthermore a simple logo can be presented in
> various ways, and can be made more detailed and interesting. Different
> people could make different versions/ways of presenting the logo.
> 
> Summarize: A detailed logo is always detailed and inflexible while a simple
> logo can be presented in both simple and detailed ways, and is more
> flexible.

In an electronic computer environment like POV-Ray and the WWW why would
you bother with a low resolution version of a logo ? I personally do not
see the benefit. I mean if we were creating a logo for illustrator
or some other print based program I could see a reason for it but not
in a compuer graphics related industry. Reach for the stars..........


-- 
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

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What we've been doing is rather an "icon competition", which is
not bad, since that's maybe the most common thing we see when using
POV-Ray.

However, as Ken points out, it's a little limitating, and we could
need a wider approach.  In fact, I'm thinking about some "graphical
chart", something that includes a logo, icons, color set,... and
general guidelines about how to process with the creation of a
POV-Ray-wise graphic element.

For example, I've seen Apple's graphical chart, and, on two busy 
pages, it explains how the logo is constructed, how you should
put the colors, how you should place it on bags, soft boxes,
trucks, which font to use, etc, etc...

I'm trying to find it on the web, but didn't have any success...

So, maybe we could have a contest to choose a general design
option (that would be materialised by a logo), and then declinate
a graphical chart, based on it.

Fabien.

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Fabien Mosen wrote:
> 
> What we've been doing is rather an "icon competition", which is

That is kind of the impression I was getting too.
 
> However, as Ken points out, it's a little limitating, and we could
> need a wider approach.

I am going to post an image in p.b.i. of a logo design I was working
on for the TAG. While it may never be adopted by the TAG, and there
are problems with scene design and image size, it does show what a
little imagination can do for representing a concept. Anyway I was
kind of happy with the results even if it doesn't qualify as "logo"
quality material.


-- 
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

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Fabien Mosen wrote:

> For example, I've seen Apple's graphical chart, and, on two busy
> pages, it explains how the logo is constructed, how you should
> put the colors, how you should place it on bags, soft boxes,
> trucks, which font to use, etc, etc...
> 
> I'm trying to find it on the web, but didn't have any success...

I really don't understand what you are talking about so if you find
the site you are talking about I would like to see it. 

-- 
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

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Ken wrote:

> I really don't understand what you are talking about so if you find
> the site you are talking about I would like to see it.

It was not a site, it was in a graphism magazine.  At the time,
I kept a photocopy of it, and, miracle, I managed to find it back
in the huge amount of disorder that surrounds me !

I uploaded it temporarily at :
 http://users.skynet.be/bs936509/apple-gc.jpg

Beware, it's 600 Kb heavy.

Tough our needs are somewhat different (I hardly imagine a POV-Ray
truck !), this shows how a group/company can manage to ensure
graphical coherence in every present and future use of a product.

The term "graphical chart" I used was a direct translation from
the french expression; if someone know the right english expression
for such a document...

Fabien.

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"Ken" <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote :
>
> I really don't understand what you are talking about so if you find
> the site you are talking about I would like to see it.
>

    I think he is talking about a 'theme'. Not just a logo, but a whole
system of integrated graphics and recommended display methods.

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On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 02:03:36 +0200, Rune wrote:
>"Ken" wrote:
>> The last round had all entries restricted
>> to a square aspect ration of 1:1. I see no
>> reason for this.
>
>The logo isn't limited to a square. Only the max width and height of the
>image containing the logo.

>> I think that an aspect ration
>> where the horizontal dimension exceeds the
>> vertical dimension should be allowed.

Why limit it to "horizontal" logos? Vertical shapes are more
eyecatching.

>There must be some limit. The question is how the limit should be defined.

How about the number of pixels? This way non-square logos wouldn't be
penalized as much. A 3.2:1 ratio logo would be presented at 112x35
pixels while a 1:1 ratio logo would be presented at 64x64 pixels. Of
course somebody might abuse this and create a 4096x1 logo, but somehow I
don't think that would be very popular :-).

Of course the logo itself isn't limited to any resolution. The pixel
limit only serves to show how the logo looks at a low resolution.

	hp

-- 
   _  | Peter J. Holzer    | Nicht an Tueren mangelt es,
|_|_) | Sysadmin WSR       | sondern an der Einrichtung (aka Content).
| |   | hjp### [at] wsracat      |    -- Ale### [at] univieacat
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ |       zum Thema Portale in at.linux

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On Sat, 29 Apr 2000 17:54:17 -0700, Ken wrote:
>In an electronic computer environment like POV-Ray and the WWW why would
>you bother with a low resolution version of a logo ? I personally do not
>see the benefit. I mean if we were creating a logo for illustrator
>or some other print based program I could see a reason for it but not
>in a compuer graphics related industry. Reach for the stars..........

Quite the contrary: Printers have very high resolutions (at least in
black and white), but monitors are limited to low resolutions (typically
75 to 100 ppi). If you want your logo to be used at web pages it should
be recognizable at low resolutions.

	hp

-- 
   _  | Peter J. Holzer    | Nicht an Tueren mangelt es,
|_|_) | Sysadmin WSR       | sondern an der Einrichtung (aka Content).
| |   | hjp### [at] wsracat      |    -- Ale### [at] univieacat
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ |       zum Thema Portale in at.linux

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"Peter J. Holzer" wrote:
> "Rune" wrote:
> > There must be some limit. The question
> > is how the limit should be defined.
>
> How about the number of pixels?

I thought about that; it might be a good idea.
Only problem will be that page showing all the logos will look quite messy,
but that's a minor thing...

Greetings,

Rune

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Rune wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
> Before I go on any further with the POV-Ray Logo Contest I would like to
> know the opinion of the POV-Team regarding this. I though maybe one from the
> TAG-Team could inform them and ask them?

 Below you will find the official response from the POV-Team regarding
your logo competition. Items 1-3 identify their position regarding the
competition in general and items 4-6 cover a few legal expectations
they have if they do indeed adopt one of the submissions as an official
logo for the program.

This official statement should be included in your competition rules
so there are no misunderstandings with those participating in it.

With regards to what rules or limitations you may wish to impose on the
competition, from a design stand point, that is up to you and the rest
of the POV-Ray user community to decide for yourselves (see item 2).
The POV-Team has no plans to be involved with this part of the process.

If you need further clarification from me feel free to ask and I will
provide what information I can.

Ken



The official position of the POV-Team for this competition is as follows:

1.) Although the logo competition is not an officially sponsored event,
    the POV-Team is very pleased with the community enthusiasm and is
    interested in finding a logo for POV-Ray. We are looking forward to
    seeing what the users of POV-Ray can offer, and if we find a logo
    that captures our imagination we will be happy to adopt it as an
    official logo for POV-Ray.

2.) The POV-Team will closely watch and monitor the competition
    but will not participate in the management of it. This is
    the sole responsibility of the POV-Ray user community and
    its organizers.

3.) The POV-Team reserves the right to reject any "winning" entry
    they feel does not meet with their expectations. A second or
    third place entry is just as likely as a first place entry
    to be chosen by the POV-Team as their official logo, or none
    at all. This is at the sole discretion of the POV-Team and
    will be decided internally by them.

4.) The POV-Team will be granted the right to use the logo however
    they choose. This includes using the logo at the povray.org web
    site and for the purposes of advertising POV-Ray in any form of
    electronic or printed medium (such as CD covers). Artwork
    submitted to this competition shall remain the property of those
    submitting it but they shall also grant irrevocable equal rights
    to the POV-Team to said material.

5.) The following: "POV-Ray", "Persistence of Vision", "POV-Team" and
    "POV-Help" are trademarks of the POV-Team. Artists contributing to
    this competition are not granted any rights over our trademarks.
    It is desirable that submissions that utilize one of our trademarks
    bear a TM symbol but it is not a requirement. If a TM symbol is
    added it should be done so in a subtle and unobtrusive manner.

6.) The POV-Team reserves the right to modify or change any entry
    they choose as their logo (with permission of the original artist).
    Source code (where applicable) should be provided for each entry
    so that the POV-Team may recreate the logo at any resolution or
    aspect ratio they might need.


-- POV-Team

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Ken wrote:

> The official position of the POV-Team for this competition is as follows:
 
...
> 3.) The POV-Team reserves the right to reject any "winning" entry
>     they feel does not meet with their expectations. A second or
>     third place entry is just as likely as a first place entry
>     to be chosen by the POV-Team as their official logo, or none
>     at all. This is at the sole discretion of the POV-Team and
>     will be decided internally by them.

Very good !  So, we don't need to vote, and could concentrate on
the designs !  (I firmly believe that pseudo-democracy has nothing
to do with any creative process)

Fabien.

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Fabien Mosen wrote:

> > 3.) The POV-Team reserves the right to reject any "winning" entry
> >     they feel does not meet with their expectations. A second or
> >     third place entry is just as likely as a first place entry
> >     to be chosen by the POV-Team as their official logo, or none
> >     at all. This is at the sole discretion of the POV-Team and
> >     will be decided internally by them.
> 
> Very good !  So, we don't need to vote, and could concentrate on
> the designs !  (I firmly believe that pseudo-democracy has nothing
> to do with any creative process)

That is a good point. It is up to the participants to decide if
they want to hold a voting period. It might be good for pointing
the POV-Team towards the popular entries but their decision will
be based on what they themselves like and not what the users say
they have to use. I hate to say it point blank but the POV-Team
may decide not to use any of the logos submitted. Lets call that
a very pessimistic point of view on my part.

The impression I got from them was that they really are interested
to see what comes from this and it is a good opportunity for someone
to contribute something to POV-Ray that very few people will ever get
a chance at. Heck, I might even try to contribute now that I know
there is a chance it will be used by the POV-Team, officialy.

-- 
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

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"Fabien Mosen" wrote:
> > The POV-Team reserves the right to
> > reject any "winning" entry they feel
> > does not meet with their expectations.
> > A second or third place entry is just
> > as likely as a first place entry to be
> > chosen by the POV-Team as their
> > official logo, or none at all. This is
> > at the sole discretion of the POV-Team
> > and will be decided internally by
> > them.
>
> Very good !  So, we don't need to vote,
> and could concentrate on the designs !
> (I firmly believe that pseudo-democracy
> has nothing to do with any creative
> process)

They said that a *second* or *third* place entry is just as likely as a
first place. That suggest that they might look just a little on what the
users think. I think we should still vote. But I think we should save that
discussion to later, and concentrate on the current discussion (general
qualities of the logo).

Greetings,

Rune

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"Ken" wrote:
> Below you will find the official response
> from the POV-Team regarding your logo
> competition.

Thanks!

That's about what I had expected. They support it, but still reserves right
to do as they want. I can accept that... :-)

Greetings,

Rune

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