I went to a fair today: Office '99. It covered everthing from furniture, to
cash registers, to computers, to software (my favorite). I just saw the box
to 3D Studio MAX for the first time in my life. I understand why Lance likes
it so much. I also got a chance to play with 3DS VIZ 3 and MAX 3 for about
an hour. I got a headache. Everything was great, I was even running it on a
500MHz PIII, so the rendering was sweet, but my work felt imprecise. Placing
everything by mouse is quite annoying to someone who types everything
precisely and mathematically in POV script. I know _of_ MAXscript, but I
don't know how to do it. All in all, MAX 3 has a very nice interface, and
lotsa stuff we only dream of in POV-Ray, so it's cool, very cool, especially
because of the fast rendering, although the ocasional faceting annoyed me.

They're having a presentation tommorow which will cover MAX 3 and all the
new stuff it has. I found out that it will cost me $500 to learn MAX from
the people at that stand, since they are the only Autodesk Certified
Trainers in Panama. I'm not too sure on that being such a wise investment.
They had examples of their students work posted on the walls. Blech! They
need to stress texturing and lighting.

I noticed another sad fact: 95% of the people there only cared about VIZ
because of its architechtural capabilities. Naturally, they were even more
interested in Autocad. It seems most people here do architechture-3D, that's
why I've never heard of them. They say that only a few publicitarias
(commercial graphics boutiques?) use MAX, plus national TV.

I mentioned POV-Ray. Everyone there has heard _of_ it. My attempts to
explain more about it resulted in instant boredom and ingnoring from the
'nice' people. As soon as a I returned to 3D Studio, they had my full
attention again.


PS: Every other stand had a pretty blonde lady with a miniskirt and a tight
t-shirt and a nice smile. They really made the fair a complete experience.
=}

Post a reply to this message

> I mentioned POV-Ray. Everyone there has heard _of_ it. My attempts to
> explain more about it resulted in instant boredom and ingnoring from the
> 'nice' people. As soon as a I returned to 3D Studio, they had my full
> attention again.

Isn't that the way though?  When I played in the Jazz band in high school there
were two guitarists, another kid and myself.  I praticed every day and listened
to everything the conductor taught me.  I picked up the nuances of swing and
learned how to quickly learn any sheet music that was put in front of me.

The other kid had a fancy new stratocaster.  He polished it while we practiced,
and occasionally strummed a chord or two.  I bet that kid still has that guitar
sitting in a case somewhere.  Probably has the original strings on it too.

My guitar was a beat up old telecaster that I purchased used.  Sometimes the
cheapo strap I used came loose and the guitar would hit the floor - I brushed it
off and kept playing.  You can get used guitars that are in really good
condition for cheap, since most people don't stick with it.  To me, something
like that which has seen so many years is in a way more precious than the latest
craze shining in the music shop window.

Some people get really upset when I tell them this one:  I once went to see Les
Paul play at a small club in New York city and had him sign my guitar at the end
of the night.  He signed it "Mike, Keep on pickin' Les Paul."  Well, I kept on
pickin and rubbed the signature right off!  So when I tell people that, they
think that's really stupid and think the guitar could have been worth a lot of
money, but to me that was never the point.

Not sure what my point here is though.  Guess I'm just getting nostalgic or
something.  Hmm...maybe I'm just pointing out that some of us are into this
stuff because we love it.  That's not to say that making a buck at it or using
an expensive program somehow spoils that, but just that for some people that's
all there is to it.

-Mike

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I had a guitar once.

Bob

Post a reply to this message

Mike wrote:
> 
> Some people get really upset when I tell them this one:  I once went to see Les
> Paul play at a small club in New York city and had him sign my guitar at the end
> of the night.  He signed it "Mike, Keep on pickin' Les Paul."  Well, I kept on
> pickin and rubbed the signature right off!  So when I tell people that, they
> think that's really stupid and think the guitar could have been worth a lot of
> money, but to me that was never the point.

Nice story !  I think it makes the thing even more precious, since you 
are the only one who still knows what was written ! 
Aaah, guitars *sigh* !  I often pick mine while I watch Povray
rendering;
if I had a quicky crap-line renderer, I wouldn't have the time to pick
it
up so often ;)

Fabien.

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Careful, I think I see Lance coming, and he looks disgruntled... Hide,
quick!

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 2 Oct 1999 00:03:06 -0400, "TonyB"
<ben### [at] panamaphoenixnet> wrote:

>I mentioned POV-Ray. Everyone there has heard _of_ it. My attempts to
>explain more about it resulted in instant boredom and ingnoring from the
>'nice' people. As soon as a I returned to 3D Studio, they had my full
>attention again.

The situation here is even worse. No one has ever heard of POV. When I
explain, they react in one of these three ways:

a) Can in do real-time previews of my anims?
b) What do you mean you have to type everything in?! (dumb look)
c) Do you want MAX 3?

I can understand them... if they can buy MAX for $8 (or burn it for
$2), why should they use POV? And to answer your next question, I will
*never* use MAX because I was personally offended by this software!
Besides, Lance is using it, and he likes Quake (yuck!) :)


Peter Popov
ICQ: 15002700

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Peter Popov wrote:

> Besides, Lance is using it, and he likes Quake (yuck!) :)
> 
> Peter Popov
> ICQ: 15002700

And here I thought Lance was an ok kinda guy but this really tears it !

-- 
Ken Tyler
1100+ Povray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html

Post a reply to this message

TonyB <ben### [at] panamaphoenixnet> wrote:
: I mentioned POV-Ray. Everyone there has heard _of_ it. My attempts to
: explain more about it resulted in instant boredom and ingnoring from the
: 'nice' people. As soon as a I returned to 3D Studio, they had my full
: attention again.

  AFAIK this is a very common phenomenon. Almost all people who use 3DS a
lot, specially if doing it professionally, will tell you a thousand and
one excuses why povray is not good.
  Often this happens although they have seen only a couple of (mediocre)
povray pictures and they have heard that it's a text-based program.

-- 
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/

Post a reply to this message

Peter Popov <pet### [at] usanet> wrote:
: c) Do you want MAX 3?

  The correct answer to this is: "Yes, but I don't have the money".
  Usually that's enough to shut them up.

-- 
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/

Post a reply to this message

On 4 Oct 1999 06:04:27 -0400, Nieminen Juha <war### [at] cctutfi> wrote:

>  AFAIK this is a very common phenomenon. Almost all people who use 3DS a
>lot, specially if doing it professionally, will tell you a thousand and
>one excuses why povray is not good.
>  Often this happens although they have seen only a couple of (mediocre)
>povray pictures and they have heard that it's a text-based program.

  Warp, I've always felt that the software, be it POV-Ray, 3DS, Softimage,
or RenderMan, is but a tool for the artist. It's what that artist *does*
with the software that counts. I've seen some entries in the IRTC that is
more artistic and imaginative than the featured images in CGW (Computer
Graphics World) magazine but they don't devote any print space to freeware
ray tracers :(

  Putting the vast resources of Pixar or ILM into the hands of some joe (or
Jeanne) off the street won't automagically give them artistic talent. That's
a quality that some are born with and others, like me, strive to develop an
eye for.

-- 
Alan
http://www.povray.org - Home of the Persistence of Vision Ray Tracer

Post a reply to this message

That's what _Jimmy_ (James Cuervo) said. He said that they can only teach me
the basics, that is, how to use their software. It's up to me to get good at
it and use my imagination. He stresses illumination and texturing. He really
liked the "Running..." image by Jaime Vives. He said that was an excellent
example of what he was talking about.

>they don't devote any print space to freeware ray tracers :(

They dont? That doesn't sound right. B'P

Post a reply to this message

Nieminen Juha wrote:
> 
> Peter Popov <pet### [at] usanet> wrote:
> : c) Do you want MAX 3?
> 
>   The correct answer to this is: "Yes, but I don't have the money".
>   Usually that's enough to shut them up.

The response I get to that most often is, "I didn't pay for this.  You
wanna copy?"  I have problems with that.

-Mark Gordon

Post a reply to this message

Alan Kong <ako### [at] pacbellno-spamnet> wrote:
: but they don't devote any print space to freeware
: ray tracers :(

  That's because free programs CAN'T be good...

-- 
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/

Post a reply to this message

Nieminen Juha wrote:
> 
> Alan Kong <ako### [at] pacbellno-spamnet> wrote:
> : but they don't devote any print space to freeware
> : ray tracers :(
> 
>   That's because free programs CAN'T be good...

   No it's because people who distribute freeware programs do not pay big
bucks for advertising their product like the commercial software providers
do. It's economics pure and simple. It is a good thing that word of mouth
works. I would never have found POV-Ray had someone not posted a raytraced
image on a local BBS a few years ago. I got curious about the image and
finaly found the software that produced it. The rest is history :)

-- 
Ken Tyler
1100+ Povray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html

Post a reply to this message

Actually I gave a few lectures and demonstrations about Povray in the last
years and didn't have this kind of problem, even with CG professionals. I've
also received more than encouraging emails from people working in CG companies
(software, games,  movies) who may have been a little bored with their usual
professional fare. Perhaps this was due to the fact that I put the emphasis on
the artistical possibilities of povray and not on its value as a 3DS or Maya
competitor. Most of the people who use professional software use it as a tool
that allows them to work fast and make money, so it's no surprise they don't
really care about amateur tools. It's a little like asking a professional
truck driver what he/she thinks of your beautiful 50's vintage car in terms of
trucking performance : he/she may despise it as a professional vehicle, and
like it anyway because it's a cool car. In the same way, a CG professional may
not care about povray as a 3D programme and yet enjoy your povray output
because of its artistical merit (and sometimes be impressed by the fact that
it was done with something 100% free).

Gilles Tran

Nieminen Juha wrote:

> TonyB <ben### [at] panamaphoenixnet> wrote:
> : I mentioned POV-Ray. Everyone there has heard _of_ it. My attempts to
> : explain more about it resulted in instant boredom and ingnoring from the
> : 'nice' people. As soon as a I returned to 3D Studio, they had my full
> : attention again.
>
>   AFAIK this is a very common phenomenon. Almost all people who use 3DS a
> lot, specially if doing it professionally, will tell you a thousand and
> one excuses why povray is not good.
>   Often this happens although they have seen only a couple of (mediocre)
> povray pictures and they have heard that it's a text-based program.
>
> --
> main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
> ):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/

Post a reply to this message

Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote
>  I would never have found POV-Ray had someone not posted a raytraced
> image on a local BBS a few years ago. I got curious about the image and
> finaly found the software that produced it. The rest is history :)

So it all started with a search for links? Hmmm...

I found POV by looking for animation tools. I was doing animated GIFs by
hand (making money at it too! Short term career that was though) when I
found a demo of some commercial program. By doing a search for the terms I
found in the help file (Ray Tracing, CSG, rendering) I found the link to
povray.org.

    The rest is mystory.

Post a reply to this message

I found POV-Ray through another DOS based modeller which had direct POV-Ray
1.0 ouput :)  It recommended it for rendering over the modeller's renderer!

So I seeked out this mystically POV-Ray on the net a year later and found
it!  I then ordered the Offical POV-Ray Raytracing CD-ROM and started my POV
Experience.

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:10:34 -0400, "Buckaroo Bill"
<the### [at] earthlinknet> wrote:

>I found POV by looking for animation tools. I was doing animated GIFs by
>hand (making money at it too! Short term career that was though) when I
>found a demo of some commercial program. By doing a search for the terms I
>found in the help file (Ray Tracing, CSG, rendering) I found the link to
>povray.org.

  Bill, I'm going to re-start this thread (sorry!) in povray.off-topic.

-- 
Alan
http://www.povray.org - Home of the Persistence of Vision Ray Tracer

Post a reply to this message

Alan Kong <ako### [at] pacbellNO-SPAMnet> wrote
>
>   Bill, I'm going to re-start this thread (sorry!) in povray.off-topic.
>

    I considered that, but since it was about finding POV... nonetheless, it
seems to have survived the transplant. No harm done.

Post a reply to this message

Alan Kong <ako### [at] pacbellNO-SPAMnet> wrote:
: but they don't devote any print space to freeware
: ray tracers :(

Actually, CGW is what got me into 3D art.  About a year ago a subscription
of CGW was floating around our office.  I started flipping through it
looking at the images wishing I had a few thousand dollars so I could
afford the software and hardware to do such art.  At the time my only
knowledge of the area was from tv coverage of companies like ILM.

But in that particular issue of CGW there was mention of POV-Ray, that the
software was free, and with the URL.  So I ventured over in disbelief
thinking it was some gimic to sell a $10,000 software package.  Downloaded
POV-Ray.  Played around with it a bit.  And I've been hooked on 3D art ever
since.

- Jerome

Post a reply to this message

On 5 Oct 1999 17:40:02 -0400, Jerome Waters <hjw### [at] whqcsarcom> wrote:

>But in that particular issue of CGW there was mention of POV-Ray, that the
>software was free, and with the URL.

  Hi, Jerome. Was that the issue that had a featured article on radiosity?
They made some errors when they mentioned POV-Ray in that paragraph. First
they referred to it as shareware and then as public domain, neither of which
is accurate. I remember bringing up the issue with Dan Farmer [POV-Team] at
the time but can't recall if I ever sent CGW a correction by e-mail.

  Still, CGW is a nice publication and I've subscribed to it for several
years (did I renew this year??). They cover a lot of movie CG effects, which
is where a lot of my (amateur) interest lies.

-- 
Alan
http://www.povray.org - Home of the Persistence of Vision Ray Tracer

Post a reply to this message

I was made aware of POV by a friend who had an Amiga and was
using Imagine and Real3D, he told me that there was a
package for the PC that could do Ray Tracing, he also said
that you sometimes get these packages on the front of
magazines.  I bought the magazines for ages but never saw
POV mentioned.  The magazine disappeared from the shops so I
didn't bother any more.  

Then years later I got a new PC and an internet account, I
did a quick search somewhere for shareware and POV, and
BINGO there was a whole site dedicated to it.  The rest is
"time spent ray tracing while real life, family, friends and
my career all go to rack and ruin". 

Buckaroo Bill wrote:
> 
> Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote
> >  I would never have found POV-Ray had someone not posted a raytraced
> > image on a local BBS a few years ago. I got curious about the image and
> > finaly found the software that produced it. The rest is history :)
> 
> So it all started with a search for links? Hmmm...
> 
> I found POV by looking for animation tools. I was doing animated GIFs by
> hand (making money at it too! Short term career that was though) when I
> found a demo of some commercial program. By doing a search for the terms I
> found in the help file (Ray Tracing, CSG, rendering) I found the link to
> povray.org.
> 
>     The rest is mystory.

-- 
Cheers
Steve              email mailto:sjl### [at] ndirectcouk

%HAV-A-NICEDAY Error not enough coffee  0 pps. 

web http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~sjlen/

or  http://start.at/zero-pps

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