Hi,
I bought a text-book for one of my college courses, and lo-and-behold, one
of my renderings (Grade One), was in the book.  I was so surprised and
happy,
considering it was the only non-winning image among other IRTC
winners/runner ups.

The book is called: Computers:
Tools for an Information Age 6th Edition by H.L. Capron
ISBN: 0-201-61211-9
http://www.prenhall.com/capron

Problem is, I was never told that my image would be appearing in the book.
Is this somehow breaking one of the IRTC rules or violating my copyrights?
All the files
included for the submission included a statement from  me regarding
permission of image/file, usage.
I have written on my homepage's gallery and in the IRTC files (.POV, .TXT,
etc.) that if
you wish to use the image, you must first contact me to get my permission.

Some of the images included in the book are (from the IRTC):

- Roger, Gary and Bob by Jeane-Marie Haerens and Fabien Mosen
- Untitled (image of Ice Cream Cone) by Nathan O'Brien (
- Gomusic by Gena Obukhov (not sure if this is from IRTC)
- Toco Toucan by Ian and Ethel MacKay
- Pocketwatch by Kevin Odhner
- Untitled (bucket of Sea Shells) by Steve Gowers (Summer theme)
- Untitled (ship image) by Nathan O'Brien (Elements theme)
- Grade One by Gautam Lad
- Untitled (plane image) by Ian Armstrong (Flight theme)
- Admiral Watch by Adrian Baumann
- Ode to Prianesi by Nathan O'Brien

My question to these artists: Did you receive any notice from the
publisher/author? If not,
do you think they violated your copyrights by using the image without your
permission?

Also, I don't plan on taking any legal action or anything; it's just that
I'd like to know (in advance)
where my work is being used.


Thanks!
Bye!

--
Gautam N. Lad
ICQ #: 7196672

Post a reply to this message

WOAH... this could be interesting!

Copyright rules can be found here:

http://www.irtc.org/copy.html

The use of the image(s) is not an infringement if the book was somehow
promoting the IRTC competition and its associated activities, or if the
image was being used by a sponsor to demonstrate their products/services
(such as quality of printing by a sponsor that is a printing service).

Otherwise, I'd seriously think of finding out how the hell it got in that
book!!!

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 26 Sep 1999 22:39:03 -0400, "Gautam N. Lad" <vnl### [at] mynacom> wrote:

>I bought a text-book for one of my college courses, and lo-and-behold, one
>of my renderings (Grade One), was in the book.  I was so surprised and
>happy, considering it was the only non-winning image among other IRTC
>winners/runner ups.
>
>The book is called: Computers:
>Tools for an Information Age 6th Edition by H.L. Capron
>ISBN: 0-201-61211-9
>http://www.prenhall.com/capron
>
>Problem is, I was never told that my image would be appearing in the book.
>Is this somehow breaking one of the IRTC rules or violating my copyrights?

  Gautam, I read the IRTC copyright rules at http://www.irtc.org/copy.html
and, IMO, I believe your copyright on your artwork has been violated by the
publisher and the author, H.L. Capron. You might contact Nathan O'Brien and
Fabien Mosen and ask them if their artwork has also been used without their
permission. They frequent these groups and their e-mail addresses should
also be contained in the comment descriptions that accompany their IRTC
entries.

  I don't know what recourse you have but I would first contact the
publisher by e-mail and save all e-correspondence. If they do not reply to
e-mail then I would write a letter and send it by certified mail accompanied
by a return receipt (if you are in the U.S.) to maintain a record of
correspondence. At this point in time, I would not simply grant the
publisher permission to continue to use your artwork because this might set
some sort of precedent for the other artists involved. While it might be
unlikely that you could force the publisher to pull the books from
distribution without hiring an attorney, you and the other artists might
consider accepting a free copy of the book as a gesture of goodwill, or in
your case, a full refund of the price you paid for the book. I would also
ask that any future editions of the book adhere to the copyright notice
displayed at the above-mentioned IRTC page.

  You might also e-mail Chris Cason to inform him about this book since the
IRTC also has certain rights regarding use of submitted artwork.

  This is what I would do but you might discuss it with others before
proceeding, as I am not a copyright specialist or an attorney.

-- 
Alan
http://www.povray.org - Home of the Persistence of Vision Ray Tracer

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 27 Sep 1999 13:40:37 +1000, "Lance Birch" <lan### [at] usanet>
wrote:

>The use of the image(s) is not an infringement if the book was somehow
>promoting the IRTC competition and its associated activities, or if the
>image was being used by a sponsor to demonstrate their products/services
>(such as quality of printing by a sponsor that is a printing service).

  Gautam said in his post that it is a college textbook. Judging by its
title it probably doesn't contain advertising or promotion of a product
between its covers.

>Otherwise, I'd seriously think of finding out how the hell it got in that
>book!!!

  The author either downloaded it from the IRTC pages or got the images from
an official IRTC CD-ROM, which is also a copyright violation. These images
are not public domain and someone else is profiting from Gautam's work.

-- 
Alan
http://www.povray.org - Home of the Persistence of Vision Ray Tracer

Post a reply to this message

Both interesting and disturbing.  More so interesting to me though.
Now I wish I had entered a lot of things into the IRTC ; )
The fact there is a considerable number from a single source like a
IRTC CD is odd in that it would (or should) have been obvious of the
copyrights.

Bob

Alan Kong <ako### [at] pacbellNO-SPAMnet> wrote in message
news:U=zuNxpJIpWFysmH5I96T5Dcai0w@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 27 Sep 1999 13:40:37 +1000, "Lance Birch"
<lan### [at] usanet>
> wrote:
>
> >The use of the image(s) is not an infringement if the book was
somehow
> >promoting the IRTC competition and its associated activities, or if
the
> >image was being used by a sponsor to demonstrate their
products/services
> >(such as quality of printing by a sponsor that is a printing
service).
>
>   Gautam said in his post that it is a college textbook. Judging by
its
> title it probably doesn't contain advertising or promotion of a
product
> between its covers.
>
> >Otherwise, I'd seriously think of finding out how the hell it got
in that
> >book!!!
>
>   The author either downloaded it from the IRTC pages or got the
images from
> an official IRTC CD-ROM, which is also a copyright violation. These
images
> are not public domain and someone else is profiting from Gautam's
work.
>
> --
> Alan
> http://www.povray.org - Home of the Persistence of Vision Ray Tracer

Post a reply to this message

I agree totally, action should be taken on this immediately.

The other authors should be contacted also.

Post a reply to this message

Alan Kong wrote:
>   Gautam, I read the IRTC copyright rules at http://www.irtc.org/copy.html
> and, IMO, I believe your copyright on your artwork has been violated by the
> publisher and the author, H.L. Capron. You might contact Nathan O'Brien and
> Fabien Mosen and ask them if their artwork has also been used without their
> permission.

 I've been informed by Gautam's message on IRTC-list, and I'm very
upset,
because I NEVER gave such permission !!
 I suppose that we must first get the opinion of every injured artist
before deciding how we must react.
 Wait and see...

Fabien.

Post a reply to this message

For factual information of copyright law, it's enforcement, and possible
remedies within the USA see the following page:

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/

It will of course vary from country to country but the info here should be
enough to let you know where you stand from a general legal point of view
without first having to contact a lawyer for this type of information.

There is more general information on the subject on the copyright FAQ and
resources page at:

http://www.aimnet.com/~carroll/copyright/faq-home.html

-- 
Ken Tyler
1100+ Povray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html

Post a reply to this message

Since the US is usually regarded as litigation heaven, I would say: Sue
them! You can finally make some money with your hobby!

Now, jokes aside, I actually mean that quite seriously, because of the
following reason:

They should not get away with it. If you don't sue them, they'll do it
again. If it is a large publisher, you'll probably get some nice punitive
damages too.


Greetings,
Johannes (who isn't an attourney)

Post a reply to this message

Johannes Hubert wrote:
> 
> Since the US is usually regarded as litigation heaven, I would say: Sue
> them! You can finally make some money with your hobby!
> 
> Now, jokes aside, I actually mean that quite seriously, because of the
> following reason:
> 
> They should not get away with it. If you don't sue them, they'll do it
> again. If it is a large publisher, you'll probably get some nice punitive
> damages too.

The problem is that it seems that some images comes from non-US people
(Nathan O'Brien, myself,...), and while it is clear that they did
something
wrong, suing them from here is not an easy matter.

Is there any known case of such multi-country copyright infringement of
net-availiable material ?

Fabien.

Post a reply to this message

As I said, I am not an attourney, but I think that the law of the country
where the infringement happens applies, in this case the country where the
book is published.
I agree that it would be much too tedious to sue for you, if this has to
happen in the US.
But if US citizens decide to sue, you could probably hook up with them (some
sort of class action lawsuit).

Johannes.

Fabien <fab### [at] skynetbe> wrote in message
news:37EF3FC1.E31C91BE@skynet.be...
> Johannes Hubert wrote:
> >
> > Since the US is usually regarded as litigation heaven, I would say: Sue
> > them! You can finally make some money with your hobby!
> >
> > Now, jokes aside, I actually mean that quite seriously, because of the
> > following reason:
> >
> > They should not get away with it. If you don't sue them, they'll do it
> > again. If it is a large publisher, you'll probably get some nice
punitive
> > damages too.
>
> The problem is that it seems that some images comes from non-US people
> (Nathan O'Brien, myself,...), and while it is clear that they did
> something
> wrong, suing them from here is not an easy matter.
>
> Is there any known case of such multi-country copyright infringement of
> net-availiable material ?
>
> Fabien.

Post a reply to this message

Fabien wrote:
> 
> Johannes Hubert wrote:
> >
> > Since the US is usually regarded as litigation heaven, I would say: Sue
> > them! You can finally make some money with your hobby!
> >
> > Now, jokes aside, I actually mean that quite seriously, because of the
> > following reason:
> >
> > They should not get away with it. If you don't sue them, they'll do it
> > again. If it is a large publisher, you'll probably get some nice punitive
> > damages too.
> 
> The problem is that it seems that some images comes from non-US people
> (Nathan O'Brien, myself,...), and while it is clear that they did
> something
> wrong, suing them from here is not an easy matter.
> 
> Is there any known case of such multi-country copyright infringement of
> net-availiable material ?
> 
> Fabien.

  I again urge the involved parties to obtain informed information on
this subject. Specificaly of interest to your case would be sections
2.8 and 2.9 at the URL listed below where it details a publishers fair
and reasonable right to publish material without the copyright holders
consent for educational purposes.

ftp://ftp.aimnet.com/pub/users/carroll/law/copyright/faq/part2

See also the following page for information regarding copyright law
where it concerns international treaties signed for the protection
of copyright holders and how it entitles you to fair protection
against copyright enfringement by countries that have signed said
international copyright treaties:

ftp://ftp.aimnet.com/pub/users/carroll/law/copyright/faq/part4

The previously sited page for US copyright law title 17 gives you
details on specific courses of action regarding remedaition of
copyright enfringment:  http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/


  In my own interpertation of what I have so far read you are not
likely to have a strong enough case to win a monetary award for
presumed damages arising from unauthorized use of your materials.
I only say this because of the way that they have been used for
educational purposes. Had your images been used as part of a book
that showcases computer generated images and it's sole purpose
is to make a clear profit of the sales of the book for the images
it contains then you would have a strong case against the authors
and the publisher. In this case the profit is being made instead
off of the intellectual content of the book and not the images
used to illustrate the concepts of it's content. Having said this
however I am no lawyer and I know little about your specific legal
right in this regard.


-- 
Ken Tyler
1100+ Povray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html

Post a reply to this message

Ken wrote:

>   I again urge the involved parties to obtain informed information on
> this subject. Specificaly of interest to your case would be sections
> 2.8 and 2.9 at the URL listed below where it details a publishers fair
> and reasonable right to publish material without the copyright holders
> consent for educational purposes.

The document clearly states "NON-PROFIT educational purposes", which is
very different from "educational purposes".  For example, it could be
a teacher using the image to illustrate a lesson, as a slide, or printed
in something that the students get *at cost*.

The Prenhall book is hardly in the "non-profit" category...

Fabien.

Post a reply to this message

Johannes Hubert wrote:
> 
> As I said, I am not an attourney, but I think that the law of the country
> where the infringement happens applies, in this case the country where the
> book is published.
> I agree that it would be much too tedious to sue for you, if this has to
> happen in the US.
> But if US citizens decide to sue, you could probably hook up with them (some
> sort of class action lawsuit).
> 
> Johannes.
> 

Sueing assumes that the publisher is not all together bona fide. Now this is not
an elegant thing, but I don't really think the publisher here intentionally
broke some copyright-law. Perhaps a good first step would be to simply write a
(e-)letter, stating that they have used one (or more) of _your_ products and how
this could happen and then see how they react. It's good to not let this go
unnoticed. If the publisher has had a chance to defend his actions you can
decide what happens next.
Of course, chances are they'll ignore you, in which case sueing in court might
not really be an option but nailing them to a virtual wall on the internet (by
all sorts of ways) is! I think they're are a lot of people who'll support you
then.

Good luck,

Remco

Post a reply to this message

Fabien <fab### [at] skynetbe> wrote in message
news:37EF5163.3E5F0138@skynet.be...
> Ken wrote:
>
> >   I again urge the involved parties to obtain informed information on
> > this subject. Specificaly of interest to your case would be sections
> > 2.8 and 2.9 at the URL listed below where it details a publishers fair
> > and reasonable right to publish material without the copyright holders
> > consent for educational purposes.
>
> The document clearly states "NON-PROFIT educational purposes", which is
> very different from "educational purposes".  For example, it could be
> a teacher using the image to illustrate a lesson, as a slide, or printed
> in something that the students get *at cost*.
>
> The Prenhall book is hardly in the "non-profit" category...

I agree with Fabien here: A book by Prentice Hall is not for "educational
purposes" it is to make profit (for P.H.). That this book is then used in an
educational environment is a different story.

If it had been a lecture-script, probably compiled by a professor or a
student and sold for only the costs of copying and distribution, now that
would be a different story.

BTW: I know that it can be very dangerous for an U.S. citizen to give legal
advice without beeing accredited at the bar, so people, look out and at
least add a "I am not a lawyer or attourney" to your posts in this thread.

Johannes (who isn't a lawyer or attourney, and who doesn't really care,
since he doesn't live in the US... ;-)

Post a reply to this message

Johannes Hubert wrote:

> BTW: I know that it can be very dangerous for an U.S. citizen to give legal
> advice without beeing accredited at the bar, so people, look out and at
> least add a "I am not a lawyer or attourney" to your posts in this thread.
> 
> Johannes (who isn't a lawyer or attourney, and who doesn't really care,
> since he doesn't live in the US... ;-)

I have given the best advice I can think of - Seek knowlege from informed
sources such as from the sites I gave URL's for. Other than that I ain't
no lawyer (I previously made that same disclaimer) and have offered about
all I am going to on this matter. I would like to hear the outcome of any
actions that may be taken against the publisher and or author of the book.

-- 
Ken Tyler
1100+ Povray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html

Post a reply to this message

Maybe I'm mistaken but I happened to think about this and it occured
to me that someone was asking about using renders in a text book here
or somewhere quite a long while ago, half year give or take a few
months perhaps?  I would say I'm imagining it but I don't think so.

Bob

Gautam N. Lad <vnl### [at] mynacom> wrote in message
news:37eed7b2@news.povray.org...
> Hi,
> I bought a text-book for one of my college courses, and
lo-and-behold, one
> of my renderings (Grade One), was in the book.  I was so surprised
and
> happy,
> considering it was the only non-winning image among other IRTC
> winners/runner ups.
>
> The book is called: Computers:
> Tools for an Information Age 6th Edition by H.L. Capron
> ISBN: 0-201-61211-9
> http://www.prenhall.com/capron
>
> Problem is, I was never told that my image would be appearing in the
book.
> Is this somehow breaking one of the IRTC rules or violating my
copyrights?
> All the files
> included for the submission included a statement from  me regarding
> permission of image/file, usage.
> I have written on my homepage's gallery and in the IRTC files (.POV,
.TXT,
> etc.) that if
> you wish to use the image, you must first contact me to get my
permission.
>
> Some of the images included in the book are (from the IRTC):
>
> - Roger, Gary and Bob by Jeane-Marie Haerens and Fabien Mosen
> - Untitled (image of Ice Cream Cone) by Nathan O'Brien (
> - Gomusic by Gena Obukhov (not sure if this is from IRTC)
> - Toco Toucan by Ian and Ethel MacKay
> - Pocketwatch by Kevin Odhner
> - Untitled (bucket of Sea Shells) by Steve Gowers (Summer theme)
> - Untitled (ship image) by Nathan O'Brien (Elements theme)
> - Grade One by Gautam Lad
> - Untitled (plane image) by Ian Armstrong (Flight theme)
> - Admiral Watch by Adrian Baumann
> - Ode to Prianesi by Nathan O'Brien
>
> My question to these artists: Did you receive any notice from the
> publisher/author? If not,
> do you think they violated your copyrights by using the image
without your
> permission?
>
> Also, I don't plan on taking any legal action or anything; it's just
that
> I'd like to know (in advance)
> where my work is being used.
>
>
> Thanks!
> Bye!
>
> --
> Gautam N. Lad
> ICQ #: 7196672
>
>
>

Post a reply to this message

On the one hand, I would have been honored to make it to print.
On the other hand, is there a way to make it more clear the uses we would
allow of our artwork.

Suppose we both:
A) Affirm the "I agree with the standard IRTC copyright" agreement each time,
     AND
B) Put "Copyright Joe Raytracer. 1999 All rights reserved."

Thus, it would be quite difficult to sue IRTC given A), but any other user
would have to explain why they used our image containing B).

Gautam N. Lad wrote:

> Hi,
> I bought a text-book for one of my college courses, and lo-and-behold, one
> of my renderings (Grade One), was in the book.  I was so surprised and
> happy,
> considering it was the only non-winning image among other IRTC
> winners/runner ups.
>
> The book is called: Computers:
> Tools for an Information Age 6th Edition by H.L. Capron
> ISBN: 0-201-61211-9
> http://www.prenhall.com/capron
>
> Problem is, I was never told that my image would be appearing in the book.
> Is this somehow breaking one of the IRTC rules or violating my copyrights?
> All the files
> included for the submission included a statement from  me regarding
> permission of image/file, usage.
> I have written on my homepage's gallery and in the IRTC files (.POV, .TXT,
> etc.) that if
> you wish to use the image, you must first contact me to get my permission.
>
> Some of the images included in the book are (from the IRTC):
>
> - Roger, Gary and Bob by Jeane-Marie Haerens and Fabien Mosen
> - Untitled (image of Ice Cream Cone) by Nathan O'Brien (
> - Gomusic by Gena Obukhov (not sure if this is from IRTC)
> - Toco Toucan by Ian and Ethel MacKay
> - Pocketwatch by Kevin Odhner
> - Untitled (bucket of Sea Shells) by Steve Gowers (Summer theme)
> - Untitled (ship image) by Nathan O'Brien (Elements theme)
> - Grade One by Gautam Lad
> - Untitled (plane image) by Ian Armstrong (Flight theme)
> - Admiral Watch by Adrian Baumann
> - Ode to Prianesi by Nathan O'Brien
>
> My question to these artists: Did you receive any notice from the
> publisher/author? If not,
> do you think they violated your copyrights by using the image without your
> permission?
>
> Also, I don't plan on taking any legal action or anything; it's just that
> I'd like to know (in advance)
> where my work is being used.
>
> Thanks!
> Bye!
>
> --
> Gautam N. Lad
> ICQ #: 7196672

Post a reply to this message

>Of course, chances are they'll ignore you, in which case sueing in court
might
>not really be an option but nailing them to a virtual wall on the internet
(by
>all sorts of ways) is! I think they're are a lot of people who'll support
you
>then.


Count me in. I'll help all I can. =)

Post a reply to this message

> The problem is that it seems that some images comes from non-US people
> (Nathan O'Brien, myself,...), and while it is clear that they did
> something
> wrong, suing them from here is not an easy matter.

Are any of the images by people in the US?  I find it interesting that whenever
any of these things comes up, I'm not one of the artists being ripped off.

I don't think anyone should make excuses for this publisher.  What they did is
blatent copyright infringement.  There's no other way an artists can be ripped
off when it comes to still images, other than perhaps a billboard ad.  There
are standard fees in this industry for the use of images, and they should have
sought out the artists and made agreements to use the images and provide
compensation.  I know for magazines it used to be $50 for B&W images and $100
or so for color.  I would think books would have similiar fees.

I understand why some people would feel honored to be published in a book, but
when you stop and think about what's really going on you can't help feel
robbed.  Would the author(s) of that book feel honored if you copied every page
into a word processor and started selling copies of the book yourself?  Imagine
what this world would be like if everyone gave the same amount of credit to the
work people do as so many do to the work an artist puts into his/her work.

I've never had to deal with this situation (yet), but if it happened to me I
would be making a huge stink about it.

-Mike

Post a reply to this message

> I bought a text-book for one of my college courses, and lo-and-behold, one
> of my renderings (Grade One), was in the book.  I was so surprised and
> happy,
> considering it was the only non-winning image among other IRTC
> winners/runner ups.
>  [ ... ]


Hmm, would make a good /. article!
Anybody?

                                                            - Marco


_________________________

 Marco Bonetti
 marco (at) urbanet (dot) ch

Post a reply to this message

Alan Kong wrote:
> 
>   I don't know what recourse you have but I would first contact the
> publisher by e-mail and save all e-correspondence. If they do not
> reply to e-mail then I would write a letter and send it by certified
> mail accompanied by a return receipt (if you are in the U.S.) to
> maintain a record of correspondence.

I would like to point out that Prentice-Hall probably has no idea that
the images are not the work of H. L. Capron; in the Land of the
Man-Eating Lawyers, knowingly publishing plagiarized work is not worth
the risk.

Regards,
John

Post a reply to this message

Bob Hughes wrote:
> 
> Both interesting and disturbing.  More so interesting to me though.
> Now I wish I had entered a lot of things into the IRTC ; )
> The fact there is a considerable number from a single source like a
> IRTC CD is odd in that it would (or should) have been obvious of the
> copyrights.

The author may have gotten the notion that the ostensibly educational
purpose of the book allows him to use other people's work without
paying for it.

Regards,
John
-- 
ICQ: 46085459

Post a reply to this message

Gautam N. Lad wrote in message <37eed7b2@news.povray.org>...
>Hi,
>I bought a text-book for one of my college courses, and lo-and-behold, one
>of my renderings (Grade One), was in the book.  I was so surprised and
>happy,
>considering it was the only non-winning image among other IRTC
>winners/runner ups.
>
>The book is called: Computers:
>Tools for an Information Age 6th Edition by H.L. Capron
>ISBN: 0-201-61211-9
>http://www.prenhall.com/capron
>
>Problem is, I was never told that my image would be appearing in the book.
>Is this somehow breaking one of the IRTC rules or violating my copyrights?
>All the files
>included for the submission included a statement from  me regarding
>permission of image/file, usage.
>I have written on my homepage's gallery and in the IRTC files (.POV, .TXT,
>etc.) that if
>you wish to use the image, you must first contact me to get my permission.
>
>Some of the images included in the book are (from the IRTC):
>
>- Roger, Gary and Bob by Jeane-Marie Haerens and Fabien Mosen
>- Untitled (image of Ice Cream Cone) by Nathan O'Brien (
>- Gomusic by Gena Obukhov (not sure if this is from IRTC)
>- Toco Toucan by Ian and Ethel MacKay
>- Pocketwatch by Kevin Odhner
>- Untitled (bucket of Sea Shells) by Steve Gowers (Summer theme)
>- Untitled (ship image) by Nathan O'Brien (Elements theme)
>- Grade One by Gautam Lad
>- Untitled (plane image) by Ian Armstrong (Flight theme)
>- Admiral Watch by Adrian Baumann
>- Ode to Prianesi by Nathan O'Brien
>
>My question to these artists: Did you receive any notice from the
>publisher/author? If not,
>do you think they violated your copyrights by using the image without your
>permission?
>
>Also, I don't plan on taking any legal action or anything; it's just that
>I'd like to know (in advance)
>where my work is being used.


After reading this thread, I checked my Computer Science textbook, and it
appears that POV-Ray is a very popular program for generating artwork for
these books.  However, the cover artwork in question in this case was
created by the author of the book, and no copyright violations are involved.

Mark

Post a reply to this message

Mark Wagner wrote:

> 
> After reading this thread, I checked my Computer Science textbook, and it
> appears that POV-Ray is a very popular program for generating artwork for
> these books.  However, the cover artwork in question in this case was
> created by the author of the book, and no copyright violations are involved.
> 
> Mark

Raises an interesting question. If someone uses "your" source code to
render an image on "their" computer is the image that is produced now
the property of the computer owner who produces the image ?

I know what you are going to say but I just say prove it :)

-- 
Ken Tyler
1100+ Povray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html

Post a reply to this message

Ken wrote:
> Raises an interesting question. If someone uses "your" source code to
> render an image on "their" computer is the image that is produced now
> the property of the computer owner who produces the image ?

 That's a very special case, and I can't think of any comparison in the
art field.  At worse, you could always consider Pov code as
automatically
copyrighted, just like any programming code.
 If someone commercially uses 100% of your code, you'll be upset.
 If someone commercially uses 1% of your code, you'll probably don't
care.
 Where's the limit ?  Where between "learning from existing code and
reusing
bits of it" and "stealing someone else's code" ?
 
 Many IRTC participants (including myself) prevents the re-rendering
of their images by changing the sources in various ways : missing
objects,
different maps,...

Fabien.

Post a reply to this message

I'd like to point out an interesting thing.

I did a bit of digging on the author.  Turns out that his first book in the
series got this as a review by Booknews Inc (April 1, 1990):

"A text for introductory computing courses, updated and expanded in the
areas of applications and the end-user, communications, and software and
hardware. Includes loads of color pictures and a buyer's guide to personal
computers. No bibliography."

The specifically state No bibliography which kind of leads me to beleive
that perhaps this author isn't totally careful about his sources and
copyrights.

Also, this series of books are quite pricey, ~$60 US - hardly non-profit!

So, I'd say contact all other artists if possible, get their opinions and
that of the ppl at IRTC, then decide what to do from there.  Ken had some
nice links on Copyright Law so check them out too.  In my opinion, they've
breeched your copyright and they are not using the book "non-profit".  Of
course I'm not a legal person clothed in black :)

Post a reply to this message

Fabien <fab### [at] skynetbe> wrote in message
news:37F### [at] skynetbe...
> Ken wrote:
> > Raises an interesting question. If someone uses "your" source code to
> > render an image on "their" computer is the image that is produced now
> > the property of the computer owner who produces the image ?
>
>  That's a very special case, and I can't think of any comparison in the
> art field.  At worse, you could always consider Pov code as
> automatically
> copyrighted, just like any programming code.
[snip]

That's not really the case (in the US):
Source needs a specific copyright statement (with year) to make it
copyrighted. If you publish your source without such a statement, it will
fall into the public domain.
But if you publish it with a statement, for example something like "If you
use the source or parts of it to render an image, you may not publish the
resulting image in any commercial way.. bla, bla..." then nobody can legally
use the image created by the source in any such way as you exclude it in the
copyright note.

Johannes.

Post a reply to this message

Fabien wrote:
> 
> Ken wrote:
> > Raises an interesting question. If someone uses "your" source code to
> > render an image on "their" computer is the image that is produced now
> > the property of the computer owner who produces the image ?
> 
>  That's a very special case, and I can't think of any comparison in the
> art field. 

Sure. Look at conceptual art. The walldrawings of Sol Lewitt for instance.
They're basically just a script, a 'scene-file' describing exactly how the final
drawing should look, what materials should be used etc. Which doesn't mean
you're free to copy it everywhere. I believe you have to buy a license and then
maybe even the master will supervise the drawing (if he's still alive).

I'm not very good at copyrights and such but I believe you're talking about
intellectual ownership here (or whatever you would call it).

Remco

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Marco Bonetti wrote:
> 
> Hmm, would make a good /. article!
> Anybody?

The combination of copyright on postings and the private news server
makes that difficult unless Gautam copies his original posting to a web
page /. can link to.  In the meantime it's probably best for the
aggrieved to contact the publisher before contacting the media.  I don't
suppose anyone has heard anything from the publisher in the last few
days?

-Mark Gordon

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On Tue, 28 Sep 1999 12:44:38 +0200, Johannes Hubert wrote:
>That's not really the case (in the US):
>Source needs a specific copyright statement (with year) to make it
>copyrighted. If you publish your source without such a statement, it will
>fall into the public domain.

That's not true.  Hasn't been true for years.  See
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

Post a reply to this message

> drawing should look, what materials should be used etc. Which doesn't mean
> you're free to copy it everywhere. I believe you have to buy a license and
then
> maybe even the master will supervise the drawing (if he's still alive).
>
> I'm not very good at copyrights and such but I believe you're talking
about
> intellectual ownership here (or whatever you would call it).
>
> Remco

Yes, that's correct, the source is still copyright and you are entitled to
all ownership because you created it.

Post a reply to this message

Ron Parker <par### [at] fwicom> wrote in message
news:37f0c03b@news.povray.org...
> On Tue, 28 Sep 1999 12:44:38 +0200, Johannes Hubert wrote:
> >That's not really the case (in the US):
> >Source needs a specific copyright statement (with year) to make it
> >copyrighted. If you publish your source without such a statement, it will
> >fall into the public domain.
>
> That's not true.  Hasn't been true for years.  See
> http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

Looks like my knowledge has been outdated for about 10 years :-)

Johannes.

Post a reply to this message

Better yet, if you don't sue them and at least get some sort of credit,
people will think he's the actual artist and unless they found the image on
IRTC before the book was published, they'll think you copied off of him.

Stupid, stupid world!

--
This message brought to you by:
-=< Ian (the### [at] hotmailcom >=-

Please visit my site at http://spectere2000.cjb.net! :)

Johannes Hubert <jhu### [at] algonetse> wrote in message
news:37ef3a01@news.povray.org...
> Since the US is usually regarded as litigation heaven, I would say: Sue
> them! You can finally make some money with your hobby!
>
> Now, jokes aside, I actually mean that quite seriously, because of the
> following reason:
>
> They should not get away with it. If you don't sue them, they'll do it
> again. If it is a large publisher, you'll probably get some nice punitive
> damages too.
>
>
> Greetings,
> Johannes (who isn't an attourney)
>
>
>
>

Post a reply to this message

Mark Wagner <mar### [at] gtenet> wrote in message
news:37f05073@news.povray.org...
> After reading this thread, I checked my Computer Science textbook, and it
> appears that POV-Ray is a very popular program for generating artwork for
> these books.  However, the cover artwork in question in this case was
> created by the author of the book, and no copyright violations are
involved.

Hey, interesting!  My last year's math book has a cover image made in POV
(it credited POV-Ray and Moray in the credit page on the front!  No joke!)

--
This message brought to you by:
-=< Ian (the### [at] hotmailcom >=-

Please visit my site at http://spectere2000.cjb.net! :)

Post a reply to this message

Hmm, could there be a market for POV-Ray collectibles?  I like to collect
things and books are one of the things.  I had thought about ordering that
Prentice Hall textbook because it might become a conversation piece in the
future at the very least.
  Also wanted to find a couple other early things like the Walnut Creek CD
and whatever books relating to POV.

Bob

Ian Burgmyer <the### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
news:37f3005d@news.povray.org...
> Mark Wagner <mar### [at] gtenet> wrote in message
> news:37f05073@news.povray.org...
> > After reading this thread, I checked my Computer Science textbook, and
it
> > appears that POV-Ray is a very popular program for generating artwork
for
> > these books.  However, the cover artwork in question in this case was
> > created by the author of the book, and no copyright violations are
> involved.
>
> Hey, interesting!  My last year's math book has a cover image made in POV
> (it credited POV-Ray and Moray in the credit page on the front!  No joke!)
>
> --
> This message brought to you by:
> -=< Ian (the### [at] hotmailcom >=-
>
> Please visit my site at http://spectere2000.cjb.net! :)
>
>
>

Post a reply to this message

Btw Ian, do you remember the name of that book?  Just curious, for now.

Bob

Bob Hughes <inv### [at] aolcom> wrote in message
news:37f32524@news.povray.org...
> Hmm, could there be a market for POV-Ray collectibles?  I like to collect
> things and books are one of the things.  I had thought about ordering that
> Prentice Hall textbook because it might become a conversation piece in the
> future at the very least.
>   Also wanted to find a couple other early things like the Walnut Creek CD
> and whatever books relating to POV.
>
> Bob
>
> Ian Burgmyer <the### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
> news:37f3005d@news.povray.org...
> > Mark Wagner <mar### [at] gtenet> wrote in message
> > news:37f05073@news.povray.org...
> > > After reading this thread, I checked my Computer Science textbook, and
> it
> > > appears that POV-Ray is a very popular program for generating artwork
> for
> > > these books.  However, the cover artwork in question in this case was
> > > created by the author of the book, and no copyright violations are
> > involved.
> >
> > Hey, interesting!  My last year's math book has a cover image made in
POV
> > (it credited POV-Ray and Moray in the credit page on the front!  No
joke!)
> >
> > --
> > This message brought to you by:
> > -=< Ian (the### [at] hotmailcom >=-
> >
> > Please visit my site at http://spectere2000.cjb.net! :)
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 30 Sep 1999 03:55:14 -0500, Bob Hughes wrote:
>  Also wanted to find a couple other early things like the Walnut Creek CD
>and whatever books relating to POV.

How much would you pay for a gently used copy of Ray Tracing Creations? :)
Not that I'd sell mine, of course...

Post a reply to this message

Nope, sorry :(

--
This message brought to you by:
-=< Ian (the### [at] hotmailcom >=-

Please visit my site at http://spectere2000.cjb.net! :)

Bob Hughes <inv### [at] aolcom> wrote in message
news:37f3264f@news.povray.org...
> Btw Ian, do you remember the name of that book?  Just curious, for now.
>
> Bob
>
> Bob Hughes <inv### [at] aolcom> wrote in message
> news:37f32524@news.povray.org...
> > Hmm, could there be a market for POV-Ray collectibles?  I like to
collect
> > things and books are one of the things.  I had thought about ordering
that
> > Prentice Hall textbook because it might become a conversation piece in
the
> > future at the very least.
> >   Also wanted to find a couple other early things like the Walnut Creek
CD
> > and whatever books relating to POV.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > Ian Burgmyer <the### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
> > news:37f3005d@news.povray.org...
> > > Mark Wagner <mar### [at] gtenet> wrote in message
> > > news:37f05073@news.povray.org...
> > > > After reading this thread, I checked my Computer Science textbook,
and
> > it
> > > > appears that POV-Ray is a very popular program for generating
artwork
> > for
> > > > these books.  However, the cover artwork in question in this case
was
> > > > created by the author of the book, and no copyright violations are
> > > involved.
> > >
> > > Hey, interesting!  My last year's math book has a cover image made in
> POV
> > > (it credited POV-Ray and Moray in the credit page on the front!  No
> joke!)
> > >
> > > --
> > > This message brought to you by:
> > > -=< Ian (the### [at] hotmailcom >=-
> > >
> > > Please visit my site at http://spectere2000.cjb.net! :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Post a reply to this message

Question to the newsadmin. . .

Would I be able to put this on my web site?  Or would it be copyright
infringement?

--
This message brought to you by:
-=< Ian (the### [at] hotmailcom >=-

Please visit my site at http://spectere2000.cjb.net! :)

Gautam N. Lad <vnl### [at] mynacom> wrote in message
news:37eed7b2@news.povray.org...
> Hi,
> I bought a text-book for one of my college courses, and lo-and-behold, one
> of my renderings (Grade One), was in the book.  I was so surprised and
> happy,
> considering it was the only non-winning image among other IRTC
> winners/runner ups.
>
> The book is called: Computers:
> Tools for an Information Age 6th Edition by H.L. Capron
> ISBN: 0-201-61211-9
> http://www.prenhall.com/capron
>
> Problem is, I was never told that my image would be appearing in the book.
> Is this somehow breaking one of the IRTC rules or violating my copyrights?
> All the files
> included for the submission included a statement from  me regarding
> permission of image/file, usage.
> I have written on my homepage's gallery and in the IRTC files (.POV, .TXT,
> etc.) that if
> you wish to use the image, you must first contact me to get my permission.
>
> Some of the images included in the book are (from the IRTC):
>
> - Roger, Gary and Bob by Jeane-Marie Haerens and Fabien Mosen
> - Untitled (image of Ice Cream Cone) by Nathan O'Brien (
> - Gomusic by Gena Obukhov (not sure if this is from IRTC)
> - Toco Toucan by Ian and Ethel MacKay
> - Pocketwatch by Kevin Odhner
> - Untitled (bucket of Sea Shells) by Steve Gowers (Summer theme)
> - Untitled (ship image) by Nathan O'Brien (Elements theme)
> - Grade One by Gautam Lad
> - Untitled (plane image) by Ian Armstrong (Flight theme)
> - Admiral Watch by Adrian Baumann
> - Ode to Prianesi by Nathan O'Brien
>
> My question to these artists: Did you receive any notice from the
> publisher/author? If not,
> do you think they violated your copyrights by using the image without your
> permission?
>
> Also, I don't plan on taking any legal action or anything; it's just that
> I'd like to know (in advance)
> where my work is being used.
>
>
> Thanks!
> Bye!
>
> --
> Gautam N. Lad
> ICQ #: 7196672
>
>
>

Post a reply to this message

The message?  You'll have to ask the author Gautam Lad if you can use his
message.

Post a reply to this message

Well, even though you're teasing me, I'd say about $15.  Please keep in mind
I don't know the original value.  If it were a $50 book new and it's 8 years
old lets say, and good condition, probably give $20.  Not worth it to give
up at that price eh? Ha ha.

Bob

Ron Parker <par### [at] fwicom> wrote in message
news:37f365d9@news.povray.org...
> On Thu, 30 Sep 1999 03:55:14 -0500, Bob Hughes wrote:
> >  Also wanted to find a couple other early things like the Walnut Creek
CD
> >and whatever books relating to POV.
>
> How much would you pay for a gently used copy of Ray Tracing Creations? :)
> Not that I'd sell mine, of course...

Post a reply to this message

These news messages are only being kept from other news servers (namely
Usenet) from what I understand of it.  Anything I ever write here I consider
public domain besides though, if I were posting copyrightable material it
wouldn't go here anyhow.  I don't really consider any of my webpages truly
copyrightable either (policeable rather) which is why anything I upload is
typically bad Jpegs or what ever else I mess around with.

Bob

Lance Birch <lan### [at] usanet> wrote in message
news:37f42eee@news.povray.org...
> The message?  You'll have to ask the author Gautam Lad if you can use his
> message.
>
>

Post a reply to this message

If you look at the header of the message you posted, you will find (among
other things) the following line:

X-Copyright: This copyrighted article comes from a private news server and
may NOT be redistributed.

:-)

Also, the URL Ron gave: http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
describes why newsgroup articles are *not* public domain, unless explicitely
made so by the author.

Johannes.


Bob Hughes <inv### [at] aolcom> wrote in message
news:37f4ca5a@news.povray.org...
> These news messages are only being kept from other news servers (namely
> Usenet) from what I understand of it.  Anything I ever write here I
consider
> public domain besides though, if I were posting copyrightable material it
> wouldn't go here anyhow.  I don't really consider any of my webpages truly
> copyrightable either (policeable rather) which is why anything I upload is
> typically bad Jpegs or what ever else I mess around with.
>
> Bob
>
> Lance Birch <lan### [at] usanet> wrote in message
> news:37f42eee@news.povray.org...
> > The message?  You'll have to ask the author Gautam Lad if you can use
his
> > message.
> >
> >
>
>

Post a reply to this message

Ah, thanks for the enlightenment Johannes.  I knew of the "copyrighted"
portion of message properties.  I was basing my comments on a statement made
by either Alan Kong or NewsAdmin about these messages not being distributed
out to Usenet and thought I remembered that being the only real limitation.
Of course my own opinion was just that, an opinion.
I have a quote from a message at a newsgroup (c.g.r.r.?) of David K. Buck on
one of my web pages, don't recall the details of when and where I got it.
Thanks for the url, it's informative reading.
Wonder if Ken has seen the web page on URL linking yet.  You know how he
likes direct addresses to pages and files  ; )

Bob

Johannes Hubert <jhu### [at] algonetse> wrote in message
news:37f4e947@news.povray.org...
> If you look at the header of the message you posted, you will find (among
> other things) the following line:
>
> X-Copyright: This copyrighted article comes from a private news server and
> may NOT be redistributed.
>
> :-)
>
> Also, the URL Ron gave: http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
> describes why newsgroup articles are *not* public domain, unless
explicitely
> made so by the author.
>
> Johannes.
>
>
> Bob Hughes <inv### [at] aolcom> wrote in message
> news:37f4ca5a@news.povray.org...
> > These news messages are only being kept from other news servers (namely
> > Usenet) from what I understand of it.  Anything I ever write here I
> consider
> > public domain besides though, if I were posting copyrightable material
it
> > wouldn't go here anyhow.  I don't really consider any of my webpages
truly
> > copyrightable either (policeable rather) which is why anything I upload
is
> > typically bad Jpegs or what ever else I mess around with.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > Lance Birch <lan### [at] usanet> wrote in message
> > news:37f42eee@news.povray.org...
> > > The message?  You'll have to ask the author Gautam Lad if you can use
> his
> > > message.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 27 Sep 1999 13:44:13 +0200, Remco de Korte
<rem### [at] xs4allnl> wrote:

[snip]
>Sueing assumes that the publisher is not all together bona fide. Now this is not
>an elegant thing, but I don't really think the publisher here intentionally
>broke some copyright-law. Perhaps a good first step would be to simply write a
>(e-)letter, stating that they have used one (or more) of _your_ products and how
>this could happen and then see how they react. It's good to not let this go
>unnoticed. If the publisher has had a chance to defend his actions you can
>decide what happens next.
>Of course, chances are they'll ignore you, in which case sueing in court might
>not really be an option but nailing them to a virtual wall on the internet (by
>all sorts of ways) is! I think they're are a lot of people who'll support you
>then.
>
I am not a lawyer, etc. etc. etc. but agree this sounds like the best
course of action. Sadly, the only case I'm aware of (due to other
interests) where a commercial company has used graphics from a web
site (where copyright information is displayed) didn't go to well -
the initial e-mail was responded to by a rather sharp and borderline
threatening response. Don't let a stiff reply get you down!


Cheers,

Cliff Bowman
Why not pay my 3D Dr Who site a visit at http://www.who3d.cwc.net/

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