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Am I the only one who thinks that the confidence value in the focal blur
is not scaled very well? The default value (if I remember right, 0.9) is
not very good, and every time I want decent focal blur, I have to set it
to something like 0.9999 and I still get a bit of graininess. So 0.9999 seems
to be a minimum to get decent focal blur; 0.9 is not enough; all the values
below 0.9 are completely useless.
This may be too late, but I think that it should be scaled better. For
example 0.5 would be the default value and it would give the same quality as
the current 0.9, and the quality which you get currently with 0.9999 would
be got with something like 0.9 or 0.95 or something.
--
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/
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Nieminen Mika wrote:
>
> Am I the only one who thinks that the confidence value in the focal blur
> is not scaled very well? The default value (if I remember right, 0.9) is
> not very good, and every time I want decent focal blur, I have to set it
> to something like 0.9999 and I still get a bit of graininess. So 0.9999 seems
> to be a minimum to get decent focal blur; 0.9 is not enough; all the values
> below 0.9 are completely useless.
> This may be too late, but I think that it should be scaled better. For
> example 0.5 would be the default value and it would give the same quality as
> the current 0.9, and the quality which you get currently with 0.9999 would
> be got with something like 0.9 or 0.95 or something.
>
> --
> main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
> ):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/
I have wondered about this myself in the past and blamed it on my lack
of experience with the process.
I think the same holds true for the extinction level setting used in
scattering media. An extinction level of one is horrible while a value
of 0.1 is much closer to what one might expect. It too seems to suffer
from a scaling problem... perhaps a misplaced decimal point in the
source code.
--
Ken Tyler
See my 700+ Povray and 3D Rendering and Raytracing Links at:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html
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Ken wrote:
> I have wondered about this myself in the past and blamed it on my lack
> of experience with the process.
That is three of us.
> I think the same holds true for the extinction level setting used in
> scattering media. An extinction level of one is horrible while a value
> of 0.1 is much closer to what one might expect. It too seems to suffer
> from a scaling problem... perhaps a misplaced decimal point in the
> source code.
But I would guess it is not a mistake but a toss up between the
number the equation requires and the log of that number. For
example, a common analog volume control feels linear but the
amount it changes internally is logarithmic. If it were linear
lowest hearable to highest volume would be in the last ten
percent. (Not quite but that is the idea.) Since they have to
pick some rational scale make it a judgement call.
--
<blink>-------please--don't-----------------</blink>
http://www.giwersworld.org/artii/
http://www.giwersworld.org/artiii/
Finally up on 99/06/22 updated 07/13
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Matt Giwer wrote:
> But I would guess it is not a mistake but a toss up between the
> number the equation requires and the log of that number. For
> example, a common analog volume control feels linear but the
> amount it changes internally is logarithmic. If it were linear
> lowest hearable to highest volume would be in the last ten
> percent. (Not quite but that is the idea.) Since they have to
> pick some rational scale make it a judgement call.
Yes but the use of logarithmic pots for audio purposes has to do with
the physics of human hearing and not to do with my visual pleasure when
using media. It could easily be linear or log and it would not matter
if the scaling of the feature were inadaquate for my purposes.
--
Ken Tyler
See my 700+ Povray and 3D Rendering and Raytracing Links at:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html
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Ken wrote:
> Yes but the use of logarithmic pots for audio purposes has to do with
> the physics of human hearing and not to do with my visual pleasure when
> using media. It could easily be linear or log and it would not matter
> if the scaling of the feature were inadaquate for my purposes.
Let me rephrase without appearing to post for the sake of
posting.
There are semi-log functions and quatro-log functions. At
deci-log it might as well be linear. At some point they have to
pick one number range. Phong is technically as wrong as this one
but the complaints have died down.
As I am constantly reminded, POV is not just for folks who
understand what we are talking about with linear and log.
If I see anything (still having the source code but not having
screwed up my courage to the sticking point to dive into it) I
see a mixture of log(0-1), log(0-10) and no log at all. Usually a
range of numbers is in the docs.
I will say two things about the docs. The docs are poor. The
docs are better than most programs over $500. I know of no higher
compliment for a free program.
As for this problem, when I try something new and it does not
work as I expected I treat it like an alpha tester. I try the
extremes first. 1000 and then .001 then go to .5. Hit the
extremes and the average. And honestly after much frustration I
usually discover I was doing something wrong in the first place.
There is an old trick cut by halves. In eight tries you are down
to one part in 64k. That will quickly show you where effective
changes are.
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Matt Giwer wrote:
Poorly stated but not easy to make scientifically correct
generalities. The 1 and 10 should have been +infinity for most I
have played with. From memory phong (not phong_size) says not
much difference over 5 which is quite a way from +infinity. But
even phong_size at 70 or 70000 is a long way from infinity. And
0-70 ia about the noticeable range of effect.
I presume readers familiar with evaluating equations know what I
am talking about. Can any of you help me explain?
A FAQ file of "these ranges produce the differences" would be
useful.
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Can you please stop sending your articles in MIME format and without any
vcards or anything? Just plain text. Thanks.
Here is quoted all the text of your article which is completely useless
and completely irrelevant. A total of 24 lines:
: This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
: --------------F5C7A739E1789723D1719CD4
: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
: --------------F5C7A739E1789723D1719CD4
: Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
: name="mgiwer.vcf"
: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
: Content-Description: Card for Matt Giwer
: Content-Disposition: attachment;
: filename="mgiwer.vcf"
: begin:vcard
: n:Giwer;Matt
: tel;cell:813-694-3998
: tel;work:813-972-2574
: x-mozilla-html:FALSE
: org:Images Incarnate
: version:2.1
: email;internet:mgi### [at] giwersworld org
: title:Owner
: adr;quoted-printable:;;14205 Nebraska Ave=0D=0A#27;Tampa;FL;33613;USA
: fn:Matt Giwer
: end:vcard
: --------------F5C7A739E1789723D1719CD4--
Why don't you make just a regular signature like anyone else?
--
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/
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Nieminen Mika wrote:
> Can you please stop sending your articles in MIME format and without any
> vcards or anything? Just plain text. Thanks.
> Here is quoted all the text of your article which is completely useless
> and completely irrelevant. A total of 24 lines:
I look at my own messages and see no such thing. Why don't you
just adjust your reader not to show the message headers? Every
message has provision for at least 1k worth of header I think but
I would have to check the RFC to be sure.
> Why don't you make just a regular signature like anyone else?
I see plenty of Vcards around here. Why are you singling me out
for your attentions?
--
<blink>-------please--don't-----------------</blink>
http://www.giwersworld.org/artii/
http://www.giwersworld.org/artiii/
Finally up on 99/06/22 updated 07/13
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>Nieminen Mika wrote:
BTW TIN is a very primitive newsreader. You might consider
upgrading.
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On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:34:29 -0400, Matt Giwer wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>--------------130CED139398AB15E1C28502
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
^^^ Those aren't headers. They're MIME Multipart separators.
> I look at my own messages and see no such thing. Why don't you
>just adjust your reader not to show the message headers? Every
A) That's because you're using a web browser instead of a news reader.
B) Those aren't headers. Even if you turn off headers, the useless MIME
crap shows up. MIME is okay in binaries groups, because we expect it
there, but it is out of place in a text-only group.
I'm usually happy to just ignore it, but when people are wrong and then
get belligerent about their right to be wrong rather than solving the
problem, it starts to bother me.
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On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:53:04 -0400, Matt Giwer wrote:
> BTW TIN is a very primitive newsreader. You might consider
>upgrading.
This I can agree with. Warp, consider trn. tin doesn't do real
threading. Or better, strn so you can score MIME headers down like
I do. :)
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Ron Parker wrote:
>
> On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:34:29 -0400, Matt Giwer wrote:
> >This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> >--------------130CED139398AB15E1C28502
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> ^^^ Those aren't headers. They're MIME Multipart separators.
>
> > I look at my own messages and see no such thing. Why don't you
> >just adjust your reader not to show the message headers? Every
>
> A) That's because you're using a web browser instead of a news reader.
> B) Those aren't headers. Even if you turn off headers, the useless MIME
> crap shows up. MIME is okay in binaries groups, because we expect it
> there, but it is out of place in a text-only group.
>
> I'm usually happy to just ignore it, but when people are wrong and then
> get belligerent about their right to be wrong rather than solving the
> problem, it starts to bother me.
I think vcards are stupid. I have been seeing them since I started on the
net a little over a year ago and in all that time I have only looked at
one of them. That was simply out of curiosiy. Since that time I have hated
them because I see the mime attachment icon at the top of the message post
and think there might actualy be something attached that is worth looking
at. Imagine my dissapointment when I find out it's just another stupid
vcard. Having both a sig and a vcard is redundant and not really called for
in my opinion.
--
Ken Tyler
See my 700+ Povray and 3D Rendering and Raytracing Links at:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html
...and then came the Vcard and humanity was destroyed by it ! <me>
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Ron Parker <par### [at] fwicom> wrote:
: tin doesn't do real threading.
You are wrong:
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~warp/tin1.gif
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~warp/tin2.gif
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~warp/tin3.gif
--
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/
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On 10 Aug 1999 11:49:47 -0400, Nieminen Mika wrote:
>Ron Parker <par### [at] fwicom> wrote:
>: tin doesn't do real threading.
>
> You are wrong:
I have never been so happy to be wrong in my life. It's "common knowledge"
that tin doesn't do references-based threading, but from your pictures it's
apparent that the common knowledge, like most such, is wrong. In that case,
stick with tin. It's far better than anything Netscape will ever produce.
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Ron Parker wrote:
> It's far better than anything Netscape will ever produce.
I personally like Netscape and resent the implications you are making about
my preferred choice of software. Had you said the same about Internet Exporer
I would have happily agreed with you but since this was not the case you have
some explaining to do Sir. Heck I have never even heard of Tin until reading
this thread so it's likely not all that great or it would be have seen wider
usage from the masses by now. No I don't see it as a serious threat to the
likes of a great program like Netscape now or in the near future. Just is
not going to happen if you want my opinion on the subject. In fact it will
probably go the way of the Macintosh system which can't possibly last much
longer either. Doomed I say ! They are all doomed. Viva la Netscape !
Viva la Netscape ! Viva la Netscape ! Viva la Netscape ! Viva la Netscape !
--
Ken Tyler
See my 700+ Povray and 3D Rendering and Raytracing Links at:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html
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On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:14:47 -0700, Ken wrote:
>
>
>Ron Parker wrote:
>
>> It's far better than anything Netscape will ever produce.
>
> I personally like Netscape and resent the implications you are making about
>my preferred choice of software. Had you said the same about Internet Exporer
>I would have happily agreed with you but since this was not the case you have
>some explaining to do Sir.
Watch me not take the bait.
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Ron Parker wrote:
> Watch me not take the bait.
Ok. It is your choice after all and I will at least respect that.
Viva la Netscape !
--
Ken Tyler
See my 700+ Povray and 3D Rendering and Raytracing Links at:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html
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Ron Parker wrote:
>
> On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:14:47 -0700, Ken wrote:
> >
> >
> >Ron Parker wrote:
> >
> >> It's far better than anything Netscape will ever produce.
> >
> > I personally like Netscape and resent the implications you are making about
> >my preferred choice of software. Had you said the same about Internet Exporer
> >I would have happily agreed with you but since this was not the case you have
> >some explaining to do Sir.
>
> Watch me not take the bait.
Dang! And I was really hoping...
Ken is right, of course. So there's not much to say. >:)
Margus
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Ron Parker wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:34:29 -0400, Matt Giwer wrote:
> >This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> >--------------130CED139398AB15E1C28502
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> ^^^ Those aren't headers. They're MIME Multipart separators.
> > I look at my own messages and see no such thing. Why don't you
> >just adjust your reader not to show the message headers? Every
> A) That's because you're using a web browser instead of a news reader.
> B) Those aren't headers. Even if you turn off headers, the useless MIME
> crap shows up. MIME is okay in binaries groups, because we expect it
> there, but it is out of place in a text-only group.
That confirms TIN being a primitive newreader.
So now the polite request is to switch modes depending upon
which newsgroup?
> I'm usually happy to just ignore it, but when people are wrong and then
> get belligerent about their right to be wrong rather than solving the
> problem, it starts to bother me.
So far as I can tell, one person appears to have a problem. And
his problem is that his newsreader is the lowest common
denominator. And if you do not mind, that bothers me. If someone
wants to complain my website is not compatible with Lynx, I do
not think my response would be belligerant.
As to rude, I direct your attention to his first post to me on
the subject.
--
<blink>-------please--don't-----------------</blink>
http://www.giwersworld.org/artii/
http://www.giwersworld.org/artiii/
Finally up on 99/06/22 updated 07/13
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And if TIN is great, TIN is good, it can filter out my posts if
they are so annoying.
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On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:39:47 -0400, Matt Giwer <mgi### [at] giwersworldorg> wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>--------------AD72158577FF48AA6FA382F9
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> That confirms TIN being a primitive newreader.
No, it confirms that Netscape and Microsoft wouldn't recognize the relevant RFC
if it was crammed up their collective asses one page at a time. Any decent
newsreader has the same problem with vcards.
> So now the polite request is to switch modes depending upon
>which newsgroup?
No, the polite request is and has been to ditch the vcard. Only other Netscape
users can make any use of it, and it conveys no additional useful information.
>> I'm usually happy to just ignore it, but when people are wrong and then
>> get belligerent about their right to be wrong rather than solving the
>> problem, it starts to bother me.
>
> So far as I can tell, one person appears to have a problem. And
>his problem is that his newsreader is the lowest common
>denominator. And if you do not mind, that bothers me. If someone
>wants to complain my website is not compatible with Lynx, I do
>not think my response would be belligerant.
Actually, I count at least three different people who have said vcards
irritate them. My newsreader is hardly the least common denominator
(the math guy in me says there is no such thing anyway) as it has features
yours doesn't and never will, such as the ability to score posts.
> As to rude, I direct your attention to his first post to me on
>the subject.
I see. The fact that he was rude to you justifies you being rude to him.
I'm so glad I skipped kindergarten, if that's what they're teaching these
days.
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On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:43:44 -0400, Matt Giwer <mgi### [at] giwersworldorg> wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>--------------B394F3AE2196077F9281459F
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> And if TIN is great, TIN is good, it can filter out my posts if
>they are so annoying.
>--------------B394F3AE2196077F9281459F
>Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
> name="mgiwer.vcf"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Description: Card for Matt Giwer
>Content-Disposition: attachment;
> filename="mgiwer.vcf"
>
>begin:vcard
>n:Giwer;Matt
>tel;cell:813-694-3998
>tel;work:813-972-2574
>x-mozilla-html:FALSE
>org:Images Incarnate
>version:2.1
>email;internet:mgi### [at] giwersworldorg
>title:Owner
>adr;quoted-printable:;;14205 Nebraska Ave=0D=0A#27;Tampa;FL;33613;USA
>fn:Matt Giwer
>end:vcard
>
>--------------B394F3AE2196077F9281459F--
True. Warp was just giving you a chance to fix your problem before taking
such a drastic step. Oh... by the way... find the two lines of content in
the 20+ lines of quoted material above. Quickly now. Time's a wastin'.
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Ron Parker wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:39:47 -0400, Matt Giwer <mgi### [at] giwersworldorg> wrote:
> > That confirms TIN being a primitive newreader.
> No, it confirms that Netscape and Microsoft wouldn't recognize the relevant RFC
> if it was crammed up their collective asses one page at a time. Any decent
> newsreader has the same problem with vcards.
I am unaware NS and MS being thrown off the RFC committees for
failure to comply. While I agree unix is the best OS available, I
find its users generally an unsurly lot when it comes to their
self-perceived superiority in using it. And, yes, I have used it
and VMS and some other long dead and happily so OSs.
> > So now the polite request is to switch modes depending upon
> >which newsgroup?
> No, the polite request is and has been to ditch the vcard. Only other Netscape
> users can make any use of it, and it conveys no additional useful information.
Did I miss that post? Can you direct me to it?
> > So far as I can tell, one person appears to have a problem. And
> >his problem is that his newsreader is the lowest common
> >denominator. And if you do not mind, that bothers me. If someone
> >wants to complain my website is not compatible with Lynx, I do
> >not think my response would be belligerant.
> Actually, I count at least three different people who have said vcards
> irritate them. My newsreader is hardly the least common denominator
> (the math guy in me says there is no such thing anyway) as it has features
> yours doesn't and never will, such as the ability to score posts.
Scoring posts, now that appears to be a useful one. If slrn is
to great it has the ability to filter. Use it. No difference to
me.
As to three people it annoys and for the math guy in you, that
is (users<sub>tot</sub> - 3) who are at least polite enough to
deal with the world as it is. Is that number significantly
different from (users<sub>tot</sub> - 1)?
> > As to rude, I direct your attention to his first post to me on
> >the subject.
> I see. The fact that he was rude to you justifies you being rude to him.
> I'm so glad I skipped kindergarten, if that's what they're teaching these
> days.
Now that was clever. A kindergarten reference. Have any more
from the Dale Carnegie manual?
You folks are really insisting upon a pissing contest to waste
disk space. Why is it so important to you?
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Ron Parker wrote:
> True. Warp was just giving you a chance to fix your problem before taking
> such a drastic step. Oh... by the way... find the two lines of content in
> the 20+ lines of quoted material above. Quickly now. Time's a wastin'.
Who is he to give me a chance? A chance for what? To have the
pleasure of his reading my posts? Why would I care? Was
löaut; mit diese Bild? (Wrong assumed_gamma I guess.)
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Ron Parker <par### [at] fwicom> wrote:
: I have never been so happy to be wrong in my life. It's "common knowledge"
: that tin doesn't do references-based threading, but from your pictures it's
: apparent that the common knowledge, like most such, is wrong. In that case,
: stick with tin. It's far better than anything Netscape will ever produce.
That allegation about tin has been true for long time, but since the
newest version appeared (about a half or one year ago), it has supported
threading, ansi colors, mouse (yes, mouse; through xterm; incredible, eh?),
etc.
I use netscape to read the binaries groups, but it's too heavy for regular
news reading (specially in this computer (sparcstation 4) which is quite
slow).
--
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/
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Matt Giwer <mgi### [at] giwersworldorg> wrote:
: And if TIN is great, TIN is good, it can filter out my posts if
: they are so annoying.
Actually tin can do it, but even when you would never know that I'm
automatically ignoring your posts, I find it more insulting than your
flamewar posts about your vcard. I have never put anyone in my kill-file
and wouldn't want to start now.
It would be nice, however, if you would post articles like anyone else.
What's the big deal, anyways? What's the problem in making just a signature
like anyone else? What's the problem with you? Why do you start a flame war?
What's so special with a vcard anyways?
--
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/
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On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:58:00 -0400, Matt Giwer wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>--------------8CE1C261FF06580E281FB01C
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Ron Parker wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:39:47 -0400, Matt Giwer <mgi### [at] giwersworldorg> wrote:
>
>> > That confirms TIN being a primitive newreader.
>
>> No, it confirms that Netscape and Microsoft wouldn't recognize the relevant RFC
>> if it was crammed up their collective asses one page at a time. Any decent
>> newsreader has the same problem with vcards.
>
> I am unaware NS and MS being thrown off the RFC committees for
>failure to comply.
There is no RFC committee. There never was. There never will be. And neither
Netscape nor Microsoft would care anyway, as they're too busy carving out
"market share" to want to bother with standards.
>
>> > So now the polite request is to switch modes depending upon
>> >which newsgroup?
>
>> No, the polite request is and has been to ditch the vcard. Only other Netscape
>> users can make any use of it, and it conveys no additional useful information.
>
> Did I miss that post? Can you direct me to it?
That would be the one where Warp said "get rid of the vcard crap."
> Scoring posts, now that appears to be a useful one. If slrn is
>to great it has the ability to filter. Use it. No difference to
>me.
Works for me. Welcome to my killfile. If it seems lonely, that's because
it is. The only company you'll have in there is a few threads, because
none of the other people on here have been stupid enough to end up there.
> As to three people it annoys and for the math guy in you, that
>is (users<sub>tot</sub> - 3) who are at least polite enough to
>deal with the world as it is. Is that number significantly
>different from (users<sub>tot</sub> - 1)?
Ugh. HTML to do math. When will it end? Everyone knows you use TeX to
do math. :) I should point out that the four (I was mistaken) users who
have objected to vcards are among the most prolific posters and helpful
people on this server. I would have thought their opinion was worth
something to you.
> You folks are really insisting upon a pissing contest to waste
>disk space. Why is it so important to you?
Because we'd like to be able to read your posts. Well, everyone but
me anyway. I couldn't care less at this point.
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On 11 Aug 1999 02:17:35 -0400, Nieminen Mika wrote:
> That allegation about tin has been true for long time, but since the
>newest version appeared (about a half or one year ago), it has supported
>threading, ansi colors, mouse (yes, mouse; through xterm; incredible, eh?),
>etc.
I'm glad to hear that. Looks like it's catching up with slrn, then. :)
My slrn doesn't have mouse support, but I guess that's okay since I'm
running it under Windows in a command prompt (except when I'm running
it under Linux on a box with no X installed.)
> I use netscape to read the binaries groups, but it's too heavy for regular
>news reading (specially in this computer (sparcstation 4) which is quite
>slow).
Likewise. Plus, I find it occasionally loses huge blocks of posts from
the one group I do read with it.
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Ok guys,
Now that you have fought for a while (and provided me with some amusing
reading) I would like to comment on your war of words.
I am probably one of those hated outsiders because I am using Outlook
Express as a newsreader. I admit to occasional use of Netscape's newsreader
(now in version 4.61). Perhaps that alone disqualifies me from partaking in
this thread but I take my chances.
I also noticed that a few posters use VCards. They show up as a little icon
identifying them immediately as a VCard. So unless I want to get additional
info about the guy who posted I simply ignore them. Actually, my newsreaders
are smart enough to identify the type of attachment.
As far as sigs are concerned I usually ignore them too. Some are really
funny but after a while ... well, let's skip that. Oh, the ones that are
supposed to resemble something and use all those funny characters are the
worst because unless you use a typewriter font they appear just like
garbage.
One thing that struck me while following the discussion (which, btw, is
really way off topic) is that some of you use a newsreader from the old
times, i.e. when the net was used only by students and other members of the
mental elite. Yet, all of you cannot wait until a new version of PoV-Ray
comes out. That IMHO is schizophrenic.
I think if you want to use your newsreader of choice and it cannot process
certain data in a way you like you either have to accept that or do
something about your application. The net is a place where people can meet
without prejudice or bias, irrespective of sex, color, belief or OS and
newsreader for that matter. And whatnot.
BTW, I am annoyed by the fact that people post huge files w/o letting me
know how large they are. So I only find out after the fact that it takes
ages to download over a phone line. Obviously, the posters have fast
Internet access or are a lot more patient than I am. Yet, I do not flame
them or ask them to not post or use a smaller resolution for their images or
do this and do that. They have a choice of medium and so do I.
Take care, guys. This newsgroup would not be what it is without you and your
contributions!
.....Opinions are my own....
Bernd M. Jordan
URL: http://members.aol.com/berndmj/
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Nieminen Mika wrote:
> It would be nice, however, if you would post articles like anyone else.
> What's the big deal, anyways? What's the problem in making just a signature
> like anyone else? What's the problem with you? Why do you start a flame war?
> What's so special with a vcard anyways?
>
> --
> main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
> ):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/
I agree with Nieminen in the following sense. If Matt were someone who post
seldom in this news group it could be interesting to send a vcard with the
messages. But this is not the case. Matt is one of us that post the most
regularly. So his vcard is a little bit boring and to some people here
annoying. Matt, for me it would be fine if you just put your name at the end
of your messages.
Regards, Alberto.
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Bernd M. Jordan <ber### [at] sbssiemenscom> wrote:
: One thing that struck me while following the discussion (which, btw, is
: really way off topic) is that some of you use a newsreader from the old
: times, i.e. when the net was used only by students and other members of the
: mental elite. Yet, all of you cannot wait until a new version of PoV-Ray
: comes out. That IMHO is schizophrenic.
I don't think that anyone here uses an old-time newsreader. I suppose that
everyone uses the latest version available. Newer versions have always
newer features.
It's just like with povray: No-one uses pov2.2 anymore. Just a few use
pov3.0. Most people use the latest version.
The fact that povray has existed for a long time doesn't make it an old
program. You can't say "povray is an old program, you should upgrade to
3DStudio".
In the same way: The fact that a news reader has existed for a very long
time doesn't make it an old program.
--
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/
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Nieminen Mika wrote:
>
> Matt Giwer <mgi### [at] giwersworldorg> wrote:
> : And if TIN is great, TIN is good, it can filter out my posts if
> : they are so annoying.
>
> Actually tin can do it,
Then do it and shut up!
> but even when you would never know that I'm
> automatically ignoring your posts,
Why in the hell would I care?
I find it more insulting than your
> flamewar posts about your vcard.
You started whatever it is.
Now please filter me out.
> I have never put anyone in my kill-file
> and wouldn't want to start now.
I would greatly prefer you did. PLEASE filter me.
And please stop these lame excuses for not doing what we both
agree is the best solution.
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Nieminen Mika wrote in message <37b19a95@news.povray.org>...
>Bernd M. Jordan <ber### [at] sbssiemenscom> wrote:
>: One thing that struck me while following the discussion (which, btw, is
>: really way off topic) is that some of you use a newsreader from the old
>: times, i.e. when the net was used only by students and other members of
the
>: mental elite. Yet, all of you cannot wait until a new version of PoV-Ray
>: comes out. That IMHO is schizophrenic.
>
> I don't think that anyone here uses an old-time newsreader. I suppose
that
>everyone uses the latest version available. Newer versions have always
>newer features.
That's my point!
> It's just like with povray: No-one uses pov2.2 anymore. Just a few use
>pov3.0. Most people use the latest version.
> The fact that povray has existed for a long time doesn't make it an old
>program. You can't say "povray is an old program, you should upgrade to
>3DStudio".
I did not say PoV-Ray is an old program.
> In the same way: The fact that a news reader has existed for a very long
>time doesn't make it an old program.
I didn't say that either. However, my feeling is that a newsreader unable to
process VCards, or any other form of binary attachment is lacking some of
the new features. In this case I would upgrade to take advantage of them.
>
>--
>main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
>):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/
.....Opinions are my own....
Bernd M. Jordan
URL: http://members.aol.com/berndmj/
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Nieminen Mika wrote:
> It's just like with povray: No-one uses pov2.2 anymore. Just a few use
> pov3.0. Most people use the latest version.
I, Ken Tyler, still use Pov v2.2 on a monthly basis. I also use the latest
version. I, Ken Tyler, am probably alone in this regard.
--
Ken Tyler
See my 700+ Povray and 3D Rendering and Raytracing Links at:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html
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Matt Giwer <mgi### [at] giwersworldorg> wrote:
:> but even when you would never know that I'm
:> automatically ignoring your posts,
: Why in the hell would I care?
It may sound hypocritical, but I have conscience. As I have posted earlier,
I don't think you are a disgusting person. Filtering you would be to me the
same as saying "I don't like that person, he is disgusting and I don't want
to see him anymore". That's not true. I want to read your articles. You
have many good things to say about POV-Ray.
Perhaps you don't care if someone ignores you, but I certainly care if
I make such a radical thing.
If my signature really annoys you, I can remove it. No problem.
--
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/
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On 11 Aug 1999 12:12:45 -0400, Nieminen Mika wrote:
> If my signature really annoys you, I can remove it. No problem.
You shouldn't have to do that. Any real newsreader can hide signatures. :)
(Bad Ron! Bad Ron! No biscuit!)
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Ron Parker wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:58:00 -0400, Matt Giwer wrote:
> > I am unaware NS and MS being thrown off the RFC committees for
> >failure to comply.
> There is no RFC committee. There never was. There never will be. And neither
> Netscape nor Microsoft would care anyway, as they're too busy carving out
> "market share" to want to bother with standards.
No committes? That is going to be an awful surprise to the
committee members.
But if you to not like NS and MS don't take it out on me. Mongo
is but a pawn in the game of life.
> > Did I miss that post? Can you direct me to it?
> That would be the one where Warp said "get rid of the vcard crap."
And I should obey orders to be polite. Following orders is not a
defense as you know. I did not realize Warp was der Feuhrer.
> Works for me. Welcome to my killfile.
And that is what I recommended all along.
> If it seems lonely, that's because
> it is. The only company you'll have in there is a few threads, because
> none of the other people on here have been stupid enough to end up there.
Speaking of ego, lonely without you? Oh the abandonment of it
all!
> > As to three people it annoys and for the math guy in you, that
> >is (users<sub>tot</sub> - 3) who are at least polite enough to
> >deal with the world as it is. Is that number significantly
> >different from (users<sub>tot</sub> - 1)?
> Ugh. HTML to do math. When will it end? Everyone knows you use TeX to
> do math. :) I should point out that the four (I was mistaken) users who
> have objected to vcards are among the most prolific posters and helpful
> people on this server. I would have thought their opinion was worth
> something to you.
Ah well, what can we do against the people who smash the sewing
machines. They are all dunderheads. Luddites in the old days.
Today they curse graphics capable machines on the most renouned
graphics website in the known universe.
Are we not impressed that these folks who have not the least
problem with at 1.2M grasphics file are making such an ego play
over 24 short lines of text?
Are we supposed to take these people seriously?
> > You folks are really insisting upon a pissing contest to waste
> >disk space. Why is it so important to you?
> Because we'd like to be able to read your posts. Well, everyone but
> me anyway. I couldn't care less at this point.
So do not read them. Makes no difference to me. I would prefer
you never read a word I post again. Please filter me in stead of
complaining.
--
Oh my God! They've rendered Kenny!
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On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:50:56 -0400, Matt Giwer wrote:
>> There is no RFC committee. There never was. There never will be. And neither
>> Netscape nor Microsoft would care anyway, as they're too busy carving out
>> "market share" to want to bother with standards.
>
> No committes? That is going to be an awful surprise to the
>committee members.
There are the IETF and W3C and such organizations, but RFCs can be and
are submitted by anyone without any committee involvement, unless that's
changed within the past few years. As it happens, I spoke too quickly:
vcard actually is covered by an RFC. But then, so is netiquette. :)
>> Works for me. Welcome to my killfile.
>
> And that is what I recommended all along.
Actually, I've taken you back out because I found a better solution, which I
have recommended to Warp as well. I no longer see vcard information, because
I modified my newsreader to kill the remainder of an article when it sees a
line containing the vcard MIME content type. Open Source is such a beautiful
thing.
>> If it seems lonely, that's because
>> it is. The only company you'll have in there is a few threads, because
>> none of the other people on here have been stupid enough to end up there.
>
> Speaking of ego, lonely without you? Oh the abandonment of it
>all!
Ah, that was supposed to be a joke. You were the only person in my killfile,
so I thought you might get lonely in there with just a couple threads to
interact with.
> Ah well, what can we do against the people who smash the sewing
>machines. They are all dunderheads. Luddites in the old days.
>Today they curse graphics capable machines on the most renouned
>graphics website in the known universe.
Not at all. I use Windows myself, as you can see from my headers. I just
know when a GUI is useful and when it isn't. I read .binaries.images in
Netscape; everything else I use a more efficient interface for.
>--
>Oh my God! They've rendered Kenny!
>--------------EE4E7EA13D77C4C3F8740D29
The above is what I see at the end of your posts now. Ahhhh, that's so
much better! :)
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Ron Parker wrote:
If there is a matter of game playing I do not like, in your last
post you said "welcome to my killfile." And here you are
responsding after I am your killfile.
Please, do not raise in me false expectations of logical
discourse. If I am killed then I am killed, right? Please act ast
you say you do.
This is most disturbing and it might incite me to respond in
kind.
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On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:58:34 -0400, Matt Giwer wrote:
>Ron Parker wrote:
>
> If there is a matter of game playing I do not like, in your last
>post you said "welcome to my killfile." And here you are
>responsding after I am your killfile.
>
> Please, do not raise in me false expectations of logical
>discourse. If I am killed then I am killed, right? Please act ast
>you say you do.
>
> This is most disturbing and it might incite me to respond in
>kind.
I said I removed you from my killfile, did I not? That removal corresponded
with the success of my patch to banish vcards from my sight. I even said as
much in the post you're replying to here.
Now, the vcard issue seems to be resolved. Those of us with text-mode
newsreaders almost certainly have source and can filter out vcards if
we wish, and you've at least temporarily removed yours anyway so that
already eliminates most of the vcards we would see in any given day.
Wish I'd have had that idea last night, before this whole mess started.
I'd say the time has come for the flamewar to end, wouldn't you? Can
we just go back to the old POV community cameraderie now?
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Nieminen Mika wrote:
>
> Matt Giwer <mgi### [at] giwersworldorg> wrote:
> :> but even when you would never know that I'm
> :> automatically ignoring your posts,
>
> : Why in the hell would I care?
>
> It may sound hypocritical, but I have conscience. As I have posted earlier,
> I don't think you are a disgusting person. Filtering you would be to me the
> same as saying "I don't like that person, he is disgusting and I don't want
> to see him anymore". That's not true. I want to read your articles. You
> have many good things to say about POV-Ray.
> Perhaps you don't care if someone ignores you, but I certainly care if
> I make such a radical thing.
>
> If my signature really annoys you, I can remove it. No problem.
>
> --
> main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
> ):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/
Your sig annoys no more than any other. I would not want your to
remove it on my accont. I only used it as an example.
I might suggest a bit of variety to as I am starting.
There was an unfortunate confrontation. Both have withdraen. No
winner, no loser. Everything is as though it had not happened. My
memory isn't that long anyway.
Humility is the path to learning.
--
<blink>---please--don't---</blink>
http://www.giwersworld.org/artiii/
Oh my God! They've rendered Kenny!
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Ron Parker wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:58:34 -0400, Matt Giwer wrote:
> >Ron Parker wrote:
> > If there is a matter of game playing I do not like, in your last
> >post you said "welcome to my killfile." And here you are
> >responsding after I am your killfile.
> > Please, do not raise in me false expectations of logical
> >discourse. If I am killed then I am killed, right? Please act ast
> >you say you do.
> > This is most disturbing and it might incite me to respond in
> >kind.
> I said I removed you from my killfile, did I not?
Please, such comments are condescending. Do not! That is my ego
and your loss.
But yes, the flame war is over I hope. No one wanted it. It just
happened.
> I'd say the time has come for the flamewar to end, wouldn't you? Can
> we just go back to the old POV community cameraderie now?
It is over for me. But I am an arrogant asshole so the future
can not be promised.
Now POV, I as learning as everyone else, there are no rules or
protocls. No prolbem in the least.
But let us leave internet protocols out of POV on all sides. IT
is a seprate matter and there are better newsgroups for it.
--
<blink>---please--don't---</blink>
http://www.giwersworld.org/artiii/
Oh my God! They've rendered Kenny!
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Ken,
I have always found your sense of humour really amusing though
sometimes a bit twisted and finger-freezing :) Hence, I am 100% sure
you are just kidding at the end of this post. Still, I'll take a bite
at that bait, thank you :)
<takes the bait>
When I was looking for a decent newsreader [I was using Outlook
Express back then :( ], I grepped all lines starting with "X-Mailer"
out of the Outlook data files and sorted them, then removed the
duplicates. I came up with a list of newsreaders that I hadn't heard
about, like uka_ppp, crosspoint, knews, MT-NewsWatcher, News Xpress,
NoticiasUPU, TIN, Turnpike, WinVN etc. I then asked about those here
in the ng. You seemed to be following the thread judging from your
short yet informative answer (<quote Ken> Netscape </quote Ken>). So
you've heard about TIN after all :)
BTW I am ready to bet my disability pension that there are less than a
dozen people in Bulgaria that have heard of POV-Ray, less than half a
dozen that have seen it, and less than one third of a dozen that
actually use it, and heck I'm gonna win that bet! That doesn't mean
POV is
<gulp!>
<gathers courage>
not a great program
<gulp!>
<hides in a corner>
does it? :)
<spits bait, ha!>
Peter Popov
ICQ: 15002700
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On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:16:16 -0400, "Bernd M. Jordan"
<ber### [at] sbssiemenscom> wrote:
>I didn't say that either. However, my feeling is that a newsreader unable to
>process VCards, or any other form of binary attachment is lacking some of
>the new features.
Hi, Bernd. I'm using Forté Agent in offline mode to read newsgroups. I
don't feel a particular need for my newsreader to decode vcards. I can read
it with Netscape if I choose, but I don't.
Vcards are harmless clutter. No more offensive than a sig but flashier so
it is harder to ignore. I prefer text.
I have no intention of demanding that anyone stop using vcards but I would
hope that they consider doing so.
"Part left out cost nothing and cause no service problems." - Charles "Boss"
Kettering
--
Alan
--------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.povray.org - Home of the Persistence of Vision Ray Tracer
news.povray.org - where POV-Ray enthusiasts around the world can get
together to exchange ideas, information, and experiences with others
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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Peter Popov wrote:
>
> Ken,
>
> I have always found your sense of humour really amusing though
> sometimes a bit twisted and finger-freezing :) Hence, I am 100% sure
> you are just kidding at the end of this post. Still, I'll take a bite
> at that bait, thank you :)
I was kidding in my own twisted way of course.
Ron is really no fun sometimes :)
> <takes the bait>
Fish on quick set the hook !
> When I was looking for a decent newsreader [I was using Outlook
> Express back then :( ], I grepped all lines starting with "X-Mailer"
> out of the Outlook data files and sorted them, then removed the
> duplicates. I came up with a list of newsreaders that I hadn't heard
> about, like uka_ppp, crosspoint, knews, MT-NewsWatcher, News Xpress,
> NoticiasUPU, TIN, Turnpike, WinVN etc. I then asked about those here
> in the ng. You seemed to be following the thread judging from your
> short yet informative answer (<quote Ken> Netscape </quote Ken>). So
> you've heard about TIN after all :)
Only quite recently or I had totally forgotten about it. I seem to
recall your quest for a new news program stemmed from eternal problems
with the computer you were using at the time. Netscape was crashing on
a continual basis and windows was even unstable to the point where you
could hardly operate on it anymore. At that time your quest for a stable
platform and news reader really began as I recall.
I remember this well because I was having similar problems as you and
could not for the life of me figure out what the problem was. It turned
out in my case to have been an overheating problem of my CPU. Once I
got that cooled down Windows quit crashing all the time as did Pov and
Netscape. It took me nearly 5 months to figure that out and I had to
reinstall windows and netscape several times because of system errors
caused by the overheating CPU. I never realized how unstabel a computer
could become when the /CPU overheated. Nothing was safe when it was and
any operation system or software was at risk because of it.
Serious frustration was endured during that time period but now all is
sunny and unruffled with me. In fact my current session of windows has
been running for nearly 550 hrs. now and shows no sign of stopping
unless I choose to end it myself.
> BTW I am ready to bet my disability pension that there are less than a
> dozen people in Bulgaria that have heard of POV-Ray, less than half a
> dozen that have seen it, and less than one third of a dozen that
> actually use it, and heck I'm gonna win that bet! That doesn't mean
> POV is
>
> <gulp!>
> <gathers courage>
>
> not a great program
>
> <gulp!>
> <hides in a corner>
>
> does it? :)
>
> <spits bait, ha!>
Nope your in the net buddy.
Pov is not great. It is the best !
--
Ken Tyler
See my 700+ Povray and 3D Rendering and Raytracing Links at:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html
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Matt Giwer wrote in message <37B0C653.1FF33DE0@giwersworld.org>...
> So far as I can tell, one person appears to have a problem. And
>his problem is that his newsreader is the lowest common
>denominator. And if you do not mind, that bothers me. If someone
>wants to complain my website is not compatible with Lynx, I do
>not think my response would be belligerant.
My objection to the vcards is that vcards costs me 0.0006 cents for connect
time for each message you send, plus another 0.0005 cents for the disk space
that the card takes up. I may need to file a lawsuit to recover the costs
of all these vcards :-)
Mark
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