Pan wrote:
> 
Yes, but that would also rule out the server side announcements posts,
wich Is why I decided not to limit crossposts.

-- 
//Spider    --  [ spider@bahnhof.se ]-[ http://darkmere.wanfear.com/ ]
And the devil in black dress watches over
    My guardian angel walks away
Life is short and love is always over in the morning
    Black wind come carry me far away
            --"Sisters of Mercy" -- "Temple Of Love"

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On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:22:26 GMT, povray.org admin team 
	<new### [at] DESPAMpovrayorg> wrote:
>>PLEASE don't cross post on the povray new server. It isn't necessay.
>
>As a rule, I'd like to request regular users of this server to simply not reply
>to such posts. Helping them only encourages them to do the same thing again.

[Note: newsgroups line trimmed to .general]

I didn't see the original post, but if crossposting to two groups is the
only problem, it doesn't seem like something to get upset over.  I
permanently solved my problem with crossposting by ditching Agent and
getting a newsreader that really understands crossposting and only shows
crossposted messages once.  (Yes, I know Agent SAYS it does that... has 
anyone ever seen it actually work?)

Yes, crossposting to inappropriate or too many groups is bad, but
it doesn't seem too unlikely, especially for someone who might not
be entirely familiar with netiquette, to post something to both 
.newusers and .general.  There's a lot of overlap in subject matter 
between those two groups, so it can be hard to tell which one is
appropriate, even if you read the previous posts.  New users are 
unlikely to know what percentage of people subscribe to both; in 
fact, I suspect it's sustantially smaller than even experienced
users might think.

I have to say that I don't think it's very useful to just ignore 
these people; they'll never know why they didn't get an answer if 
someone doesn't tell them, and if they don't get an answer they might
just give up on POV-Ray in frustration.  Maybe a polite email response 
giving them an answer and advising them on the finer points of netiquette 
wouldn't be out of line.  Lots of polite email responses (from different
people, of course) will help illustrate the point that crossposting can 
be annoying. :-)

The posts we should be upset about are the people asking about
programming issues in .windows, or the people asking about scripting
issues in .programming.  Perhaps a periodic post reminding people 
what the purpose of each newsgroup is wouldn't hurt in that regard.
Ideally, it would have a subject line that includes the last revision 
date so we can score it low (or killfile it) once we've read it once, 
and only see it again when it changes.  Yes, I know that information 
is listed at www.povray.org, but I'm sure a lot of people here got 
the news server address from someone on cgrr and have never even seen 
the page on www.povray.org. 

If this is generally adjudged to be a good idea, I'd be happy to 
help out in any way I can, including writing and maintaining a FAQ 
for any of the groups I subscribe to (especially povray.programming!)
Yes, I know I once said a periodic FAQ is useless on a server where
posts are kept forever, but I failed to realize how very few people
actually bother to look at older posts.

Post a reply to this message

>I didn't see the original post, but if crossposting to two groups is 

he posted to about 14 as I recall.

>permanently solved my problem with crossposting by ditching Agent and
>getting a newsreader that really understands crossposting and only shows
>crossposted messages once.  (Yes, I know Agent SAYS it does that... has 
>anyone ever seen it actually work?)

I think you may need the registered version for that.

>Yes, crossposting to inappropriate or too many groups is bad, but
>it doesn't seem too unlikely, especially for someone who might not
>be entirely familiar with netiquette, to post something to both 
>.newusers and .general.  There's a lot of overlap in subject matter 

I don't mind crossposting to two groups. But he posted in all of the following
groups :-

  povray.general
  povray.animations
  povray.binaries.animations
  povray.binaries.images
  povray.binaries.programming
  povray.binaries.scene-files
  povray.binaries.tutorials
  povray.binaries.utilities
  povray.bugreports
  povray.newusers
  povray.programming
  povray.text.scene-files
  povray.text.tutorials
  povray.windows

A person like this is not simply lacking in netiquette. He posted TWO (not one,
but TWO) messages in EACH of the above groups. This is an obvious attempt to
draw as much attention as possible to his particular problem, regardless of the
amount of time it cost other users of the server in reading his twenty-eight
messages.

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 22:58:53 GMT, new### [at] DESPAMpovrayorg
(povray.org admin team) wrote:

>>I didn't see the original post, but if crossposting to two groups is 
>
>he posted to about 14 as I recall.

Okay.  As I said, I didn't see the original message.  Or if I did,
I only saw it in one group. :)

>>permanently solved my problem with crossposting by ditching Agent and
>>getting a newsreader that really understands crossposting and only shows
>>crossposted messages once.  (Yes, I know Agent SAYS it does that... has 
>>anyone ever seen it actually work?)
>
>I think you may need the registered version for that.

I have the registered version.  I wouldn't waste my money if I had it
to do over again.  I still use it now and then, like now, but I much
prefer the simpler but cleaner slrn.

Post a reply to this message

Ron Parker <par### [at] my-dejanewscom> wrote in article
<364b0069.0@news.povray.org>...
> The posts we should be upset about are the people asking about
> programming issues in .windows, or the people asking about scripting
> issues in .programming.  Perhaps a periodic post reminding people 
> what the purpose of each newsgroup is wouldn't hurt in that regard.
> Ideally, it would have a subject line that includes the last revision 
> date so we can score it low (or killfile it) once we've read it once, 
> and only see it again when it changes.
> 
> If this is generally adjudged to be a good idea, I'd be happy to 
> help out in any way I can, including writing and maintaining a FAQ 
> for any of the groups I subscribe to (especially povray.programming!)

	I agree with you too a point, but I'd have to say that regular FAQ or
'group purpose' postings can be annoying to some, particularly those that
don't have a new reader with a 'score' or killfile facility (such as my
self - find me a FREE newsreader that has such a clean, simple and
efficient interface as MS Internet News and a Killfile option and I'll
happily change)
	I'd like to suggest that at most such postings should be no more frequent
than once a month and a copy of the FAQ and group purpose reminders should
be on the web, in fact I'd go as far to say that the regular posting should
be no more than a link to the web site, and we should have a self-policing
policy whereby we're all responsible for informing new users of each groups
purpose, should they get it wrong. Also, I think there should be some
tolerance of thread drift, some of the groups overlap and as such it's easy
for threads to start out on topic but then drift towards, if not go
completely, off topic. Obviously, if an off topic spur of a thread is
getting particularly long then it's a candidate for migration to a group
where it would be on topic, but there needs to be a balance - be too harsh
and you lose the dynamism that keeps a group alive and interesting, too
soft and you risk drowning the signal in noise.

> Yes, I know I once said a periodic FAQ is useless on a server where
> posts are kept forever, but I failed to realize how very few people
> actually bother to look at older posts.
> 

	Isn't there some kind of 'updates' flag that allows a posting to replace
and older version of the posting ? Does the povray news server support this
?

-- 
Scott Hill
Sco### [at] DDLinkscouk
Software Engineer (and all round nice guy)
Author of Pandora's Box
Company homepage : http://www.ddlinks.demon.co.uk

"The best trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people he didn't
exist..."
								- Verbal Kint.

"the Internet is here so we can waste time talking about nothing in 
 particular when we should be working" - Marcus Hill.

Post a reply to this message

On 16 Nov 1998 06:45:37 -0500, Scott Hill <sco### [at] ddlinkscouk> wrote:
>	Isn't there some kind of 'updates' flag that allows a posting to replace
>and older version of the posting ? Does the povray news server support this
>?

I believe it's "supersedes" but I'm not sure if any news servers support
it.  There's also "expires" to make the old ones go away if you know 
when there'll be a new one.  I think this is what most FAQ maintainers
use.

Re: a free newsreader with a simple interface and killfile support, have
you tried Free Agent?  (I, of course, prize functionality over interface -
why else would I be using POV? - so I choose slrn.)

Post a reply to this message

Yes, I am guilty of such a thing once (maybe more), cross-post responding. I 
realized it only after seeing the same thing in another area along with my 
reply. I now take a look at the Newsgroups heading on the message or my reply.
Speaking of which, this one has 2: povray.general,povray.newusers, so... ahem! 
wake up "admin team"! heh-heh-heh.
I hereby drop the second "newusers" from this myself.

Oops, on 2nd attempt maybe... I forgot to remove the "povray.newusers" first 
and had to cancel the first try. Must be why 'no reply at all' idea was said.

Message <364a99b7.2149180@news.povray.org>, povray.org admin team typed...
>
>>PLEASE don't cross post on the povray new server. It isn't necessay.
>>Everybody that visits these newgroups subscribes to just about all of
>>the different subject areas. povray.general and povray.newusers are
>>frequented by people willing help out with questions like this but get
>>offended when people saturate every group. It is a netiquette thingy
>
>As a rule, I'd like to request regular users of this server to simply not 
reply
>to such posts. Helping them only encourages them to do the same thing again.

-- 
 omniVERSE: beyond the universe
  http://members.aol.com/inversez/POVring.html
=Bob

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#declare bitch_mode = true;
#debug "HELP PLEASE - response";
Please refer from Cross posting (sending the same message to all groups)
ALL CAPS IN A  SUBJECT LINE and using non-descreptive subject lines. 
this will help in getting responses, and will also be of aid to you in
the future. (people will continue to help)

I suggest that you read the messages in :
news://news.povray.org/povray.announce.frequently-asked-questions

There aren't many posts there, and there is one special of your
interest. it is called 'Welcome To the POV-Ray News Groups' and is
posted by Ken Tyler. Please take the time to read this document since it
will help the rest of us.

-- 
//Spider    --  [ spider@bahnhof.se ]-[ http://darkmere.wanfear.com/ ]
And the devil in black dress watches over
    My guardian angel walks away
Life is short and love is always over in the morning
    Black wind come carry me far away
            --"Sisters of Mercy" -- "Temple Of Love"

Post a reply to this message

Spider wrote:

> I suggest that you read the messages in :
> news://news.povray.org/povray.announce.frequently-asked-questions

I am glad someone has actualy taken the time to read that :)

-- 
Ken Tyler -  1300+ Povray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

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Hey, Spider.

Nice to see your name again.

Peter

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