From time to time we of the POV-Team get bug reports or complaints that are
downright rude and sometimes also insulting. Today we received this doozy which
has to rate as one of the most rude and insulting emails we can recall
receiving this year.

First, a bit of background : 'true' English (i.e. the English language as the
English themselves spell it) uses the 'z' less often than American English.
Words such as 'minimised', 'optimised', etc, are spelt just like that - with an
's' instead of a 'z' (e.g. not 'minimized' or 'optimized').

Over the years, Americans have modified various parts of the English language
to create these variants (another good example is the US 'color' vs the English
'colour'). That's all well and good - we don't dispute the right of Americans
to change the language they speak.

However, POV-Ray is an international effort, and several of the POV authors are
not US residents. These developers generally speak English as the English do,
rather than American English (this is typical of most of the English-speaking
world, outside the USA). This means that software developed by these persons
will often use English, rather than American, spelling, unless they make an
effort to do otherwise.

That's our right and our choice. Almost every English speaker in the world
(outside the USA) knows that there are two ways of spelling some words - the
English way, and the American way.

Unfortunately, it seems that the reverse is not true. We do have, in the POVWIN
help file, a comment to that effect in the very first topic (which obviously
the person whose email is featured below didn't read).

Look at it from our point of view : if we spell something correctly, using the
English spelling, it's only fair that we ought to get peeved if someone writes
to us telling us that we 'don't know how to spell'. Non-American English
speakers would perhaps rightly get a little annoyed if an American tells them
THEY don't know how to spell, when after all it's Americans who changed the
spelling in the first place ! The original English spelling is still valid,
like it or not !

So anyhow, the person whose email to us is excerpted below seems to have the
rather strange belief that if he writes to us and insults us, somehow we'll be
only too pleased to fix the so-called 'bug' (and he did call it a bug) in our
software.

We dashed off a quick reply to him telling him - in no uncertain terms - what
we thought of his idea, but we're posting this here in the hope that some of
his fellow POV Users will also be able to explain this to him in a more
reasoned way (rather then the somewhat annoyed tone of our reply ;)

We also would like to officially nominate Jason Barlow for the 'Rudest Support
Email of 1998' award.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: jas### [at] xmissioncom
From: "Jason Barlow" <jas### [at] xmissioncom>
To: <win### [at] povrayorg>
Subject: Minor Bug...
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:03:02 -0600

[request for the following 'bug' to be fixed in version 3.1 deleted]

Whoever is writing  the string/menu resources for  the Windows version is not
very adept with words like optimized, minimized, or customized...all of which
are misspelled: optimised, minimised, and customised in POVray. Bad spelling
is just one of those things that detracts from the professionalism of the
product and makes users question the intelligence of the authors. 

[rest of email deleted]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

He's questioning _our_ intelligence ... ? ;)

-- POV-Ray Webmaster

Post a reply to this message

Congratulations Gason.

Ken


povray.org admin team wrote:

> From time to time we of the POV-Team get bug reports or complaints that are
> downright rude and sometimes also insulting. Today we received this doozy which
> has to rate as one of the most rude and insulting emails we can recall
> receiving this year.
>
> First, a bit of background : 'true' English (i.e. the English language as the
> English themselves spell it) uses the 'z' less often than American English.
> Words such as 'minimised', 'optimised', etc, are spelt just like that - with an
> 's' instead of a 'z' (e.g. not 'minimized' or 'optimized').
>
> Over the years, Americans have modified various parts of the English language
> to create these variants (another good example is the US 'color' vs the English
> 'colour'). That's all well and good - we don't dispute the right of Americans
> to change the language they speak.
>
> However, POV-Ray is an international effort, and several of the POV authors are
> not US residents. These developers generally speak English as the English do,
> rather than American English (this is typical of most of the English-speaking
> world, outside the USA). This means that software developed by these persons
> will often use English, rather than American, spelling, unless they make an
> effort to do otherwise.
>
> That's our right and our choice. Almost every English speaker in the world
> (outside the USA) knows that there are two ways of spelling some words - the
> English way, and the American way.
>
> Unfortunately, it seems that the reverse is not true. We do have, in the POVWIN
> help file, a comment to that effect in the very first topic (which obviously
> the person whose email is featured below didn't read).
>
> Look at it from our point of view : if we spell something correctly, using the
> English spelling, it's only fair that we ought to get peeved if someone writes
> to us telling us that we 'don't know how to spell'. Non-American English
> speakers would perhaps rightly get a little annoyed if an American tells them
> THEY don't know how to spell, when after all it's Americans who changed the
> spelling in the first place ! The original English spelling is still valid,
> like it or not !
>
> So anyhow, the person whose email to us is excerpted below seems to have the
> rather strange belief that if he writes to us and insults us, somehow we'll be
> only too pleased to fix the so-called 'bug' (and he did call it a bug) in our
> software.
>
> We dashed off a quick reply to him telling him - in no uncertain terms - what
> we thought of his idea, but we're posting this here in the hope that some of
> his fellow POV Users will also be able to explain this to him in a more
> reasoned way (rather then the somewhat annoyed tone of our reply ;)
>
> We also would like to officially nominate Jason Barlow for the 'Rudest Support
> Email of 1998' award.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Return-Path: jas### [at] xmissioncom
> From: "Jason Barlow" <jas### [at] xmissioncom>
> To: <win### [at] povrayorg>
> Subject: Minor Bug...
> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:03:02 -0600
>
> [request for the following 'bug' to be fixed in version 3.1 deleted]
>
> Whoever is writing  the string/menu resources for  the Windows version is not
> very adept with words like optimized, minimized, or customized...all of which
> are misspelled: optimised, minimised, and customised in POVray. Bad spelling
> is just one of those things that detracts from the professionalism of the
> product and makes users question the intelligence of the authors.
>
> [rest of email deleted]
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> He's questioning _our_ intelligence ... ? ;)
>
> -- POV-Ray Webmaster

Post a reply to this message

Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:

>  Congratulations Gason.

I'm not entirely sure what the above means.

Post a reply to this message

povray.org admin team wrote:

> Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
>
> >  Congratulations Gason.
>
> I'm not entirely sure what the above means.

  I forwarded your message to him. The misspelling of his name
was intentional. The congratulations was an attempt, along with your
message, to get him to lighten up. It was no attempt on my part at humor
at your expense. I don't care how you choose to spell words in
POV-Ray as long as it functions properly and you continue donating
such a wonderful program to the public.

Ken

Post a reply to this message

povray.org admin team wrote:
> 
> Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
> 
> >  Congratulations Gason.
> 
> I'm not entirely sure what the above means.

I think Ken wants to congratulate Jaysun.

Remco

Post a reply to this message

I know this phenomenon. There is a lot of arrogant and ignorant people out
there, which haven't learnt that they aren't better than the other people.
Although they may not consciously think that they are better or that they
know more than the other people, they have that attitude, however. This
arrogance causes them to think they have the right to "correct" other
people about their mistakes, even impolitely. They don't feel that they
should have any manners. Often they are wrong about the thing they are
trying to correct other people.
  I would like to say that those people are stupid or fool, but that wouldn't
be right in most of cases. Often those people are pretty intelligent,
occasionally even with great IQ.
  The problem with these people is lack of wisdom and experience about life
and people. They are often very young, with little experience and with big
presumptions about themselves (I don't know if this is the right term, I'm
finnish, you know, and can only think in finnish :) ).
  These kind of people make often this kind mistakes. They type very arrogant
letters or whatever and make themselves ridiculous. In most cases they are
also so supercilious they can't recognize that they have made a mistake.
  I know this because I was one of those persons. I hope that I have learnt
something so I wouldn't make those mistakes again. I often write also here
very unwise articles, but I try always to apologize if I offend someone.
  I think that we should forgive this person.

  (My english is absolutely not good enough for this kind of philosophical
text, so forgive my typing errors)

-- 
                                                           - Warp. -

Post a reply to this message

I haven't seen how Windows 95 has been sold in Europe, but did they really change
all of the documentation to the Brittish spellings of words like "colour" and
"minimised"?

Besides, at least in your POV-Ray text file "#declare Red = colour rgb <1,0,0>" is
valid.

Josh English
eng### [at] spiritonecom
www.spiritone.com/~english


povray.org admin team wrote:

> From time to time we of the POV-Team get bug reports or complaints that are
> downright rude and sometimes also insulting. Today we received this doozy which
> has to rate as one of the most rude and insulting emails we can recall
> receiving this year.
>
> First, a bit of background : 'true' English (i.e. the English language as the
> English themselves spell it) uses the 'z' less often than American English.
> Words such as 'minimised', 'optimised', etc, are spelt just like that - with an
> 's' instead of a 'z' (e.g. not 'minimized' or 'optimized').
>
> Over the years, Americans have modified various parts of the English language
> to create these variants (another good example is the US 'color' vs the English
> 'colour'). That's all well and good - we don't dispute the right of Americans
> to change the language they speak.
>
> However, POV-Ray is an international effort, and several of the POV authors are
> not US residents. These developers generally speak English as the English do,
> rather than American English (this is typical of most of the English-speaking
> world, outside the USA). This means that software developed by these persons
> will often use English, rather than American, spelling, unless they make an
> effort to do otherwise.
>
> That's our right and our choice. Almost every English speaker in the world
> (outside the USA) knows that there are two ways of spelling some words - the
> English way, and the American way.
>
> Unfortunately, it seems that the reverse is not true. We do have, in the POVWIN
> help file, a comment to that effect in the very first topic (which obviously
> the person whose email is featured below didn't read).
>
> Look at it from our point of view : if we spell something correctly, using the
> English spelling, it's only fair that we ought to get peeved if someone writes
> to us telling us that we 'don't know how to spell'. Non-American English
> speakers would perhaps rightly get a little annoyed if an American tells them
> THEY don't know how to spell, when after all it's Americans who changed the
> spelling in the first place ! The original English spelling is still valid,
> like it or not !
>
> So anyhow, the person whose email to us is excerpted below seems to have the
> rather strange belief that if he writes to us and insults us, somehow we'll be
> only too pleased to fix the so-called 'bug' (and he did call it a bug) in our
> software.
>
> We dashed off a quick reply to him telling him - in no uncertain terms - what
> we thought of his idea, but we're posting this here in the hope that some of
> his fellow POV Users will also be able to explain this to him in a more
> reasoned way (rather then the somewhat annoyed tone of our reply ;)
>
> We also would like to officially nominate Jason Barlow for the 'Rudest Support
> Email of 1998' award.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Return-Path: jas### [at] xmissioncom
> From: "Jason Barlow" <jas### [at] xmissioncom>
> To: <win### [at] povrayorg>
> Subject: Minor Bug...
> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:03:02 -0600
>
> [request for the following 'bug' to be fixed in version 3.1 deleted]
>
> Whoever is writing  the string/menu resources for  the Windows version is not
> very adept with words like optimized, minimized, or customized...all of which
> are misspelled: optimised, minimised, and customised in POVray. Bad spelling
> is just one of those things that detracts from the professionalism of the
> product and makes users question the intelligence of the authors.
>
> [rest of email deleted]
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> He's questioning _our_ intelligence ... ? ;)
>
> -- POV-Ray Webmaster

Post a reply to this message

Hear Hear Ken

mick hazelgrove

Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote in article
<360119CE.494DD9D2@pacbell.net>...
> povray.org admin team wrote:
> 
> > Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
> >
> > >  Congratulations Gason.
> >
> > I'm not entirely sure what the above means.
> 
>   I forwarded your message to him. The misspelling of his name
> was intentional. The congratulations was an attempt, along with your
> message, to get him to lighten up. It was no attempt on my part at humor
> at your expense. I don't care how you choose to spell words in
> POV-Ray as long as it functions properly and you continue donating
> such a wonderful program to the public.
> 
> Ken
> 
> 
> 
>

Post a reply to this message

Josh English wrote in message <36013B15.12B901EE@spiritone.com>...
>I haven't seen how Windows 95 has been sold in Europe, but did they really
change
>all of the documentation to the Brittish spellings of words like "colour"
and
>"minimised"?


I don't know, but it's not like W95 would be sold in English over here in
Europe. Well, in Great Britain, Ireland etc. it probably is :-)
I made a quick check: The international W95 CDs of the MSDN contain W95
versions for the languages below (for some of which I have no idea what they
are :-), but I could not find a British-English version, and on the U.S.
version CD contains only one language version.

:-)
Johannes.

------------
Arabic.ena
Arabic.loc
Basque
Braport
Catalan
Czech
Dansih
Dutch
Finnish
French
German
Greek
Hebrew
Hungarian
Iberport
Italian
Japanese.98
Japanese.at
Korean
Norwegian
Paneuro
Polish
Russion
Slovakian
Slovenian
Spanish
Swedish
Thai
Turkish
Vietnam
Simplyfied Chinese
Traditional Chinese
and probably some more I missed...

Post a reply to this message

In article <36014a24.0@news.povray.org> , "Johannes Hubert" <jhu### [at] algonetse>
wrote:

>I don't know, but it's not like W95 would be sold in English over here in
>Europe. Well, in Great Britain, Ireland etc. it probably is :-)
>I made a quick check: The international W95 CDs of the MSDN contain W95
>versions for the languages below (for some of which I have no idea what they
>are :-), but I could not find a British-English version, and on the U.S.
>version CD contains only one language version.

Well, try the Apple Macintoshs Mac OS, Apple offers a "British"(!!!!) Mac OS! This is
the prove that MS even wants to enforce language standards outside the computer world,
isn't? ;-)


Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany

Post a reply to this message

In article <3602fde1.47561389@news.povray.org> , new### [at] DESPAMpovrayorg
(povray.org admin team) wrote:

>From time to time we of the POV-Team get bug reports or complaints that are
>downright rude and sometimes also insulting. Today we received this doozy which
>has to rate as one of the most rude and insulting emails we can recall
>receiving this year.
>
>First, a bit of background : 'true' English (i.e. the English language as the
>English themselves spell it) uses the 'z' less often than American English.
>Words such as 'minimised', 'optimised', etc, are spelt just like that - with an
>'s' instead of a 'z' (e.g. not 'minimized' or 'optimized').

[.....]

>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Return-Path: jas### [at] xmissioncom
>From: "Jason Barlow" <jas### [at] xmissioncom>
>To: <win### [at] povrayorg>
>Subject: Minor Bug...
>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:03:02 -0600
>
>[request for the following 'bug' to be fixed in version 3.1 deleted]
>
>Whoever is writing  the string/menu resources for  the Windows version is not
>very adept with words like optimized, minimized, or customized...all of which
>are misspelled: optimised, minimised, and customised in POVray. Bad spelling
>is just one of those things that detracts from the professionalism of the
>product and makes users question the intelligence of the authors. 
>
>[rest of email deleted]
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>He's questioning _our_ intelligence ... ? ;)
>
>-- POV-Ray Webmaster


Education and knowledge are gifts and not all people have these gifts :-(
And thinking before writing is another "gift" this person does not have. BUT he should
have!!! After all POV-Ray is *FREE* and there is *NO* justification for such an
assault!


Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany

Post a reply to this message

Remco de Korte wrote:
> I think Ken wants to congratulate Jaysun.

No no, he's clearly congratulating Dzheyconne.

-- 
As always,
Wykan

(remove the "nospam." from my reply address to e-mail)

Post a reply to this message

Johannes Hubert wrote:
> 
> Josh English wrote in message <36013B15.12B901EE@spiritone.com>...
> >I haven't seen how Windows 95 has been sold in Europe, but did they really
> change
> >all of the documentation to the Brittish spellings of words like "colour"
> and
> >"minimised"?
> 
> I don't know, but it's not like W95 would be sold in English over here in
> Europe. Well, in Great Britain, Ireland etc. it probably is :-)
> I made a quick check: The international W95 CDs of the MSDN contain W95
> versions for the languages below (for some of which I have no idea what they
> are :-), but I could not find a British-English version, and on the U.S.
> version CD contains only one language version.
> 
> :-)
> Johannes.
> 
> ------------
> Arabic.ena
> Arabic.loc
> Basque
[SNIP]

Just FYI, at the Unicode conference last week, the guy showing Office
2000 (I think that's one deadline they'll at least be able to make)
mentioned that 50% of the Office revenues are from English sales, and
only 40% from the US. That leaves 10% non-US English.

Post a reply to this message

Well, I'm an American and I find it very aggravating that the rest of the
world won't come around to OUR way of thinking.  I mean, doesn't it make a
lot more sense to have 12 inches in a foot and 3 feet in a yard and 5280
feet in a mile?  What's with all this base ten measuring systems?
Zappameters and dayglometers or whatever!!
Besides, "Z" is just a cool letter. :-)

Just my two cents  (American currency, of course!)

<MAJOR SNIP>
>He's questioning _our_ intelligence ... ? ;)
>
>-- POV-Ray Webmaster

Post a reply to this message

I am not a native English speaker, I'm Bulgarian. I've studied into an
American school here in BG and am quite used to American English. During the
five years of my study, however, I've always been taught (by Americans) that
both spellings are acceptable. I know this is the case with TOEFL, SAT, even
SAT II Writing. It is considered bad style, but not a mistake, to use both
American and British English in the same document. I think I should send
this person my English books from the preparatory grade. I don't need them
anymore, but he certainly does.

As most non-native speakers I'd prefer the British (i.e. English) spelling
as being the more widely spread of the two, but it is a choice of the Team
and they have already made it. After all, they give POV for free, and they
don't force anybody to use it. If the sender of the insulting message feels
so much uncomfortable with British spelling, well, there's a POV 3.0
documentation in Japanese he could use.

Please excuse me for any spelling, grammar on styllistic mistakes I have
made.

Peter

Post a reply to this message

Forgive him, he simply doesn't know better. And hopefully
he has learned his lesson now.

BTW:
When I learned English at school it was "pure British".
(It's better today, they learn both at school, at
least in writing. Pronounciation is still British.)
And we learned _only_ "z" there. Being made curious by this
discussion I tried to find out. I went through all
dictionaries my wife (she's an English teacher) owns
(about 5). They are all British and say unisono "organize,
optimize, ...". (E.g. "Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary
of Current English").

So shouldn't it be the other way around: Z=British, S=US?

Forgive me being nit-picking, it's just out of curiosity.

Hans

PS: Continue keeping POV "bilingual". It's The Right Thing IMHO.

-----
Remove n.o-s.p.a.m. to obtain my real address.
-----

================================
In seeking the unattainable,
simplicity only gets in the way.
-- ACM SIGPLAN Sept. 1982
================================

povray.org admin team wrote:
[ . . . ]
> We also would like to officially nominate Jason Barlow for the 'Rudest Support
> Email of 1998' award.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Return-Path: jas### [at] xmissioncom
> From: "Jason Barlow" <jas### [at] xmissioncom>
> To: <win### [at] povrayorg>
> Subject: Minor Bug...
> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:03:02 -0600
> 
> [request for the following 'bug' to be fixed in version 3.1 deleted]
> 
> Whoever is writing  the string/menu resources for  the Windows version is not
> very adept with words like optimized, minimized, or customized...all of which
> are misspelled: optimised, minimised, and customised in POVray. Bad spelling
> is just one of those things that detracts from the professionalism of the
> product and makes users question the intelligence of the authors.
> 
> [rest of email deleted]
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> He's questioning _our_ intelligence ... ? ;)
> 
> -- POV-Ray Webmaster

Post a reply to this message

Hi ! I guess that your message has to be taken with irony. I do not want to
start
any 'quibble' here, but I have never understood how you could manage with such

intricate measurements. When I spent my working year in Scotland, I noticed
that even people (at least the younger ones) you have been brought up with
inches, stones, miles and  feet tend to use the metric system.

Granted, this post is a bit off topic, but that's my say.

H.Fabien

Greg Sanders a écrit:

> Well, I'm an American and I find it very aggravating that the rest of the
> world won't come around to OUR way of thinking.  I mean, doesn't it make a
> lot more sense to have 12 inches in a foot and 3 feet in a yard and 5280
> feet in a mile?  What's with all this base ten measuring systems?
> Zappameters and dayglometers or whatever!!
> Besides, "Z" is just a cool letter. :-)
>
> Just my two cents  (American currency, of course!)
>
> <MAJOR SNIP>
> >He's questioning _our_ intelligence ... ? ;)
> >
> >-- POV-Ray Webmaster

Post a reply to this message

Johannes Hubert wrote in message <36014a24.0@news.povray.org>...
>I don't know, but it's not like W95 would be sold in English over here in
>Europe. Well, in Great Britain, Ireland etc. it probably is :-)
>I made a quick check: The international W95 CDs of the MSDN contain W95
>versions for the languages below (for some of which I have no idea what
they
>are :-), but I could not find a British-English version, and on the U.S.
>version CD contains only one language version.
>
>:-)
>Johannes.


>(...)

I do not know about documentation nor distribution...
But MS Word proposes these 'english languages' for checking spelling
(please, don't check mine):

+English (Australian)
+English (British)
+English (Canadian)
+English (Carribean)
+English (Ireland)
+English (Jamaica)
+English (New Zealand)
+English (South Africa)
+English (United States)

Post a reply to this message

> 
> We also would like to officially nominate Jason Barlow for the 'Rudest Support
> Email of 1998' award.
> 

He's GOT MY VOTE!!

Jason your chances of winning look REALLY, REALLY GOOD!!

What COLOUR is his award certificate?
Does he MAXIMISE his EGO by MINIMISING his KNOWLEDGE?
Does he even OWN an English language dictionary?

These questions and MORE will be answered at the AWARDS CEREMONY...

-- 
Best regards,
 _ __                      _    ,   _ _ _
' )  )     /         _/_  ' )  /   ' ) ) )
 /--' ____/___/> __  /     /--/     / / / __,_  __  o _   ______
/  \_(_) /_) (__/ (_<__   /  ( o   / ' (_(_) (_/ (_<_/_)_(_) / <_

Robert H. Morrison                      Tel:   +49 721 9628 167
Software Development, Basis Team        FAX:   +49 721 9628 261
Hitex-Systementwicklung GmbH            Email: RMorrison@hitex.de

Post a reply to this message

Thorsten Froehlich wrote in message <36015953.0@news.povray.org>...
>In article <3602fde1.47561389@news.povray.org> , new### [at] DESPAMpovrayorg
(povray.org admin team) wrote:
>
>And thinking before writing is another "gift" this person does not have.
BUT he should have!!! After all POV-Ray is *FREE* and there is *NO*
justification for such an assault!


You are ABSOLUTELY right!!! If I pay for a program, I might complain
(POLITELY, because the people who wrote it are humans like everybody else
and can make mistakes) but when I get a free program, I always get MORE than
what I payed for it.... ;-)

Post a reply to this message

"povray.org admin team" wrote:
<SNIP>

> very adept with words like optimized, minimized, or customized...all of which
> are misspelled: optimised, minimised, and customised in POVray. Bad spelling
> is just one of those things that detracts from the professionalism of the
> product and makes users question the intelligence of the authors.
>
> [rest of email deleted]
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> He's questioning _our_ intelligence ... ? ;)
>
> -- POV-Ray Webmaster

That's pretty funny, considering Windows 98 uses the 'Z' spelling also. I have to
agree with the POV team on this one. Keep up the the good work guys.

--
Daniel Hargreaves
SD Graphics
--
ArchSymb 98
http://home.att.net/~dkh007/archsymb
CADD Standards
http://home.att.net/~dkh007/caddstd

Post a reply to this message

Well, I understand how someone could find that easier.  After all, if you're
brought up speaking one language, you'll find it hard speaking a second
language.  The same goes for all measurements too.  Personally, I find
metric easier (especially with MAX grid manipulation).  However, I totally
understand.  Happy tracing!!!

--
Lance.


---
For the latest MAX plug-ins, images and much more, go to:
The Zone - http://come.to/the.zone

Post a reply to this message

Well, I just find it downright funny that someone could be so rude and
ignorant.  I mean, I've submitted bug reports (I'm sure a lot of people here
have) but never in a tone like that, and especially not so uninformed!  Does
anyone here think that I should set up a little place for this person on my
website?  Perhaps a kind of shrine to the 'Rudest Support
Email of 1998.

All I can say is, Jason, you have REALLY outdone yourself!

--
Lance.

"Maximise you vocab, get an English dictionary today!"

---
For the latest MAX plug-ins, images and much more, go to:
The Zone - http://come.to/the.zone

Post a reply to this message

:)

If you look at it, even the letter Z (pronounced zed of course)  is arrogant.
All those angles and straight lines.

Its kinda like a backwards S really ;)

Anyway, it's natural that a ray-tracing product should use the more subtle British S.

Much more scope for those nice curvy reflections that we like.

David
A British sort of chap.

Hmm - Maybe it should be Jazon?

Post a reply to this message

David Greaves wrote:

> If you look at it, even the letter Z (pronounced zed of course)  is arrogant.
> All those angles and straight lines.

"Pronounced zed" ?

In my albeit American opinion there are too few words
containing the cool letter Z. S's are like opions almost
every word has one ;  )
Imagine how you would feel if you couldn't cop a few
Z'zzzzz once in while.

> Anyway, it's natural that a ray-tracing product should use the more subtle British
S.

Natural is as natural does.

> David
> A British sort of chap.
> Hmm - Maybe it should be Jazon?

  Jason ? Wasn't he that monstrous kid in the movie
Friday the 13th ?
He's Back and He's Ruder than Ever.
Now playing on Pov-Ray bug reports everywhere.

Ken

Post a reply to this message

Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:

>David Greaves wrote:
>
>> If you look at it, even the letter Z (pronounced zed of course)  is arrogant.
>> All those angles and straight lines.
>
>"Pronounced zed" ?

Yep. The English way of saying the letter 'z' is 'zed'. Americans (and American
influenced countries) say 'zee'.

There's a bunch of other stuff, too. Most of them relate to Americans
'simplifying' words or sounds to make them either easier to pronounce, or
easier to say. Hence colour becomes color, Aluminium becomes Aluminum, and so
forth.

Post a reply to this message

povray.org admin team wrote:

> Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
>
> >David Greaves wrote:
> >
> >> If you look at it, even the letter Z (pronounced zed of course)  is arrogant.
> >> All those angles and straight lines.
> >
> >"Pronounced zed" ?
>
> Yep. The English way of saying the letter 'z' is 'zed'. Americans (and American
> influenced countries) say 'zee'.
>
> There's a bunch of other stuff, too. Most of them relate to Americans
> 'simplifying' words or sounds to make them either easier to pronounce, or
> easier to say. Hence colour becomes color, Aluminium becomes Aluminum, and so
> forth.

    I agree with what you say although the British are not
immune from doing the same thing. Take the common
expressions "telly" and "uni" for the correct pronounciation
of television and university.
    Either way it is no excuse for ridicule, calling it a progam bug,
and taking up your time with such trivialities.

Ken

Post a reply to this message

povray.org admin team wrote:
> 
> Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
> 
> >David Greaves wrote:
> >
> >> If you look at it, even the letter Z (pronounced zed of course)  is
> arrogant.
> >> All those angles and straight lines.
> >
> >"Pronounced zed" ?
> 
> Yep. The English way of saying the letter 'z' is 'zed'. Americans (and
> American
> influenced countries) say 'zee'.
> 
> There's a bunch of other stuff, too. Most of them relate to Americans
> 'simplifying' words or sounds to make them either easier to pronounce,
> or
> easier to say. Hence colour becomes color, Aluminium becomes Aluminum,
> and so
> forth.

Aha! That's where the Aluminum comes from! And I thought I was wrong in
think it should be Aluminium. Goes to show how imperialistic .... (oh
never mind)

Remco

Post a reply to this message

Using the English (British) Win95 right now - and Word 97 British... and
Encarta World English Edition...
Yup.. they do exist ;)

Matt

Post a reply to this message

I ssooo hope you're joking here - though you can never quite be sure
sometimes ;)

Matt

Post a reply to this message

Nice one POV-Team - it's great you're aware of the international (including
British English users) use of your program :)

It can only help get more people in to POV!

Wow.. this has created one of the biggest news-threads I've seen though :P


Matt

Post a reply to this message

>Whoever is writing  the string/menu resources for  the Windows version is
not
>very adept with words like optimized, minimized, or customized...all of
which
>are misspelled: optimised, minimised, and customised in POVray. Bad
spelling
>is just one of those things that detracts from the professionalism of the
>product and makes users question the intelligence of the authors.


"What's the point of being ignorant, if you can't show it!"
                                                    Farmer in County Kerry,
Ireland

Post a reply to this message

Az an American az well, I would like to zay that I think thiz personz complaint iz
a perfectly good one.  Fine, wordz like optimized, minimized, and customized might
not in any way impact the actual performanze of the program, but who are U 2 write
anything that doezn't conform to the U Z of A'z form of mutilated Englizh.  We are
the ones who have taken the lowly Z and made it into zomething useful.  Until we
got our handz on it, the only uze for it waz when writing the word zebra.  What a
wazte.

Therefore, I would like to izzue a formal requezt for the following zyntax:

zphere
zuperellipzoid
zor
tranzmit
tranzlate
zcale
zpiral1
zpiral2
wrinklz
mezh
zpotted
zpecular
roughnezz

Therz probably more, but I'm too upzet too think of them.  Az a matter of fact, the
only one you got right waz bozo!

sinzerily,

zelda ziznadiznorn
UZA


povray.org admin team wrote:

> We also would like to officially nominate Jason Barlow for the 'Rudest Support
> Email of 1998' award.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Return-Path: jas### [at] xmissioncom
> From: "Jason Barlow" <jas### [at] xmissioncom>
> To: <win### [at] povrayorg>
> Subject: Minor Bug...
> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:03:02 -0600
>
> [request for the following 'bug' to be fixed in version 3.1 deleted]
>
> Whoever is writing  the string/menu resources for  the Windows version is not
> very adept with words like optimized, minimized, or customized...all of which
> are misspelled: optimised, minimised, and customised in POVray. Bad spelling
> is just one of those things that detracts from the professionalism of the
> product and makes users question the intelligence of the authors.
>
> [rest of email deleted]
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> He's questioning _our_ intelligence ... ? ;)
>
> -- POV-Ray Webmaster

Post a reply to this message

err, i agree its silly someone requests a bugremovement cos there
are misspelled (only in the eyes of guys outside usa) words.

but its against any netiquette to post privat email in a newsgroup.

let abu### [at] xmissioncom or the sysadmin of xmission deal with
jason barlows rudeness.

>Return-Path: jas### [at] xmissioncom
>From: "Jason Barlow" <jas### [at] xmissioncom>
>To: <win### [at] povrayorg>
>Subject: Minor Bug...
>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:03:02 -0600

>[request for the following 'bug' to be fixed in version 3.1 deleted]

>Whoever is writing  the string/menu resources for  the Windows version is not
>very adept with words like optimized, minimized, or customized...all of which
>are misspelled: optimised, minimised, and customised in POVray. Bad spelling
>is just one of those things that detracts from the professionalism of the
>product and makes users question the intelligence of the authors.

>[rest of email deleted]

--
LOAD "WIN95",8,1
RUN

Post a reply to this message

What about the lowly Z-Buffer? ;-)
And what about "The Zone" ;-)

--
Lance.


---
For the latest MAX plug-ins, images and much more, go to:
The Zone - http://come.to/the.zone

Post a reply to this message

>err, i agree its silly someone requests a bugremovement cos there
>are misspelled (only in the eyes of guys outside usa) words.

it's not the request that is the problem. it's the extreme rudeness (didn't you
notice that?)

>but its against any netiquette to post privat email in a newsgroup.

1) not all of the email was posted (just the offending section)

2) mail sent to the bug reporting address is hardly 'private'.
   'private' email is that sent between individuals for the
   purpose of communications. a bug report is obviously something
   that may be disseminated to others (that's half the reason for
   sending them in some cases).

so your comments don't apply in this case. we do not consider bug reports
private.

Post a reply to this message

> >but its against any netiquette to post privat email in a newsgroup.
> 
> 1) not all of the email was posted (just the offending section)
> 
> 2) mail sent to the bug reporting address is hardly 'private'.
>    'private' email is that sent between individuals for the
>    purpose of communications. a bug report is obviously something
>    that may be disseminated to others (that's half the reason for
>    sending them in some cases).
> 
> so your comments don't apply in this case. we do not consider bug reports
> private.

hmmm... a good point, and a good reply...
I know I'm splitting hairs here, but I've gotta say this: I think it's safe to
say that Jason considered his e-mail to be private, and certainly not to be
posted in a newsgroup to be laughed at. As inconsiderate as he may be, he
doesn't deserve our unkindness in return. Whether all of the e-mail was posted
or not isn't really the point; some of it was posted, and his e-mail address
was not omitted (I haven't checked to see whether it is an actual address),
presumably without his knowledge. That's questionable netiquette, especially
considering the tone of the post ("We also would like to officially nominate
Jason Barlow for the 'Rudest Support Email of 1998' award.") I would be
surprised if he hasn't received other e-mails, which were actually encouraged:

>we're posting this here in the hope that some of
>his fellow POV Users will also be able to explain this to him in a more
>reasoned way (rather then the somewhat annoyed tone of our reply ;)

Chances are that not all of them were intelligently and patiently written.
Personally, I hope that the quick reply, written "in no uncertain terms", was
enough for Jason to realise how thoughtless he was. If not, then he may flaunt
his ignorance elsewhere, with other consequences. I agree that he was
surprisingly inconsiderate, but he doesn't deserve this public ridicule. Had
he posted that message himself, I wouldn't post this one, but he didn't, so I have.



-Mark R.
(considering what a Macophile I am, it's amusing that I'm posting to
'povray.windows'...)

(to e-mail, change "SPAM" to spa)

Post a reply to this message

povray.org admin team wrote in message
<3608448d.85304010@news.povray.org>...

>2) mail sent to the bug reporting address is hardly 'private'.
>   'private' email is that sent between individuals for the
>   purpose of communications. a bug report is obviously something
>   that may be disseminated to others (that's half the reason for
>   sending them in some cases).
>
>so your comments don't apply in this case. we do not consider bug reports
>private.


Bug Reports:HowTo

1. Note: Other people will read and likely archive your bug report.
2. Your purpose is to send data, isn't it?
3. You did remember to *remove* argumentative material?
4. Data, especially reproducible data, speaks for itself.
5. Mild guessing as to nature/cause/breeding/ancestory of bug is ok.
6. Promulgating a manifesto for your preferred redesign of POV is not ok.

... plus all the normal stuff
(
snippet of illustrative script,
sysinfo,
using the correct email address to send report to,
recognizable cognitive boundary between the potential problem
you are pointing to and your favorite color ... etc.
)

Any other additions, emendations, ... ?

Post a reply to this message

In some ways your reasoning makes sense, though I still feel that someone
posting an email to a generic bug reporting address (win### [at] povrayorg in this
case) ought to realise that at the very least, his report could go into a
publicly accessable bug database (that certainly is not unique in the industry
... I can cite the example of the Apache group (makers of the Apache web
server, which is the most popular on the internet) as a good example. As I
recall, all their bug reports are searchable by the public.

IMO it's never safe to 'assume' that any mail sent to a bug reporting address
is private (I certainly would not make that assumption).

However, to make sure this is known by users, a comment has been added to the
windows help file under the bug reports section telling them so. In addition,
we no longer will be taking Windows bug reports by email (that's not directly
related to this incident, though it didn't help). In future, all reports for
the Windows version must go to a newsgroup on this server.

Post a reply to this message

>5. Mild guessing as to nature/cause/breeding/ancestory of bug is ok.

6. mild guessing as to nature/cause/breeding/ancestory of POV authors is not ;)

Post a reply to this message

Lance Birch wrote:
> 
> What about the lowly Z-Buffer? ;-)
> And what about "The Zone" ;-)

Hey, come to think of it, I haven't seen a Z80 version of POV-Ray. That's
probably a bug.

:*)

Jerry

Post a reply to this message

Greg Sanders wrote:

> Well, I'm an American and I find it very aggravating that the rest of
> the
> world won't come around to OUR way of thinking.  I mean, doesn't it
> make a
> lot more sense to have 12 inches in a foot and 3 feet in a yard and
> 5280
> feet in a mile?  What's with all this base ten measuring systems?
> Zappameters and dayglometers or whatever!!
> Besides, "Z" is just a cool letter. :-)
>
> Just my two cents  (American currency, of course!)
>
> <MAJOR SNIP>
> >He's questioning _our_ intelligence ... ? ;)
> >
> >-- POV-Ray Webmaster

  I can understand that you (and with you, I mean most Americans) really
like your inches and feet; but if you're not used to it, it can be very
difficult to use.
So I just think that's just a matter of getting used to it.

You're right about the 'Z'.  It is a cool letter...  (My name starts
with an Z ;)
(No, my name isn't Hendrik, that's my brother.  My name is Zeger
Knaepen)

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     Hendrik Knaepen (hen### [at] skynetbe)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
          Idee Software -- Vlaamse ShareWare
            E-Mail: ide### [at] inamecom
         WWW: http://www.surf.to/ideesoftware
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
  Bezoek ons voor gratis Nederlandstalige spellen!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Post a reply to this message

I'm only kidding about the inches and feet (well, I'm kidding about the
whole thing!)  I was raised with this crazy (crasy?  it just doesn't work
for everything!) system and I think that's why I am so bad at eyeballing
measurements.  It all boils down to this...  Do it your own way and don't
complain when everyone else doesn't!

This has got to be the longest thread I have ever seen!

Hendrik Knaepen wrote in message <360941D2.1FF0EF93@skynet.be>...
>Greg Sanders wrote:
>
>> Well, I'm an American and I find it very aggravating that the rest of
>> the
>> world won't come around to OUR way of thinking.  I mean, doesn't it
>> make a
>> lot more sense to have 12 inches in a foot and 3 feet in a yard and
>> 5280
>> feet in a mile?  What's with all this base ten measuring systems?
>> Zappameters and dayglometers or whatever!!
>> Besides, "Z" is just a cool letter. :-)
>>
>> Just my two cents  (American currency, of course!)
>>
>> <MAJOR SNIP>
>> >He's questioning _our_ intelligence ... ? ;)
>> >
>> >-- POV-Ray Webmaster
>
>  I can understand that you (and with you, I mean most Americans) really
>like your inches and feet; but if you're not used to it, it can be very
>difficult to use.
>So I just think that's just a matter of getting used to it.
>
>You're right about the 'Z'.  It is a cool letter...  (My name starts
>with an Z ;)
>(No, my name isn't Hendrik, that's my brother.  My name is Zeger
>Knaepen)
>
>--
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>     Hendrik Knaepen (hen### [at] skynetbe)
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>          Idee Software -- Vlaamse ShareWare
>            E-Mail: ide### [at] inamecom
>         WWW: http://www.surf.to/ideesoftware
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>  Bezoek ons voor gratis Nederlandstalige spellen!
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
>

Post a reply to this message

Matthew Bennett <ben### [at] btinternetcom> wrote in article
<3605700a.0@news.povray.org>...
> Using the English (British) Win95 right now 

	What makes you believe it's a British version ? My bet is you're using the
us version just set up with English (British) as its language. Try this -
go to Control Panel, run Regional Settings then on the Regional Settings
tab change the drop down list to another language, say French (Canadian),
are you now using a French (Canadian) version of Win95 ? no, you're using
the us version with a French (Canadian) language. Want more proof ? Go to
Start->Help, select the index tab and type "colour" into the edit box at
the top, now try "color", see the online help is still in English
(American).
	Basically, all you do when you set up the operating system and application
language is determine how stuff like numbers and dates are shown and what
spelling checker dictionary is used you don't actually change the
nationality the OS or app.

-- 
Scott Hill
Sco### [at] DDLinkscouk
Software Engineer (and all round nice guy)
Author of Pandora's Box
Company homepage : http://www.ddlinks.demon.co.uk

"The best trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people he didn't
exist..."
								- Verbal Kint.

"the Internet is here so we can waste time talking about nothing in 
 particular when we should be working" - Marcus Hill.

Post a reply to this message

Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote in article
<36054595.82F405B0@pacbell.net>...
> povray.org admin team wrote:
> 
>     I agree with what you say although the British are not
> immune from doing the same thing. Take the common
> expressions "telly" and "uni" for the correct pronounciation
> of television and university.

<pointless pedantry>

	Actually "telly" and "uni" are abbreviations. And any how it's our
language do with what we please, the rest of you lot are just borrowing it.

<\pointless pedantry>

-- 
Scott Hill
Sco### [at] DDLinkscouk
Software Engineer (and all round nice guy)
Author of Pandora's Box
Company homepage : http://www.ddlinks.demon.co.uk

"The best trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people he didn't
exist..."
								- Verbal Kint.

"the Internet is here so we can waste time talking about nothing in 
 particular when we should be working" - Marcus Hill.

Post a reply to this message

Scott Hill wrote:

> Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote in article
> <36054595.82F405B0@pacbell.net>...
> > povray.org admin team wrote:
> >
> >     I agree with what you say although the British are not
> > immune from doing the same thing. Take the common
> > expressions "telly" and "uni" for the correct pronounciation
> > of television and university.
>
> <pointless pedantry>
>
>         Actually "telly" and "uni" are abbreviations. And any how it's our
> language do with what we please, the rest of you lot are just borrowing it.
> <\pointless pedantry>
> --
> Scott Hill

Borrowing it Sir ? Why the population base of North America
originaly started as a British colony. Throw in some Frenchies,
a few spanish, and and a handfull of  Dutch. It's been over 200
years now since we decided the British way of life was too
restrictive and you guy's just can't seem to get over it. We have
forgiven you though.
    Now as far as "we" just borrowing your language that just is
not true. The "American" language is evolving at a tremendous rate.
We are absorbing the worlds homeless, in large numbers annualy,
and as a consequence it is becoming a true multi-national language.
     America ! We are the world.

Ken Tyler

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:35:56 GMT, new### [at] DESPAMpovrayorg
(povray.org admin team) wrote:

>In addition,
>we no longer will be taking Windows bug reports by email (that's not directly
>related to this incident, though it didn't help). In future, all reports for
>the Windows version must go to a newsgroup on this server.

I hope that detail is mentioned in the final documentation that is
distributed with the program. If not, you will still get some people
sending you email bug reports, simply because they followed the
instructions in the older documentation. Not all users will have
access to this news server.

Later,

Glen Berry

Home -> http://www.ezwv.com/~mclilith/index.html
IMP  -> http://www.algonet.se/~jhubert/MovieProject/index.html

To reply via personal email, remove the "X" from Xno### [at] ezwvcom

Post a reply to this message

>I hope that detail is mentioned in the final documentation that is
>distributed with the program. If not, you will still get some people

It is.

Post a reply to this message

povray.org admin team wrote in message
<3608e9cd.27610181@news.povray.org>...

> In addition,
>we no longer will be taking Windows bug reports by email (that's not
directly
>related to this incident, though it didn't help). In future, all reports
for
>the Windows version must go to a newsgroup on this server.

Will there be new newsgroups at news.povray.org?

A heirarchy something like ...

povray.bug   ------>post faq on bug here and howto?
povray.bug.{platform}  ---->would be active only for current version?

If you do this - would it work better as moderated newsgroups
and to add [ticket] tags?

Above suggested in case the model followed is the Apache open
bugbase model.

Post a reply to this message

<anti flame device>
PLEASE NOTE: What I write here I do not truly believe, read just a smidgen
of sarcasm into everything I write in this post.
<\anti flame device>

Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote in article
<360A5B41.AC58D40D@pacbell.net>...
> Scott Hill wrote:
> 
> > Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote in article
> > <36054595.82F405B0@pacbell.net>...
> > > povray.org admin team wrote:
> > >
> > >     I agree with what you say although the British are not
> > > immune from doing the same thing. Take the common
> > > expressions "telly" and "uni" for the correct pronounciation
> > > of television and university.
> >
> > <pointless pedantry>
> >
> >         Actually "telly" and "uni" are abbreviations. And any how it's
our
> > language do with what we please, the rest of you lot are just borrowing
it.
> > <\pointless pedantry>
> > --
> > Scott Hill
> 
> Borrowing it Sir ? Why the population base of North America
> originaly started as a British colony. Throw in some Frenchies,
> a few spanish, and and a handfull of  Dutch. It's been over 200
> years now since we decided the British way of life was too
> restrictive and you guy's just can't seem to get over it. We have
> forgiven you though.

	What you mean is it's been over 200 years since we kicked you out of our
country and now you all go round corrupting our language and thinking you
rule the world. Just remember we did rule the world once (or a good
proportion of it). ;-)

>     Now as far as "we" just borrowing your language that just is
> not true. The "American" language is evolving at a tremendous rate.
> We are absorbing the worlds homeless, in large numbers annualy,
> and as a consequence it is becoming a true multi-national language.

	Just 'cos you go round bastardising our beautiful language it don't make
it yours. And you think absorbing the worlds homeless is a good thing ?
Sure take in the dregs of society if you wish, then the rest of us can use
you as dumping ground for our unwanted trash. The multi-nationality of
English has more to do with our conquering a good part of the civilised
world than the over-inflated American ego. ;-)

>      America ! We are the world.

	Urrgh! Just thinking about that damn song makes me want to hurl.

<anti flame device>
Once again let emphasise that I DO NOT really mean most of that (I'm not
really as xenophobic as this sounds), please add a liberal sprinkling of
smileys, thankyou.
<\anti flame device>
-- 
Scott Hill
Sco### [at] DDLinkscouk
Software Engineer (and all round nice guy)
Author of Pandora's Box
Company homepage : http://www.ddlinks.demon.co.uk

"The best trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people he didn't
exist..."
								- Verbal Kint.

"the Internet is here so we can waste time talking about nothing in 
 particular when we should be working" - Marcus Hill.

Post a reply to this message