"POV-Ray is free... the internet isn't!"

An open letter from POV-Team coordinator
Chris Young

        One of my greatest pleasures as POV-Team coordinator is the
joyful emails I get from people who are surprised and grateful that
such a great program is free.  Even in an impersonal medium like
email, you can feel the joy and amazement when they see what a free
program can do.  Its like Santa just brought them a wonderful free toy
for grown-ups!

        It reminds me of my early years growing up in the late '50s in
middle-class, midwest, suburban America where my life as a 5 year old
was so carefree.  We weren't rich but there was always food, clothes,
and toys in abundance.  Relatives were generous on birthdays, Santa
delivered free stuff each year and when you wanted a gum ball at the
store, Mom always had an extra penny to put in the machine.

        It really shocked me one day when I saw Mom give money to the
milk man.  I asked why and Mom said "You gotta pay for it silly!".  I
though milk delivery was a free service from the government!  Further
investigation revealed that we don't pay the mail man but that stamps
cost money.  You don't pay the garbage man but there was something
called taxes involved there too.  How horrible!

        Somehow the internet community has adopted that same innocent
idea that I had at age 5 that everything is free or at least very
inexpensive.  Its true that for $15-$20 a month I can get unlimited
access, email and even my own home page.  However once you create
something people want to see, the costs can skyrocket.

        Team member Chris Cason has managed to negotiate various deals
to maintain our sites ftp.povray.org and www.povray.org for the past
several years.  Proceeds from CD-ROM sales and the small income from
our CompuServe GO POVRAY forum have helped to subsidize the expense
but recently things have gone way beyond the Team's ability to
support.

        In a recent month, we used over 100 gigabytes of bandwidth at
a cost of over $1,200 per month!  Clearly we aren't going to sell that
many CDs on a continual basis.  We've tried to minimize our site to
improve things but that's just a temporary fix.  We hope to do later
round beta testing and eventually full public release of POV-Ray 3.1
at povray.org which will make matters even worse.
        It is painful for me to be so blunt but I must remind everyone
that POV-Ray existed before povray.org and POV-Ray can continue
without povray.org if need be.  We are close to folding up the whole
operation unless we can get corporate sponsorship for the site.
        We do not want individual donations from users.  It would be
too hard to handle hundreds of $5-$10 donations.  Also the POV-Team is
not officially incorporated either as profit or non-profit.  Donations
can create tax problems for us.  Here are a few suggestions on how you
can help -

  o if you work in the industry (or any industry that could benefit
     from sponsoring some of the www.povray.org costs) you should 
     talk to your employers about sponsorship.

  o ditto for advertising. if you have a product, talk to your
    employers about possibly advertising on the site.

  o if you work in the retail industry, you could lobby their buyers
     to consider making a purchase of some IRTC CD's for resale.

        Our hope is that if a large bunch of users start lobbying
their bosses, we might see some things happen.  Please contact us at
w10### [at] povrayorg if you can help.

        The important thing to remember during this crisis is that the
5-year-old kid in me and in the other POV-Team members is still fully
committed to keeping POV-Ray itself fully free for the 5-year-old kids
in you.  We will not sell POV-Ray itself, but it is beginning to cost
us quite a bit of money just to offer it to you for free.  If we hope
to be able to deliver it for free, we're going to need some help.
        cy

p.s. feel ree to re-post this to other newsgroups or online services.

Post a reply to this message

povray.org admin team wrote:
> 
> "POV-Ray is free... the internet isn't!"

[mucho snippage]

>         It is painful for me to be so blunt but I must remind everyone
> that POV-Ray existed before povray.org and POV-Ray can continue
> without povray.org if need be.  We are close to folding up the whole
> operation unless we can get corporate sponsorship for the site.
>         We do not want individual donations from users.  It would be
> too hard to handle hundreds of $5-$10 donations.  Also the POV-Team is
> not officially incorporated either as profit or non-profit.  Donations
> can create tax problems for us.

[more snippage]
  
>         The important thing to remember during this crisis is that the
> 5-year-old kid in me and in the other POV-Team members is still fully
> committed to keeping POV-Ray itself fully free for the 5-year-old kids
> in you.  We will not sell POV-Ray itself, but it is beginning to cost
> us quite a bit of money just to offer it to you for free.  If we hope
> to be able to deliver it for free, we're going to need some help.
>         cy
> 
> p.s. feel ree to re-post this to other newsgroups or online services.


I haven't the foggiest idea about tax ramifications and whatnot and
completely sympathize. I'm sure I speak for everyone in saying that
we'd all like to help. However, aside from buying multiple copies of
the CD, it seems there isn't a way for the average user to help. Could
a non-profit entity be set up, kinda like a charity but not legally
tied to the POV-team, dedicated strictly to the online publication and 
distribution of POV? Hell, I'm no lawyer, but it seems there's gotta
be a way if advertising or corporate sponsorship doesn't become
available.

Just my 2 cents.

Post a reply to this message

Considering the outrageous price tag on commercial art software I would
happily pay $100 for POV-Ray.  Maybe the answer is some kind of reasonably
priced MEMBERSHIP in a "POV_Ray organization".  Membership would maybe
entitle you to access to the POV-Ray newsgroups, or maybe a newsletter or
POV magazine.  Or it might be advisable <gasp!> to make POV-Ray shareware. 
I'd rather pay for what I'm getting and be able to GET IT than to loose
access to the resources you're providing.

--Gary.

Wayne Gordon <way### [at] phoenixnet> wrote in article
<354### [at] phoenixnet>...
> povray.org admin team wrote:
> > 
> > "POV-Ray is free... the internet isn't!"
> 
> [mucho snippage]
> 
>

Post a reply to this message

Totally agree!  Would be a pity to lose such terrific program!!
I would totally kill for a Povray magazine too ;-)

Bryan Garnett-Law

Gary Shannon wrote in message <01bd7075$81359960$097a89d0@reboot>...
>Considering the outrageous price tag on commercial art software I would
>happily pay $100 for POV-Ray.  Maybe the answer is some kind of reasonably
>priced MEMBERSHIP in a "POV_Ray organization".  Membership would maybe
>entitle you to access to the POV-Ray newsgroups, or maybe a newsletter or
>POV magazine.  Or it might be advisable <gasp!> to make POV-Ray shareware.
>I'd rather pay for what I'm getting and be able to GET IT than to loose
>access to the resources you're providing.
>
>--Gary.
>
>Wayne Gordon <way### [at] phoenixnet> wrote in article
><354### [at] phoenixnet>...
>> povray.org admin team wrote:
>> >
>> > "POV-Ray is free... the internet isn't!"
>>
>> [mucho snippage]
>>
>>

Post a reply to this message

Bryan Garnett-Law wrote in message <6htpmj$qj4$1@oz.aussie.org>...
>Totally agree!  Would be a pity to lose such terrific program!!
>I would totally kill for a Povray magazine too ;-)
>
>Bryan Garnett-Law
>
>Gary Shannon wrote in message <01bd7075$81359960$097a89d0@reboot>...
>>Considering the outrageous price tag on commercial art software I would
>>happily pay $100 for POV-Ray.  Maybe the answer is some kind of reasonably
>>priced MEMBERSHIP in a "POV_Ray organization".  Membership would maybe
>>entitle you to access to the POV-Ray newsgroups, or maybe a newsletter or
>>POV magazine.  Or it might be advisable <gasp!> to make POV-Ray shareware.
>>I'd rather pay for what I'm getting and be able to GET IT than to loose
>>access to the resources you're providing.


I would be HAPPY to help, and I would even offer my linux box as a
distribution point. Unfortunately, as Chris said, when you pay for data
transfer it gets a little horrendous.

As for the magazine idea, I think it would be great. But the question here,
is.. Will it go the same way as the Pov-Zine? Is there the user base? I
would be happy to publish one, as I have connections here in Edmonton.
However, the problem is... Is there enough content to do so? I'm
encountering problems when trying to get articles for my site. If I could
manage to pay people, I would.. I'd love to support Pov-Ray even more.

As for shareware, unfortunately, what I know would happen, is that people
will use it, and not actually register it. If the source is available, why
bother trying? If the source isn't available, that's all well and good, but
it would put a stop to all the wonderful patches people are doing. If you
make Pov-Ray crippleware, where parts are disabled, nobody would use it. Sad
but true.

I don't have much in the way of financial resources, but if there was a way,
maybe with a "banner" service, to do more for Pov-Ray I would.
Unfortunately, with the only banner programs I know of, the Pov-Team would
only get like 5 cents, if someone clicked on them. That's a pittance.

If the cost is in maintaining the website, I'd be happy to do so. I have the
time and inclination to maintain a website on a daily basis. Unfortunately,
I don't have a decent location for it. It's either at GeoCities, which is
slow at times, or in my company's webspace. My boss wouldn't have a problem,
but there would be no place for the files. Good point about both options, is
that the hits and data transfer don't matter. You could do a data transfer
of 1000Gig, and they wouldn't care. I just joined the GeoCities "GeoPlus"
program. It gives me 20 megs of space, with extra space available at $2.50
per 5 meg. They will also host Virtual URLs, at another $5 a month. The
option is there... If this is the case, I would have NO problem with
covering these costs myself.

Twyst================================
EFnet and NewNet #povray Channel Operator
Website: http://twyst.home.ml.org
E-Mail: twy### [at] v-wavecom
=====================================

Post a reply to this message

Has anyone considered taking a 'distributed' approach?  E.g. there are
many POV related sites out in internet land...what if the povray.org site
only served as a central location for accessing POV pages located
thoughout the internet.  Those of us with some space and some bandwidth
could host a portion of the site...the povray webmasters could have access
to various sites to update pages as needed.

Just a thought.

Brian

povray.org admin team wrote:

> "POV-Ray is free... the internet isn't!"
>

Post a reply to this message

Your idea sounds like a good one... mirror web/ftp sites around the world.

;-)

Bryan
Brian W. Brown wrote in message
<3542B087.B9FD8A37@appstate.campus.mci.net>...
>Has anyone considered taking a 'distributed' approach?  E.g. there are
>many POV related sites out in internet land...what if the povray.org site
>only served as a central location for accessing POV pages located
>thoughout the internet.  Those of us with some space and some bandwidth
>could host a portion of the site...the povray webmasters could have access
>to various sites to update pages as needed.
>
>Just a thought.
>
>Brian
>
>povray.org admin team wrote:
>
>> "POV-Ray is free... the internet isn't!"
>>
>
>
>

Post a reply to this message

Gary Shannon <reb### [at] teleportcom> wrote in article
<01bd7075$81359960$097a89d0@reboot>...
> Considering the outrageous price tag on commercial art software I would
> happily pay $100 for POV-Ray.  Maybe the answer is some kind of
reasonably
> priced MEMBERSHIP in a "POV_Ray organization".  Membership would maybe
> entitle you to access to the POV-Ray newsgroups, or maybe a newsletter or
> POV magazine.  Or it might be advisable <gasp!> to make POV-Ray
shareware. 
> I'd rather pay for what I'm getting and be able to GET IT than to loose
> access to the resources you're providing.
> 
> --Gary.
> 

$100? Shareware? Nnnnooooo!!!  Don't let POV go the same way as everything
else :/ I'm sure (apart from it being the greatest raytracer around) one of
the main reasons it's so popular is because it's freeeeeee!  I know a lot
of hard work goes into POV, and perhaps it seems a bit unfair to expect
such a great product to be free... but it's managed before.  

If people are suggesting povray should become some old shareware "please
register" thing simply to keep povray.org up, then just scrap povray.org. 
What's the big deal?

With so many "fan" sites around on the internet, there would be no problem
with storing files etc.  As for the news server, there's always
comp.graphics.rendering.raytracing?...

Another great program, SubSpace, was recently made from freeware to
shareware.  Since then, many problems have arisen and it's simply become a
lot less popular.  It was only available to buy in the USA and in dollars,
though (like me) many of the players were in Europe.  All that's happened
to it now is that most people just get it on warez sites.

Can you really imagine POV available on some warez site?? :(
Would you expect Fractint to be one too?

Matt

> "POV-Ray is free... the internet isn't!"
So what's the problem? ;)

Post a reply to this message

"Gary Shannon" <reb### [at] teleportcom> writes:

> 
> Considering the outrageous price tag on commercial art software I would
> happily pay $100 for POV-Ray.  Maybe the answer is some kind of reasonably
> priced MEMBERSHIP in a "POV_Ray organization".  Membership would maybe
> entitle you to access to the POV-Ray newsgroups, or maybe a newsletter or
> POV magazine.  Or it might be advisable <gasp!> to make POV-Ray shareware. 
> I'd rather pay for what I'm getting and be able to GET IT than to loose
> access to the resources you're providing.

I do agree. The idea of a membership price is (to my mind) good.
But, there are several points that can be hard to manage: I guess we
would get trouble if we just paid for nothing. So, the newsletter (or
magazine) is a way to give back something. I think we could easily turn
the authors (or coordinators) of The Rendering Times (or The POV-Ray Times,
I cannot remember what name they chose) into giving you the SGML source,
which one could easily convert to Postscript and print, then send.

As for the shareware, I do not quite agree with you, for hte same reasons
as have been exposed in another followup to your article.

POV-Ray forever,

Roland.
-- 
          --+* Roland « B-o-b » Mas *+--
bob### [at] casimirrezelenstfr -- Linux, POV-Ray, LaTeX

Post a reply to this message

>$100? Shareware? Nnnnooooo!!!  Don't let POV go the same way as everything
>else :/ I'm sure (apart from it being the greatest raytracer around) one of

We can promise you that it never ever will be shareware. It will always be
free.

-- POV-Team

Post a reply to this message

"Bryan Garnett-Law" <bjm### [at] wantreecomau> wrote:

>Your idea sounds like a good one... mirror web/ftp sites around the world.
>
>;-)
>
>Bryan
>Brian W. Brown wrote in message
><3542B087.B9FD8A37@appstate.campus.mci.net>...
>>Has anyone considered taking a 'distributed' approach?  E.g. there are
>>many POV related sites out in internet land...what if the povray.org site
>>only served as a central location for accessing POV pages located
>>thoughout the internet.  Those of us with some space and some bandwidth
>>could host a portion of the site...the povray webmasters could have access
>>to various sites to update pages as needed.

This is one approach we can take, but we really don't want to. Apart from
everything else, we still have a disk space problem. Our ISP charges us
US$1.00 per meg per month for everything over 100 megs. We simply can't
have a decent site to mirror with that sort of cost (remember our old
filebase ? 1000mb or so ?). And if we can't have the master files on our own
server, it becomes really hard to administer, especially if we allow uploads.

-- POV-Team

Post a reply to this message

>Considering the outrageous price tag on commercial art software I would
>happily pay $100 for POV-Ray.  Maybe the answer is some kind of reasonably
>priced MEMBERSHIP in a "POV_Ray organization".  Membership would maybe
>entitle you to access to the POV-Ray newsgroups, or maybe a newsletter or
>POV magazine.  Or it might be advisable <gasp!> to make POV-Ray shareware. 
>I'd rather pay for what I'm getting and be able to GET IT than to loose
>access to the resources you're providing.
.... I agree on the entire line, expect in one point.
Pov-Ray should remian free software.
But we can support Pov Web sites throught the "Pov ray organization" you proposed. It
can have an annual fee which includes a Pov Magazine, together with a Web Magazine
either sent to members of the organization.
Another idea is to retrict download of big files from povray.org sites, i.e.: allow
direct download only to registred members, because bandwidht does cost a lot. Other
people can always download Pov and related stuffs for its mirrors.
We now have lots of mirrors spreaded in the world.
And people going always to povray.org
It's possible to redirect request for big files (i.e. >30 Kb) to mirrors which are
often manteined by Internet Service Provider which have interest in maintaining faster
access to sites thourght mirroring.
Or it's possible to directly redirect everyone to the nearest mirror, looking at their
emails (for domains)... it can be done with a smart Cgi script.
These are all solutions that allow us to set down very quickly the need for bandwidht,
redirecting them smartly to other sources of information.


 ___________________________________________________________________
/ Redaelli Paolo EMail: red### [at] incit | Known as Tybor on #Amiga, \
| POV-Team Amiga                        | #AmIrc and #AmigaIta      |
| Porter of AmiForge, GForge, Lparser   \---------------------------+
| Fantasy home page: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4950     |
\___________________________________________________________________/

Post a reply to this message

Matthew Bennett <ben### [at] btinternetcom> wrote in article
<01bd7101$ba99f5c0$a52b63c3@mrbcomp>...
> 
> Gary Shannon <reb### [at] teleportcom> wrote in article
> <01bd7075$81359960$097a89d0@reboot>...
> > Considering the outrageous price tag on commercial art software I would
> > happily pay $100 for POV-Ray.  

<snip>

> 
> $100? Shareware? Nnnnooooo!!!  Don't let POV go the same way as
everything
> else :/ I'm sure (apart from it being the greatest raytracer around) one
of
> the main reasons it's so popular is because it's freeeeeee!  I know a lot
> of hard work goes into POV, and perhaps it seems a bit unfair to expect
> such a great product to be free... but it's managed before.  

You are right, of course, and I appologize for even THINKING of making
POVRay shareware in my earlier post. 

I think the issue is to keep povray.org alive as a service to POVRay users.
 And I agree that POVRay should remain FREEWARE.  I'm writing my own
tga->avi/mpeg "movie editor" system, and I plan to put it out as FREEWARE. 
I'm writing it because I need it, not to make a profit.  That's how POVRay
got started, and that's how it should continue.

But perhaps there are some other services that povray.org could offer that
would be worth paying for.  The CD-ROMs for example.  

--Gary.

Post a reply to this message

OK, I've got it!

A whole bunch of POV-Ray users band together to create a block-buster
feature-length movie created entirely in POV-Ray.  Then the box office
proceeds and video tape and DVD sales can go to support povray.org.  The
only question is, with so many contributors, who gets custody of the 'Best
Picture" Oscar?

Seriously, those "Mind's Eye" CGA tapes sell pretty well.  Something like
that could be a fun group project.

--Gary.

Post a reply to this message

Gary Shannon wrote:

> Maybe the answer is some kind of reasonably
> priced MEMBERSHIP in a "POV_Ray organization".  Membership would maybe
> entitle you to access to the POV-Ray newsgroups, or maybe a newsletter or
> POV magazine.

This really looks like the way the HTML writers guild works. They function as
a non-profit educational society and have several levels of free or paying
membership, described at:

http://www.hwg.org/member/levels.html

--
François DISPOT
http://www.geocities.com/vienna/7709

Post a reply to this message

Bryan Garnett-Law (bjm### [at] wantreecomau) wrote:
: Gary Shannon wrote in message <01bd7075$81359960$097a89d0@reboot>...
: >Considering the outrageous price tag on commercial art software I would
: >happily pay $100 for POV-Ray.  Maybe the answer is some kind of reasonably

: Totally agree!  Would be a pity to lose such terrific program!!

  I don't. Pov-team didn't say povray itself is in danger, but the povray.org
site and all those resources. If I understood right, the program itself will
be developed and will be free.
  I'm a student, and I really don't have that amount of money. My bank
account is right now 2 marks (about $0.4), ie. I don't even have money for
food until next month (I have some cash, but very little). And this is not
a unusual situation. $100 is a LOT more than I can afford.
  I'm really happy that povray is free (and it will still be in the future).
I'm afraid that when povray will cost $100 I will be an ex-povray user :(
  Povray.org is really useful, and it would be nice if they solve their
problems. Unfortunately I can't help in any way.

--
                                                              - Warp. -

Post a reply to this message

povray.org admin team (new### [at] povrayorg) wrote:
: We can promise you that it never ever will be shareware. It will always be
: free.

  Thanks! I love you.

--
                                                              - Warp. -

Post a reply to this message

And I would be happy to contribute with some CPU power and some ideas if that were to
be done.

Cherio,
Al.


Gary Shannon wrote:

> OK, I've got it!
>
> A whole bunch of POV-Ray users band together to create a block-buster
> feature-length movie created entirely in POV-Ray.  Then the box office
> proceeds and video tape and DVD sales can go to support povray.org.  The
> only question is, with so many contributors, who gets custody of the 'Best
> Picture" Oscar?
>
> Seriously, those "Mind's Eye" CGA tapes sell pretty well.  Something like
> that could be a fun group project.
>
> --Gary.

--
ANTI SPAM / ANTI ARROSAGE COMMERCIAL :
Pour me répondre, veuillez enlever le Z de mon adresse.
To answer me, please take out the Z from my address.

Post a reply to this message

Gary,

What a great idea - I am continually amazed by the incredible talent that I
see in fellow POV Ray users - I think it could be done!  Seriously!

Brian

Gary Shannon wrote:

> OK, I've got it!
>
> A whole bunch of POV-Ray users band together to create a block-buster
> feature-length movie created entirely in POV-Ray.  Then the box office
> proceeds and video tape and DVD sales can go to support povray.org.  The
> only question is, with so many contributors, who gets custody of the 'Best
> Picture" Oscar?
>
> Seriously, those "Mind's Eye" CGA tapes sell pretty well.  Something like
> that could be a fun group project.
>
> --Gary.

Post a reply to this message

"Gary Shannon" <reb### [at] teleportcom> wrote:
>
> Seriously, those "Mind's Eye" CGA tapes sell pretty well.  Something like
> that could be a fun group project.

It sounds like a *lot* of fun.





-- 
Jeff Lee         shi### [at] gatenet         http://www.gate.net/~shipbrk/

Post a reply to this message

>> A whole bunch of POV-Ray users band together to create a block-buster
>> feature-length movie created entirely in POV-Ray.  Then the box office
>> proceeds and video tape and DVD sales can go to support povray.org.  The
>> only question is, with so many contributors, who gets custody of the
'Best
>> Picture" Oscar?


Can you imagine the tux rental fees???

I'm cracking encryption in the background, I see no reason I couldn't trace
that way too.
(Distributed.net  Knights of Xenu)

Post a reply to this message

Actually, the reason I'm writing the Moviloa AVI editing program is because
I've scripted/storyboarded a 10 minute POV-made SCI Fi movie and couldn't
find a tool to do the editing with.  As far as "feature length" goes, I was
actually just kidding, but... hmmmm.. maybe there's something worth
thinking about there. 

--Gary.

Brian W. Brown <jab### [at] appstatecampusmcinet> wrote in article
<354683E9.67C73D4D@appstate.campus.mci.net>...
> Gary,
> 
> What a great idea - I am continually amazed by the incredible talent that
I
> see in fellow POV Ray users - I think it could be done!  Seriously!
> 
> Brian
> 
> Gary Shannon wrote:
> 
> > OK, I've got it!
> >
> > A whole bunch of POV-Ray users band together to create a block-buster
> > feature-length movie created entirely in POV-Ray.  Then the box office
> > proceeds and video tape and DVD sales can go to support povray.org. 
The
> > only question is, with so many contributors, who gets custody of the
'Best
> > Picture" Oscar?
> >
> > Seriously, those "Mind's Eye" CGA tapes sell pretty well.  Something
like
> > that could be a fun group project.
> >
> > --Gary.
> 
> 
> 
>

Post a reply to this message

Just a followup ...

we've had a number of good responses and it appears that at this stage,
POVRAY.ORG will not only survive, but get better ! there is no guarantees but
it's on the cards that it will move to another location with gobs of disk space
and a connection at least as good as the one we've got now.

Post a reply to this message

WOO HOO!

Bryan

povray.org admin team wrote in message <35484814.1069928@news.povray.org>...
>Just a followup ...
>
>we've had a number of good responses and it appears that at this stage,
>POVRAY.ORG will not only survive, but get better ! there is no guarantees
but
>it's on the cards that it will move to another location with gobs of disk
space
>and a connection at least as good as the one we've got now.
>
>

Post a reply to this message

povray.org admin team wrote:
> 
> Just a followup ...
> 
> we've had a number of good responses and it appears that at this stage,
> POVRAY.ORG will not only survive, but get better ! there is no guarantees but
> it's on the cards that it will move to another location with gobs of disk space
> and a connection at least as good as the one we've got now.

We'll all be keeping our fingers crossed that this comes to pass.
In the meantime, thanks again for a great program....from all the
five-year-olds in all of us!

Post a reply to this message

Hey Gary:

Two words - Toy Story.  I am serious - if a story could be picked and properly
story boarded... distribute the tasks of modeling etc.  Then get EVERYONE to
render portions.....Hey it is no more crazy than the following thought:

Hey lets make this great ray tracer, you know - one that has a better engine
than programs that cost thousands of dollars.  A whole bunch of programers can
work on it and heck - lets give it away for free!

Sounds kinda crazy - don't it?

Brian

Gary Shannon wrote:

> Actually, the reason I'm writing the Moviloa AVI editing program is because
> I've scripted/storyboarded a 10 minute POV-made SCI Fi movie and couldn't
> find a tool to do the editing with.  As far as "feature length" goes, I was
> actually just kidding, but... hmmmm.. maybe there's something worth
> thinking about there.
>
> --Gary.
>

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YESSSS!!!!!!!

--
Lance Birch
Remove the smiley to e-mail.
http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/ambient/lance

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Brian W. Brown wrote:
> 
> Hey Gary:
> 
> Two words - Toy Story.  I am serious - if a story could be picked and properly
> story boarded... distribute the tasks of modeling etc.  Then get EVERYONE to
> render portions.....Hey it is no more crazy than the following thought:
> 
> Hey lets make this great ray tracer, you know - one that has a better engine
> than programs that cost thousands of dollars.  A whole bunch of programers can
> work on it and heck - lets give it away for free!
> 
> Sounds kinda crazy - don't it?
> 
> Brian

Sounds like a damn good idea to me! I mean the idea of making a film.
Not necessarily the 'free giveaway' idea. I thought the object was to
keep the povray.org site going.
  
Anyone got a hot contact in Hollywood?

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On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:47:01 GMT, new### [at] povrayorg (povray.org
admin team) wrote:

>Just a followup ...
>
>we've had a number of good responses and it appears that at this stage,
>POVRAY.ORG will not only survive, but get better ! there is no guarantees but
>it's on the cards that it will move to another location with gobs of disk space
>and a connection at least as good as the one we've got now.
>
>
Excellent, though I'm hoping a client of mine (a marketing company)
may respond to my e-mail sent earlier today with interest.

In the meantime I still like the idea of a POv-Ray film (i've been
working on little animations myself). How about a bunch of POV users
doing something even if it's not needed to keep the web site up?
Cheers,

Cliff Bowman
Why not pay my 3D Dr Who site a visit at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/7855/
PS change ".duffnet" to ".net" if replying via e-mail

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On 30 Apr 1998 01:43:07 GMT, "Gary Shannon" <reb### [at] teleportcom>
wrote:

>Actually, the reason I'm writing the Moviloa AVI editing program is because
>I've scripted/storyboarded a 10 minute POV-made SCI Fi movie and couldn't
>find a tool to do the editing with.  As far as "feature length" goes, I was
>actually just kidding, but... hmmmm.. maybe there's something worth
>thinking about there. 
>
Hmmm I've been doing a little AVI editing myself (real simple stuff -
actually most recently a title sequence for an amateur video based on
an old British SF show called "Doctor Who"). What kind of features you
planning to have - and how do i get to find out when it's imminent?

Meanwhile I seem to recall that M$ have (or had) their videdit program
on the net for all to download - and I've checked my logs and found
the following address for it:
ftp://ftp.microsoft.com/developr/drg/Multimedia/Jumpstart/VfW11e/DK/WINVIDEO/
Since I've not checked it lately I can't promise it will still be
there, but so long as you can download all the bits you'll be in a
position to make and/or edit AVI's although editing is pretty much
down to putting a frame in or taking it out, synchronising the frame
speed and placing sound etc. (no pretty fades or suchlike).


Cheers,

Cliff Bowman
Why not pay my 3D Dr Who site a visit at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/7855/
PS change ".duffnet" to ".net" if replying via e-mail

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Cliff Bowman wrote in message <3550efcf.199947237@news.povray.org>...
>Excellent, though I'm hoping a client of mine (a marketing company)
>may respond to my e-mail sent earlier today with interest.
>
>In the meantime I still like the idea of a POv-Ray film (i've been
>working on little animations myself). How about a bunch of POV users
>doing something even if it's not needed to keep the web site up?
>Cheers,
>
>Cliff Bowman
>Why not pay my 3D Dr Who site a visit at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/7855/


Or instead of one large movie - what about small complete skits/thingies.
Like in Liquid Televison.

Fran.

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I'm working on a little Sci-Fi film, about 5 to 6 minutes in length.  What
I'm trying to do is get away from the pointless
"gee-whiz-look-what-I-can-do" kind of animation and tell a genuine, serious
story from start to finish.

--Gary

Fran & Melissa <ffi### [at] ihugconz> wrote in article
<6it8r7$g01$1@oz.aussie.org>...
> 
> Cliff Bowman wrote in message <3550efcf.199947237@news.povray.org>...
> >Excellent, though I'm hoping a client of mine (a marketing company)
> >may respond to my e-mail sent earlier today with interest.
> >
> >In the meantime I still like the idea of a POv-Ray film (i've been
> >working on little animations myself). How about a bunch of POV users
> >doing something even if it's not needed to keep the web site up?
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Cliff Bowman
> >Why not pay my 3D Dr Who site a visit at
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/7855/
> 
> 
> Or instead of one large movie - what about small complete skits/thingies.
> Like in Liquid Televison.
> 
> Fran.

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povray.org admin team <new### [at] povrayorg> wrote in article
<35416296.3926425@news.povray.org>...
> "POV-Ray is free... the internet isn't!"
> 
> An open letter from POV-Team coordinator
> Chris Young
> 
<snip letter about poor financial situation>

	You know this was all inevitable really, just run the word POVRAY through
an MS spelling checker and you'll see what I mean. ;-) or should that be
;-(

-- 
Scott Hill
Sco### [at] DDLinkscouk
Software Engineer (and all round nice guy)

"The best trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people he didn't
exist..."
								- Verbal Kint.

"the Internet is here so we can waste time talking about nothing in 
 particular when we should be working" - Marcus Hill.

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Hi Cliff, Hi all,

Count me in the bunch if you don't mind. I just don't really want to organise it, but
I would be very pleased to contribute with ideas and CPU.

Cherio,
Al.


Cliff Bowman wrote:

> Excellent, though I'm hoping a client of mine (a marketing company)
> may respond to my e-mail sent earlier today with interest.
>
> In the meantime I still like the idea of a POv-Ray film (i've been
> working on little animations myself). How about a bunch of POV users
> doing something even if it's not needed to keep the web site up?
> Cheers,

--
ANTI SPAM / ANTI ARROSAGE COMMERCIAL :
Pour me répondre, veuillez enlever le Z de mon adresse.
To answer me, please take out the Z from my address.

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You mean you're going to give us your CPU? ;-)

But seriously, I'd be happy to help too.

--
Lance Birch
Remove the smiley to e-mail.
http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/ambient/lance

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There seem to be a handfull of people interested in a group movie making
project.  Any voluteers to coordinate the project? (I guess what we need is
a "producer" to spearhead the whole thing.)

Maybe a central web-page or newsgroup to provide a meeting place for people
interested in the project?  A place to exchange ideas and information,
divide up the tasks, etc. etc.....

--Gary.

Lance Birch <:-)Lan### [at] tpgicomau> wrote in article
<6j46gm$r6a$1@oz.aussie.org>...
> You mean you're going to give us your CPU? ;-)
> 
> But seriously, I'd be happy to help too.
> 
> --
> Lance Birch
> Remove the smiley to e-mail.
> http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/ambient/lance
> 
> 
>

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>Maybe a central web-page or newsgroup to provide a meeting place for people
>interested in the project?  A place to exchange ideas and information,
>divide up the tasks, etc. etc.....


I can donate some webspace to this, no problem. maybe even a web
board/mailing list. E-mail me if you're interested.

Twyst=====================================
pov-ray news, reviews and tutorials
http://twysted.net
e-mail: twy### [at] twystednet
==========================================

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I'd be happy to be a co-producer (I wouldn't want to be *the* producer
though, because I think that's a bit much for me).  I can always help out
and come up with ideas if that's what you need.

I hear Twyst can get webspace, it would be nice to set up a site for ideas
(a FormMail converter to send comments from people to someone's e-mail
adress: POV-Team???).

--
Lance Birch
Remove the smiley to e-mail.
http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/ambient/lance

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Actually, I was thinking about it a bit more...

(I know what you must be saying: WOW, he's thinking!!!)

I really do think we could make something cool out of this.  The only
problem is, we need a script!

Also, we need to get some questions answered:

How long will it be?
What will it be about?
Who's making the models?
Who's doing the animating?
What program could we use to do the animating?

I can probably help out with things like models and animation
(object/camera/light movements etc. IK?)

So who's in? (NO!!! Don't all answer that at once!  There could be a
flooding of people!)

Also, should we go the whole hog and make this, say, feature-length?

So 1 3/4 hours at 30 fps, that's 189000 frames, at what, 512x384?

--
Lance Birch
Remove the smiley to e-mail.
http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/ambient/lance

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Lance Birch (:-)Lan### [at] tpgicomau) wrote:
: How long will it be?
: What will it be about?
: Who's making the models?
: Who's doing the animating?
: What program could we use to do the animating?

  And what about sound and music? A soundtrack? Human voices? Sound effects?

--
                                                              - Warp. -

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"Lance Birch" <:-)Lan### [at] tpgicomau> wrote:
>
> I really do think we could make something cool out of this.  The only
> problem is, we need a script!

If it were done along the lines of the "Mind's Eye" videos, a script
isn't really necessary; the one I have consists of segments from many
sources (some only a couple of seconds long), put together in groups of
similar themes and set to music.

Something like this would let people do whatever caught their interest,
perhaps even rendering themselves, and the editor or editors could
simply arrange them into groups.


> So 1 3/4 hours at 30 fps, that's 189000 frames, at what, 512x384?

What standard(s) would be used?  NSTC? PAL? HDTV?  How well will frames
in one format translate into the others?

How about music?  I've done a bit of soundtrack-type composing; anyone
else here a composer?


-- 
Jeff Lee         shi### [at] gatenet         http://www.gate.net/~shipbrk/

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Hi All,

Gary Shannon wrote:

> There seem to be a handfull of people interested in a group movie making
> project.  Any voluteers to coordinate the project? (I guess what we need is
> a "producer" to spearhead the whole thing.)

You're going to like that one : you wrote 'spearhead' but for a short while I believed
I had read 'shepherd', sort of the same idea anyway, isn't it ?


> Maybe a central web-page or newsgroup to provide a meeting place for people
> interested in the project?  A place to exchange ideas and information,
> divide up the tasks, etc. etc.....

Yes, we do need someone there with some experience and a lot of spare time. A student
who has already got some sort of experience of project co-ordination would be an ideal
person.
If you also want to go to the bother of having a newsgroup, that requires another
dedicated person just to maintain this side of things.

I do not have time for that sort of heavy involvement, as I have one very demanding
project, but I will have some time for contributing (and unlike what Lance joked about
: no I won't give my CPU, no way - just a bit of time on it). Also if help was
required with languages, I do speak French and my partner in life speaks Polish ...

But before we start anything, we should know what sort of way we want to work : just
ad hoc - as the inspiration comes, or very organised & structured - both can be cool
and manageable provided we know what we want.

Cheers,
Al.

--
ANTI SPAM / ANTI ARROSAGE COMMERCIAL :
Pour me répondre, veuillez enlever le Z de mon adresse.
To answer me, please take out the Z from my address.

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Alain CULOS wrote in message <3556295E.29AAC4B7@bigfoot.com>...

[Snippity]

>Yes, we do need someone there with some experience and a lot of spare time.
A student who has already got some sort of experience of project
co-ordination would be an ideal person.
>If you also want to go to the bother of having a newsgroup, that requires
another dedicated person just to maintain this side of things.
>

Exactly. I personally DO have the time for the maintainance of a mailing
list/Web board, etc. I can't run a news server tho. ( I don't think so at
least, but if wanted, I'll look into it. )

Also, I would like to point out.. I do *NOT* want to "manage" this. All I
want to do is maintain a website, etc. if necessary. Heck, I have a hard
enough time managing MYSELF! =P

>I do not have time for that sort of heavy involvement, as I have one very
demanding project, but I will have some time for contributing (and unlike
what Lance joked about : no I won't give my CPU, no way - just a bit of time
on it). Also if help was required with languages, I do speak French and my
partner in life speaks Polish ...

Heh, I'm almost exactly the opposite. I have little or no creativity, when
it comes to graphics, so I'll contribute it the other direction.

>
>But before we start anything, we should know what sort of way we want to
work : just ad hoc - as the inspiration comes, or very organised &
structured - both can be cool and manageable provided we know what we want.

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Hi everyone!

"Lance Birch" <:-)Lan### [at] tpgicomau> wrote:

> Also, we need to get some questions answered:
> 
> How long will it be?
> What will it be about?
> Who's making the models?
> Who's doing the animating?
> What program could we use to do the animating?

And:
what version of povray to use? For some things it could definatly
be worthwhile using some of the patches to povray. 

BTW, Maybe I could help with a newsserver. I'm not sure. Have to look
into that one a little bit deeper. (The student computer club have lots
of cpu servers online, to use just for fun).

/ Mathias Broxvall

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Just some brainstorming...

Realistic human characters are hard to get right.  That leaves toys,
puppets, cartoon-style (maybe 2d from 3d methods), robots,... any others?
(Pinoccio? Howdy Doody? Communist Robot Monsters from Outer Space? 
Something along the lines of the old Reboot TV show?)

As for each animator doing a seperate piece and editing them all together,
what if they all had a common theme?  Maybe something like the Twilight
Zone movie, or modern interpretations of Fairy tales (South Park meets
Mother Goose...)

640 x 348 makes a really cool "wide screen" aspect ratio (That's what I'm
using for my short film)

It could be converted into DVD-compatable MPEG and distributed on DVD
instead of film or tape.

I've done a lot of composing and MIDI orchestration (Classical style, rock
style, "movie" style...) and I'd be glad to help out there.  Any POV tools
or extensions needed, I'm also a programmer by profession.

Mathias Broxvall <mbr### [at] swipnetseNOSPAM> wrote in article
<1d8### [at] dialup122-3-36swipnetse>...
> Hi everyone!
> 
> "Lance Birch" <:-)Lan### [at] tpgicomau> wrote:
> 
> > Also, we need to get some questions answered:
> > 
> > How long will it be?
> > What will it be about?
> > Who's making the models?
> > Who's doing the animating?
> > What program could we use to do the animating?
> 
> And:
> what version of povray to use? For some things it could definatly
> be worthwhile using some of the patches to povray. 
> 
> BTW, Maybe I could help with a newsserver. I'm not sure. Have to look
> into that one a little bit deeper. (The student computer club have lots
> of cpu servers online, to use just for fun).
> 
> / Mathias Broxvall
>

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I can also provide webspace for coordinating efforts.  I'm very new, and my
textures site doesn't look like it will work out, now that texlib is being
updated again (not much point nolw is there ;) ), so if there is genuine
interest let me know.


George Joseph Wyckoff (irc nick: KillFile)

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I wonder whether it is posible to export from the new version of the MAX
file format to POV-Ray (anyone made a converter for it yet)?  That way you
could make real characters using Character Studio, make the motion paths and
then export into POV-Ray.

The only problem is, people have to have 3D Studio MAX, and not very many
people do (price: gasp!).

I think that perhaps the idea of a magic eye thing woulsn't really work too
well, it would be too hard to co-ordinate.  The overall standard of the
product would drop because everyone would just throw stuff together.

I've seen there is a couple of people interested in music.  Obviously this
is a cool idea, once we know what we're doing, I'm sure there'll be people
(much more talented than I) to compose some music that will fit the
theme(s).

Back to the character think though, maybe we could make a kind of episode
(or movie) of figurines, like the one from the Flic elwood.flc by (wait a
second I'll check the official POV-Ray CD! Don't you love that pattern on
the CD?) Mathew Kaustinen.

I've made a similar model (it's nearly exactly the same because I have the
same model sitting on my desk in front of me right now!)

Just some thoughts anyway, keep 'em coming.

Oh, also PAL/NTSC/etc.  I don't think this'll be a problem if we render to a
high enough resolution to fit them all, the file size of all those frames
will be the problem (or maybe not...).


--
Lance Birch
Remove the smiley to e-mail.
http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/ambient/lance

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I'm thinking along your lines, Gary. Here's a few of my ideas to throw
into the brain storm:

* The first thing that came to my mind when this idea was brought up was
the graphics demos of a few years back (alah "Future Crew" -
http://www.hornet.org/info/fc/)
* Would 20 frames/sec be suitable?
* Each contributor would send in the source code + mpeg (+ images?) to
the central location so that the editor(s) can best "merge" each clip.
* A common theme between at least a few clips would make it easier for
the editors.
* I had an idea for a project of my own which involved flying around a
mountain, then diving into it - which would view black for a second -
then the next thing the viewer sees is a "door" opening - only when they
step out, they realise that they just came out of a coffin/sarcophagus
that is buried in an ancient tomb in the mountain. The next minute or so
would be going through tunnels Indiana Jones style. I could go on...

Hope this helps.


Gary Shannon wrote:

> Just some brainstorming...
>
> Realistic human characters are hard to get right.  That leaves toys,
> puppets, cartoon-style (maybe 2d from 3d methods), robots,... any
> others?
> (Pinoccio? Howdy Doody? Communist Robot Monsters from Outer Space?
> Something along the lines of the old Reboot TV show?)
>
> As for each animator doing a seperate piece and editing them all
> together,
> what if they all had a common theme?  Maybe something like the
> Twilight
> Zone movie, or modern interpretations of Fairy tales (South Park meets
>
> Mother Goose...)

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I'd like to participate, but I don't know where to sign on :)
  I don't know how to help, I have no disk space, I have no cpu-time (just
a poor 486DX2), I'm not a very good artist (you can see my work at
http://www.iki.fi/warp/pics/), but I still like to cooperate :)

--
                                                              - Warp. -

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Lance Birch <:-)Lan### [at] tpgicomau> wrote in message
<6j90qv$7ja$1@oz.aussie.org>...
>Back to the character think though, maybe we could make a kind of episode
>(or movie) of figurines, like the one from the Flic elwood.flc by (wait a
>second I'll check the official POV-Ray CD! Don't you love that pattern on
>the CD?) Mathew Kaustinen.
>
>I've made a similar model (it's nearly exactly the same because I have the
>same model sitting on my desk in front of me right now!)


I remember seeing small anims on TV a LONG time ago. And they used abstract
objects to project an idea. 2 of the best I liked were the large desk lamp,
small desk lamp and a ball. The large desk lamp was the mother/father, the
small desk lamp was the child playing with the ball. The other one was a
deck chair meeting a lake for the first time, putting a leg in and pulling
it out. Even these objects normally have no character, how they were used
created a whole new aspect to them. Meaning there could be storys about desk
objects etc. No need to use people. THE Attack of the Killer Pots.... 8-)


Fran.

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