On 2016-11-15 3:53 PM, [GDS|Entropy] wrote:
> ingo <ing### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
>> in news:582b029d$1@news.povray.org clipka wrote:
>>
>>>>> The problem with Blender is that it is so big [...]
>>
>>> Maybe someone should get involved with Blender UI development, and
>>> implement an alternative UI for noobs, exposing only a subset of the
>>> features, [...]
>>
>> one "GUI" for one task, blend out everything else. Push all GUI elements
>> to a second screen.
>>
>> Ingo
>>
>>
>
> The blender UI, rumor had it long ago, was intentionally (or
> retro-intentionally) obfuscated in order to fund the app by selling manuals
> and such. At least that was the rumor years ago, and after using it
> (well...trying to) I could totally buy that conjecture. ;D
>
> Or it could have been a consequence of design-by-committee. :p
>
> I have not attempted to do so in years though, and based on the
> conversation here perhaps it is time I did.
>
> My ideal UI would be like TrueSpace 3 + Bryce + Houdini.
> Hell, Houdini is frankly in my opinion perfect. I just cannot afford it,
> though there is a free version and a cheap version I like to own full
> versions, so Lightwave haha!
>
> Ian
>

Funny you should mention TrueSpace. I met up with the author and founder 
of the company - Roman Ormandy.  We discussed having me write a new 
rendering back-end for TrueSpace to allow for raytracing and other 
things.  We never started on the project but it was great meeting him. 
We both admired each others' work.

David Buck

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Am 15.11.2016 um 21:53 schrieb [GDS|Entropy]:

> The blender UI, rumor had it long ago, was intentionally (or
> retro-intentionally) obfuscated in order to fund the app by selling manuals
> and such. At least that was the rumor years ago, and after using it
> (well...trying to) I could totally buy that conjecture. ;D
> 
> Or it could have been a consequence of design-by-committee. :p

The software started out as an in-house tool. For me that's explanation
enough for a crappy UI.

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ingo <ing### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
> in
> news:135### [at] newspo
> vray.org [GDS|Entropy] wrote: 
> 
>> The blender UI, rumor had it long ago, was intentionally (or
>> retro-intentionally) obfuscated in order to fund the app by selling
>> manuals and such. 
> 
> 't was an inhouse tool before released to the public and at that time it 
> already had this "informal" GUI.
> 
> I liked sPatch but it needed way to many mouse clicks, I still use Silo 
> every now and then and loved 3D Studio R4. There also used to be an 
> excellent blob moddeler with blob-splines and stuff and Leveller for 
> terrains.
> 
> Ingo
> 

I actually still have a copy of Leveller and sPatch kicking around in one
of my raid stacks somewhere still. I keep *everything*. ;)

Ian

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David Buck <dav### [at] simberoncom> wrote:
> Funny you should mention TrueSpace. I met up with the author and founder 
> of the company - Roman Ormandy.  We discussed having me write a new 
> rendering back-end for TrueSpace to allow for raytracing and other 
> things.  We never started on the project but it was great meeting him. 
> We both admired each others' work.
> 
> David Buck
> 

Oh man that would have been awesome! TrueSpace with Pov Power...

This is yet another reason for me to never forgive Microsoft for what they
did to TrueSpace, which was an act of digital terrorism IMO. Like DAZ
essentially killing Carrara and Bryce. I'd rather they open source it than
let the product die.

Ian

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> Exactly; the same phenomena of "brain drain" is occurring in all fields.
> The reliance upon tools fundamentally weakens our ability to operate
> without them. There is nothing wrong with tools in and of themselves, and
> through their use we can perform metatasks quite quickly, but like Opioids
> used incorrectly, it can quickly grow into a dependence...and that is
> certainly not good.
>
> I look at the elementary school mathematics books from my grandfather, and
> compare those to what is being used here (USA) now and the difference is
> utterly stark.
>
> Whereas long ago Algebra was truly a fundamental part of all early
> education, now it is relegated to GT/AG classes and for the rest it is
> delayed until much later in the curricula of standard public education.
> This is sick. Why break the minds of an entire people?
>
> That among the whole flood of propaganda is why my son goes to a private
> school, does not watch TV, have a phone, use the internet, play video games
> or any other such nonsense.
>
> He does own a laptop, and I am teaching him how to program and construct
> various forms of robotic and autonomous systems, as he is very interested
> in that subject along with Chemistry. He is six, and I am quite sure that
> were he exposed to mass media he would not manifest nearly such affinity
> for science and technology.
>
> Now I'm really, *really* OT.
> Oh well. Free-for-all! Lol
>
> Ian

For what I try to do, 3D modelling, while it can construct models with perfect
exactness, has a huge limitation in that it relies so much on just the geometric
properties and mathematical relations of things not necessarily how they look.
Designs created by computer tend to come out predictably the same. Like the way
automobiles now look much alike. I love math and I love geometric shapes but as
a graphic artist concerned with pictures what POV makes possible is not just the
re-creation of solid objects but the ability to play with light itself and how
we really experience the visual world. Like in painting. As a true raytracer POV
is unlike almost any other digital canvas, though in render time we pay a high
price. Sorry about OT again but this has become a really great thread for those
who hope that POV stays alive.

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in news:web.582bae685604f23f89fafb20@news.povray.org Stephen Klebs
wrote: 

> [...] the ability to play with
> light itself and how we really experience the visual world. 

A GUI would probably have stopped at rgb 1, we can do rgb 10, or -3 we can 
reuse the radiosity data from one scene in an other. You can even aim at 
realism,

Ingo

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On 16-11-2016 1:14, [GDS|Entropy] wrote:
> ingo <ing### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
>> in
>> news:135### [at] newspo
>> vray.org [GDS|Entropy] wrote:
>>
>>> The blender UI, rumor had it long ago, was intentionally (or
>>> retro-intentionally) obfuscated in order to fund the app by selling
>>> manuals and such.
>>
>> 't was an inhouse tool before released to the public and at that time it
>> already had this "informal" GUI.
>>
>> I liked sPatch but it needed way to many mouse clicks, I still use Silo
>> every now and then and loved 3D Studio R4. There also used to be an
>> excellent blob moddeler with blob-splines and stuff and Leveller for
>> terrains.
>>
>> Ingo
>>
>
> I actually still have a copy of Leveller and sPatch kicking around in one
> of my raid stacks somewhere still. I keep *everything*. ;)
>

Why do I recognise that? :-) I have those too somewhere, but instead use 
GeoControl and Silo respectively. Wings3D once in a while. All with 
different GUI's but fairly easy to learn/remember.


-- 
Thomas

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On 15-11-2016 14:29, Stephen wrote:
> On 11/15/2016 9:36 AM, Mr wrote:
>> Stephen <mca### [at] aolcom> wrote:
>>> On 11/15/2016 8:01 AM, Thomas de Groot wrote:
>>>> Yes, I know, but I understand that this is embedded in Blender, isn't
>>>> it? So, is that not a problem for those not familiar with Blender?
>>>
>>>
>>> I would love to see what LanuHum's translator makes of that last
>>> sentence. ;-)
>>>
>>> The problem with Blender is that it is so big and it takes a lot of time
>>> to get to the point where you don't have to think about how to do
>>> things. But I can see that it will be worthwhile.
>>>
>>> And the Z-axis is up. :(
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>       Stephen
>>
>> I was thinking about the coordinates system this morning in the bus!
>> Telling
>> myself it would come up in the discussion:
>> Our exporter applies transformation matrices to Blender objects and
>> switches them to pov coordinates this makes it comfortable for the
>> user who
>> dosen't even have to think about xyz for simple scene drafting
>> visually and can
>> keep thinking in pov coordinates system once he exported the scene and
>> tweaks it
>> in a text file if necessary,
>>
>
> I have a question or two and a blend scene that does not export. How do
> you want them reported?
>
> If no one objects The Moray groups could be used. They were for Bishop3d.
>

That would be an excellent re-use. It would also stimulate the focus on 
Blender and its POV-Ray links and - who knows? - I shall possibly try to 
learn to use it seriously at last. ;-)

-- 
Thomas

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On 15-11-2016 21:10, [GDS|Entropy] wrote:
[snip]
> Since 2013 (for sci-fi) I have read the entire Foundation series, all of
> the Dune books, The Wheel of Time, The Dark Tower series ...nearly all of
> the works by the following (some specific listed series only): David Brin,
> Stephen Baxter, Terry Pratchett, Greg Egan, Peter f Hamilton, Ian Douglas,
> Arthur C Clarke, Gregory Benford, Alastair Reynolds, Vernor Vinge, Larry
> Niven, Robert Charles Wilson, Kevin J Anderson (specifically the Saga of
> the Seven Suns and its extension), Michael McCloskey, Jerry Pournelle, Iain
> M Banks, Dan Simmons, H.P. Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith, Willian Hope
> Hodgeson....I have a list of others I am burning through currently but I am
> not done with their works, so they don't go on this list yet.
>
[snip]

A kindred soul!

I have not read all of those but a fair amount of them over the years. 
Iain M. Banks has been a recent discovery of mine. A pity he passed 
away; I would have enjoyed more of his Culture novels.

-- 
Thomas

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[GDS|Entropy] <gdsHYPHENentropyAThotmaolDOTcom> wrote:
>
> My ideal UI would be like TrueSpace 3 + Bryce + Houdini.
> Hell, Houdini is frankly in my opinion perfect. I just cannot afford it,
> though there is a free version and a cheap version I like to own full
> versions, so Lightwave haha!
>
> Ian

You can not afford to Houdini?
I can afford to Houdini.
I do not like Windows. The interface Windows is much scarier than Blender GUI.
Some people can not afford the Windows!
Povray - cross-platform application and Blender - cross-platform application.
They can use a child from a poor family, if it finds a landfill discarded
computer. He installs Linux, Blender, Povray and may find its purpose
Do not forget about it!
Talented people are not all rich.

Post a reply to this message

On 11/12/2016 6:16 PM, Mike Horvath wrote:
> On 11/7/2016 6:51 PM, [GDS|Enropy] wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> As a result of a different discussion, I used Google Trends to track
>> searches for Pov since 2004.
>>
>> What I found is sad, but I think I found a ray of hope (d'oh..pun).
>>
>> Since 2004, searches for (pov ray and pov-ray) have practically dropped
>> orders of magnitude:
>> https://www.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=pov-ray,pov%20ray
>>
>> Searches for (povray) are worse:
>> https://www.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=pov-ray,pov%20ray,povray
>>
>> Here is povray vs blender and sketch up:
>>
https://www.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=pov-ray,blender%203d,pov%20ray,sketchup
>>
>>
>> I found that the interest in Pov seems highly localized, whereas blender
>> and sketchup are more widely spread.
>>
>> What is this hope of which I speak?
>>
>> Well, SketchUp is apparently MADLY popular, and there is a plugin called
>> SU2POV which allows interop.
>>
>> I didn't even know it existed until I specifically searched for a
>> Sketchup
>> plugin for Pov...so I think if that plugin could be improved, and
>> sketchup
>> users here and elsewhere did a bit of old-school mid 90's software
>> evangelism...Pov might just get a good influx of new blood.
>>
>> This would need to be done most especially by those speaking other
>> languages, due to the highly localized interest in Pov vs sketchup.
>>
>> Does anyone else have thoughts about this? Strategies?
>>
>> Ian
>>
>
> The main reasons I use POV-Ray are because it's free, and because I'm
> too lazy to learn Blender. My 2 cents.
>
> Mike

_AND_ I like to code.

Mike

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"Sherry K. Shaw" <ten### [at] aolcom> wrote:
> Thomas de Groot wrote:
>
> > Ah! There it is! This has been indeed one of the major complaints:
> > people (outside of POV-Ray) do not want to create using text editors
> > (any more).
>
> I Do Not Fingerpaint.
>
> I Do Not Use Software That Expects Me To Fingerpaint.
>
> I Am A Grownup.  I Can Read And Write.  I Can Do Math.
>
> Reading And Writing And Math Are Accurate.  Fingerpainting Is Guesswork.
>   I Like Accuracy.  I Do Not Like Guesswork.
>
> I Like Reading And Writing.  I Like Doing Math.  I Want To Read And
> Write And Do Math.  I Do Not Want To Fingerpaint.
>
> And that's why I do POV-Ray.*  :)

artists do love to fingerpaint, programmers don't (aside from wildguesses)

that's the main deal about Blender adoption vs povray decline

that said, Blender is scripted in python, it can be as accurate as you want.
Wanna scale an object to be 2x as width onscreen?  Type s2x or s3.14y or
whatever.  There are also metric tools.

like it or not, povray is an ancient codebase geared at tech-heads with some
artistic urges and little else.  As it is, we're lucky that there's an
integrated povray exporter in Blender.  though with cycles now being the default
renderer and a path-tracing at that, I wonder about its true utility...

the best thing about povray is the HOF.

just look how far in the past it became:  we are still using usenet to talk
about it.  how about some whatsapp? :p

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On Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:29:51 -0500, nemesis wrote:

> just look how far in the past it became:  we are still using usenet to
> talk about it.  how about some whatsapp? :p

Oh hell no. ;)

But maybe something like Discourse - though I'd prefer something that has 
the capability of an NNTP backend, but that's just me being an Internet 
luddite. ;)

Jim
-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> On 15-11-2016 21:10, [GDS|Entropy] wrote:
> A kindred soul!

:D
Pov folks are the best!

> I have not read all of those but a fair amount of them over the years. 
> Iain M. Banks has been a recent discovery of mine. A pity he passed 
> away; I would have enjoyed more of his Culture novels.
> 

Oh no! I didn't know he died. I kept checking his iBooks list... That
sucks. Maybe he left some notes for future books to his estate....<hopes>.
A colleague when I was in Kansas training for this one company turned me
onto Banks.

I was sad about Pratchett and Clarke too. Both wrote some GREAT books and
both also did some nice collaborations with Baxter. Clarke is how I FOUND
Baxter and Pratchett.

I remember when the movie Interstellar came out...whoever wrote that read
Baxters Ark (of the Flood/Ark duo). They ripped off SO much from it, it was
embarrassing. I think they must have been a Baxter fan, because there was a
LOT from his other books like nods to the Xelee sequence and more.

Greg Egan I spoke to a few weeks ago and he has some epics in the works. I
had to reverse engineer his email address based on knowing his country and
website...but it worked! Lol. I really enjoyed the Orthogonal series,
Schilds Ladder, Diaspora and more. I hope he extends the universes of those
books, and I told him as much. They are so rich and vibrant and believable,
it would be a shame to have only one book in them (Schilds ladder,
Diaspora). Orthogonal was really cool, with how he constructed the
operation of time and space...4d axis was actually navigably spatial AND
temporal...sick!

The guy actually builds reasonably self-consistent axiomatic foundations
(enter Godels incompleteness theorems lol) for the physics in his
universes....talk about hardcore!

Baxter also is pretty hard in certain respects, I loved his solar system
sized fractal shaped computer, and how he went into Godel a good
bit....then his representation of navigable Kerr metric...(Xelee) and his
sick wormhole artifacts from the Manifold trilogy...the universes man..

Ian

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LanuHum <Lan### [at] yandexru> wrote:
> [GDS|Entropy] <gdsHYPHENentropyAThotmaolDOTcom> wrote:
>> 
>> My ideal UI would be like TrueSpace 3 + Bryce + Houdini.
>> Hell, Houdini is frankly in my opinion perfect. I just cannot afford it,
>> though there is a free version and a cheap version I like to own full
>> versions, so Lightwave haha!
>> 
>> Ian
> 
> You can not afford to Houdini?
> I can afford to Houdini.
> I do not like Windows. The interface Windows is much scarier than Blender GUI.
> Some people can not afford the Windows!
> Povray - cross-platform application and Blender - cross-platform application.
> They can use a child from a poor family, if it finds a landfill discarded
> computer. He installs Linux, Blender, Povray and may find its purpose
> Do not forget about it!
> Talented people are not all rich.
> 

If you have the 8,000 usd for full Houdini then you are fortunate my
friend! Alas, The Minister of Finance (wife) would have none of that...lol

Ian

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nemesis <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:

Ah Nemesis! Good to see you still here after all these years. :)

> artists do love to fingerpaint, programmers don't (aside from wildguesses)
> 

We might write a program that finger-paints. :p

> that's the main deal about Blender adoption vs povray decline
> 
> that said, Blender is scripted in python, it can be as accurate as you want.
> Wanna scale an object to be 2x as width onscreen?  Type s2x or s3.14y or
> whatever.  There are also metric tools.

Thats what it came down to for me;  both LW and Blender use python, both
have deep UIs (though I find LW a bit more comprehensible) and both have a
big community.

So I went LW due to the UI, program and format support, etc..

> like it or not, povray is an ancient codebase geared at tech-heads with some
> artistic urges and little else.  As it is, we're lucky that there's an
> integrated povray exporter in Blender.  though with cycles now being the default
> renderer and a path-tracing at that, I wonder about its true utility...

Pov can be more though, this is what I want to see. O want it to become
faster, more easily supported by other software, and through this have its
user base grow once more.

> just look how far in the past it became:  we are still using usenet to talk
> about it.  how about some whatsapp? :p
> 

I like this forum because of the people. Many of you have been around for
decades, and it is nice to be able to come around and chat with all of the
folks I knew long ago.

Without the people, their friendliness, and their willingness to assist and
share, Pov would never have become what it is.

Half of what makes Pov great is this community in my opinion.

Cheers!

Ian

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Am 17.11.2016 um 01:03 schrieb [GDS|Entropy]:

> I remember when the movie Interstellar came out...whoever wrote that read
> Baxters Ark (of the Flood/Ark duo). They ripped off SO much from it, it was
> embarrassing. I think they must have been a Baxter fan, because there was a
> LOT from his other books like nods to the Xelee sequence and more.

Ripped off? I doubt it. Nods? Sounds more like it. I don't know Baxters
works, but I do know that the movie was teeming with references to "2001
- A Space Odyssey", and those were quite certainly winks and nods.

Post a reply to this message

clipka <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
> Am 17.11.2016 um 01:03 schrieb [GDS|Entropy]:
> 
>> I remember when the movie Interstellar came out...whoever wrote that read
>> Baxters Ark (of the Flood/Ark duo). They ripped off SO much from it, it was
>> embarrassing. I think they must have been a Baxter fan, because there was a
>> LOT from his other books like nods to the Xelee sequence and more.
> 
> Ripped off? I doubt it. Nods? Sounds more like it. I don't know Baxters
> works, but I do know that the movie was teeming with references to "2001
> - A Space Odyssey", and those were quite certainly winks and nods.
> 
> 

Yup I caught those too. Check out Flood/Ark, you will see what I mean...its
mostly with the technology and some plot points, but there is a clear link
of whatever form it may be. I honestly expected to see Baxter listed in the
credits somewhere. :)

Ian

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Hah!  My two kinds of life experience in re computers:

(1)  If it's a simple operation, and I'm trying to demonstrate it to a 
n00b, It Will Not Under Any Circumstances Work.  The internet will go 
down.  The thingy will overheat.  The doodad will explode.  The dog will 
eat their homework.  Something.

(2)  If some reasonably intelligent person is trying to explain to me 
the silly thing their computer is doing, once I walk into the room, it 
will immediately stop doing it.  It will be fine.  I just tell them that 
I have the magical power to heal computers.

--Sherry Shaw

-- 
#macro T(E,N)sphere{x,.4rotate z*E*60translate y*N pigment{wrinkles scale
.3}finish{ambient 1}}#end#local I=0;#while(I<5)T(I,1)T(1-I,-1)#local I=I+
1;#end camera{location-5*z}plane{z,37 pigment{granite color_map{[.7rgb 0]
[1rgb 1]}}finish{ambient 2}}//                                   TenMoons

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"LanuHum" <Lan### [at] yandexru> wrote:
> [GDS|Entropy] <gdsHYPHENentropyAThotmaolDOTcom> wrote:
> >
> > My ideal UI would be like TrueSpace 3 + Bryce + Houdini.
> > Hell, Houdini is frankly in my opinion perfect. I just cannot afford it,
> > though there is a free version and a cheap version I like to own full
> > versions, so Lightwave haha!
> >
> > Ian
>
> You can not afford to Houdini?
> I can afford to Houdini.
> I do not like Windows. The interface Windows is much scarier than Blender GUI.
> Some people can not afford the Windows!
> Povray - cross-platform application and Blender - cross-platform application.
> They can use a child from a poor family, if it finds a landfill discarded
> computer. He installs Linux, Blender, Povray and may find its purpose
> Do not forget about it!
> Talented people are not all rich.

Yes, a beautiful idea worth reminding ! thanks

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[GDS|Entropy] <gdsHYPHENentropyAThotmaolDOTcom> wrote:
> LanuHum <Lan### [at] yandexru> wrote:
> > [GDS|Entropy] <gdsHYPHENentropyAThotmaolDOTcom> wrote:
> >>
> >> My ideal UI would be like TrueSpace 3 + Bryce + Houdini.
> >> Hell, Houdini is frankly in my opinion perfect. I just cannot afford it,
> >> though there is a free version and a cheap version I like to own full
> >> versions, so Lightwave haha!
> >>
> >> Ian
> >
> > You can not afford to Houdini?
> > I can afford to Houdini.
> > I do not like Windows. The interface Windows is much scarier than Blender GUI.
> > Some people can not afford the Windows!
> > Povray - cross-platform application and Blender - cross-platform application.
> > They can use a child from a poor family, if it finds a landfill discarded
> > computer. He installs Linux, Blender, Povray and may find its purpose
> > Do not forget about it!
> > Talented people are not all rich.
> >
>
> If you have the 8,000 usd for full Houdini then you are fortunate my
> friend! Alas, The Minister of Finance (wife) would have none of that...lol
>
> Ian

I do not have a wife. I myself manage their finances. But I know how to write
scripts in Blender using python, so I will not spend money needlessly. :)

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I was thinking about this on my drive into work - and I think that a good way to
make POV-Ray more usable would to compare and contrast the way people use
hand-coding vs graphical modeling and WHY.

With graphical modeling, one can see a place or a thing, and move something to
that place, or move that thing to a new place or orientation.

I understand that there may be issues with "exactness", and there are certainly
ways to bridge the gap.  Snap & glue, alignment grids, etc.

from the other side, I think a lot of people have tried to achieve some of the
ease of use of modeling in hand-coding by writing macros that perform certain
tasks that a modeler does - and indeed, it's likely that very similar code
operates in the back end of a modeler.

Tasks such as
"center THIS object at THAT point"
"Align the left side of THIS with the right side of THAT"
"Align the edge of THIS with THAT guideline (axis)"

Although I haven't had the time to pursue the idea - I think that something
along the lines of VISIO's "smart-shapes" would be very useful.
It would be nice to have a pool of object metadata to query and modify that
could be accessible from inside the scene SDL.
This would likely be a list of axes, edges, endpoints, etc that would be
available to the scene writer so that other objects could be aligned with that
object, or the object could be rotated around that point, etc.

Again, there are likely macros and whatnot that already do much of this - but
the idea here is that every object is addressable, and has some basic list of
variables to work with, rather than having to hand code it all, every time.
I'm not sure how to implement this - it seems to me that the way POV SDL works,
the parser would have to scan through the SDL, populate the object attribute
lists, and then parse the scene again, only this time it would recognize and
interpret variable that were undefined during the first parsing.
I guess maybe it would work sort of like the 2-stage radiosity method.
Run a Stage1 scene through the parser and renderer, store the data,
and then use that stored data in a more complex scene.

Still just thinking out loud here, and brainstorming things that might be looked
at as options.

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[GDS|Entropy] <gdsHYPHENentropyAThotmaolDOTcom> wrote:
> nemesis <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>
> Ah Nemesis! Good to see you still here after all these years. :)

Good to see you too, INVALID ADDRESS! o.o

(it's how it's shown in the web interface, I've not used the NNTP software for
years.  I can see in the reply GDS/Entropy, which I kind of vaguely remember)


> I like this forum because of the people. Many of you have been around for
> decades, and it is nice to be able to come around and chat with all of the
> folks I knew long ago.

sure bet, sometimes I lurk in just to watch Stephen and Jim amusing interchanges
:)

I just wish povray just worked here at workplace.  Last time I installed, it had
a rough time with the last 3 or so iterations of Windows that left it useless...
how about a zip install?

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>SDL.

Might this be the "problem"? Programmers of GUI3DModellers don't see the SDL as the 
"API"?

Ingo

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On 11/17/2016 6:28 AM, Sherry K. Shaw wrote:
> Hah!  My two kinds of life experience in re computers:
>
> (1)  If it's a simple operation, and I'm trying to demonstrate it to a
> n00b, It Will Not Under Any Circumstances Work.  The internet will go
> down.  The thingy will overheat.  The doodad will explode.  The dog will
> eat their homework.  Something.
>

My best excuse was my hamster ate my homework and it was true. :)


> (2)  If some reasonably intelligent person is trying to explain to me
> the silly thing their computer is doing, once I walk into the room, it
> will immediately stop doing it.  It will be fine.  I just tell them that
> I have the magical power to heal computers.
>

A can of WD40 or compressed air is invaluable for the Ju Ju. ;)



-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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On 11/17/2016 4:50 PM, nemesis wrote:
> sure bet, sometimes I lurk in just to watch Stephen and Jim amusing interchanges
> :)

You are welcome to join in anytime and Jim will sell you a copy of the 
rules. ;-)


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 11/15/2016 2:32 PM, LanuHum wrote:
>> Stephen wrote:
>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>Well, I am going to spend some more time in Blender. To see what I can
>>> >>break.;-)
> You could ask me and Mr...
>
>
>
>
You might regret that kind offer. :)


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Am 17.11.2016 um 22:06 schrieb Stephen:

>> (2)  If some reasonably intelligent person is trying to explain to me
>> the silly thing their computer is doing, once I walk into the room, it
>> will immediately stop doing it.  It will be fine.  I just tell them that
>> I have the magical power to heal computers.
>>
> 
> A can of WD40 or compressed air is invaluable for the Ju Ju. ;)

If you're working on embedded systems, then compressed air can indeed
take you a long way in debugging ;)

I once spent hours beside a climate chamber to hunt for a bug that the
hardware guys couldn't figure out.

Post a reply to this message

clipka <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
> Am 17.11.2016 um 22:06 schrieb Stephen:
> 
>>> (2)  If some reasonably intelligent person is trying to explain to me
>>> the silly thing their computer is doing, once I walk into the room, it
>>> will immediately stop doing it.  It will be fine.  I just tell them that
>>> I have the magical power to heal computers.
>>> 
>> 
>> A can of WD40 or compressed air is invaluable for the Ju Ju. ;)
> 
> If you're working on embedded systems, then compressed air can indeed
> take you a long way in debugging ;)
> 
> I once spent hours beside a climate chamber to hunt for a bug that the
> hardware guys couldn't figure out.
> 
> 

I still shudder when recalling some work I did in the hardware abstraction
layer. Firmware and drive work isn't quite as fun as building higher level
stuff, for me at least, mostly because of debugging. 

You could sentence criminals to X years of HAL work and I think it might be
a very effective crime deterrent!

Ian

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Am 17.11.2016 um 23:58 schrieb [GDS|Entropy]:

> I still shudder when recalling some work I did in the hardware abstraction
> layer. Firmware and drive work isn't quite as fun as building higher level
> stuff, for me at least, mostly because of debugging. 

Yeah, I guess HAL development sucks. But once you dig down deep enough
that the scope becomes your best friend in debugging, things start to
get fun again ;)

Post a reply to this message

On 11/14/2016 5:31 PM, Stephen Klebs wrote:
>>
>> For such an effort to be noticed is hard because other programs do that all the
>> time, changing website theme (not by much) or even changing software name though
>> as a user, I wouldn't be against any of these... even switching back to an older
>> name and theme would be cool for the renderer's image, people forgot them
>> they're as brand new... Renaming pov DKB trace /PVRay/Persistence or anything
>> would look like it's really back for instance, any change is better than
>> asleep...  Anyway these are easy quick changes to decide after discussions
>>
>> The hardest part of the job is really being done by pov developers currently I
>> don't think more than what is being done is necessary, but it does take time!
>> almost done, the good thing is that changes are more apparent now that they
>> happen in the main trunk because developers of experimental versions like
>> Uberpov pay attention to synchronise with trunk regularly and port back their
>> stable changes as opposed to the pov vs megapov gap of older days.
>>
>> I agree with previous statements on one other thing that could currently be done
>> more, as said before:For end users to post more work in progress and finished
>> images outside of here!
>>
>> Blenderartists.org does have an "other software" section, CG society,
>> Behance... whatever works.
>
> It's a problem too that from the occasional coding I do the last thing I look
> forward to is playing around with interface buttons and sliders and trying to
> catch all the possible traps the end-user might fall in. UI is really a whole
> different skill.
>
>
>
>

A WYSIWYG point and click GUI would be a PITA to write. I think that 
would be expecting too much out of our devs.

Better interoperability with other tools and formats may be more 
realistic (though also kind of unlikely).

For instance I use a program called GeoGebra to sketch out a lot of 
things before I start doing them in POV-Ray. A way to export to POV-Ray 
would come in real handy.

Also, I think Inkscape can export to POV-Ray, but I have never used the 
feature.

Unfortunately, I am not a *real* programmer or math wiz, so I cannot help.

Mike

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in news:web.5829956d5604f2316086ed00@news.povray.org Mr wrote:


> By the way, about several renderers for one POV SDL, it's already
> available as well with UberPOV, trying its stochastic AA should be
> compulsory for all povers to see real life render times, promising to
> bring POV back in the race without as much noise as Cycles! can't
> wait for the Spectral revolution as well !

I was more thinking along the lines of OGL or WebGl, may be not even 
directly. Maybe "compiling" SDL to WebGL. Looking at for example 
http://doc.babylonjs.com/generals/File_Format_Map_(.babylon)#example it 
does not look impossible, although several features don't match, and 
you'ld be tied to another framework.
Iirc there is a way from Blender to the web too?

Ingo

Post a reply to this message

On 11/17/2016 01:06 PM, Stephen wrote:
> On 11/17/2016 6:28 AM, Sherry K. Shaw wrote:
>> Hah!  My two kinds of life experience in re computers:
>>
>> (1)  If it's a simple operation, and I'm trying to demonstrate it to a
>> n00b, It Will Not Under Any Circumstances Work.  The internet will go
>> down.  The thingy will overheat.  The doodad will explode.  The dog will
>> eat their homework.  Something.
>>
>
> My best excuse was my hamster ate my homework and it was true. :)
>
>
>> (2)  If some reasonably intelligent person is trying to explain to me
>> the silly thing their computer is doing, once I walk into the room, it
>> will immediately stop doing it.  It will be fine.  I just tell them that
>> I have the magical power to heal computers.
>>
>
> A can of WD40 or compressed air is invaluable for the Ju Ju. ;)
>

Reminds me of the advice I read somewhere...

If it moves and it shouldn't, use duct tape.
if it doesn't move and it should, use WD-40.

-- 
      -=- Larry -=-

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On 16-11-2016 20:29, nemesis wrote:

> just look how far in the past it became:  we are still using usenet to talk
> about it.  how about some whatsapp? :p
>

I would truly be lost.

Long time no see! Good to have you back!

-- 
Thomas

Post a reply to this message

ingo <ing### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
> in news:web.5829956d5604f2316086ed00@news.povray.org Mr wrote:
>
>
> > By the way, about several renderers for one POV SDL, it's already
> > available as well with UberPOV, trying its stochastic AA should be
> > compulsory for all povers to see real life render times, promising to
> > bring POV back in the race without as much noise as Cycles! can't
> > wait for the Spectral revolution as well !
>
> I was more thinking along the lines of OGL or WebGl, may be not even
> directly. Maybe "compiling" SDL to WebGL. Looking at for example
> http://doc.babylonjs.com/generals/File_Format_Map_(.babylon)#example it
> does not look impossible, although several features don't match, and
> you'ld be tied to another framework.
> Iirc there is a way from Blender to the web too?
>
> Ingo

Yes there are. POV is a knife, uberpov a sharper one... Blender is like a whole
kitchen with an escalator down the window to vegetables in the garden. :-P

Post a reply to this message

Am 18.11.2016 um 08:06 schrieb Larry Hudson:

> Reminds me of the advice I read somewhere...
> 
> If it moves and it shouldn't, use duct tape.
> if it doesn't move and it should, use WD-40.

I heard the same about Loctite and WD-40, though that was specifically
about screws.

Post a reply to this message

Stephen <mca### [at] aolcom> wrote:
> On 11/15/2016 2:32 PM, LanuHum wrote:
> >> Stephen wrote:
> >> >
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Well, I am going to spend some more time in Blender. To see what I can
> >>> >>break.;-)
> > You could ask me and Mr...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> You might regret that kind offer. :)
>
>
> --
>
> Regards
>      Stephen

I help others learn Blender.
I can try to help you.

Post a reply to this message

On 11/18/2016 11:13 AM, Mr wrote:
> ingo <ing### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
>> in news:web.5829956d5604f2316086ed00@news.povray.org Mr wrote:
>>
>>
>>> By the way, about several renderers for one POV SDL, it's already
>>> available as well with UberPOV, trying its stochastic AA should be
>>> compulsory for all povers to see real life render times, promising to
>>> bring POV back in the race without as much noise as Cycles! can't
>>> wait for the Spectral revolution as well !
>>
>> I was more thinking along the lines of OGL or WebGl, may be not even
>> directly. Maybe "compiling" SDL to WebGL. Looking at for example
>> http://doc.babylonjs.com/generals/File_Format_Map_(.babylon)#example it
>> does not look impossible, although several features don't match, and
>> you'ld be tied to another framework.
>> Iirc there is a way from Blender to the web too?
>>
>> Ingo
>
> Yes there are. POV is a knife, uberpov a sharper one... Blender is like a whole
> kitchen with an escalator down the window to vegetables in the garden. :-P
>
>
>

And a blender. ;)


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 11/18/2016 12:58 PM, clipka wrote:
> Am 18.11.2016 um 08:06 schrieb Larry Hudson:
>
>> Reminds me of the advice I read somewhere...
>>
>> If it moves and it shouldn't, use duct tape.
>> if it doesn't move and it should, use WD-40.
>
> I heard the same about Loctite and WD-40, though that was specifically
> about screws.
>

It sounds like a navy saying to me. :)

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Stephen <mca### [at] aolcom> wrote:
> On 11/17/2016 4:50 PM, nemesis wrote:
> > sure bet, sometimes I lurk in just to watch Stephen and Jim amusing interchanges
> > :)
>
> You are welcome to join in anytime and Jim will sell you a copy of the
> rules. ;-)

too many anglophone puns for me to bear, I'm afraid :)

Post a reply to this message

Mike Horvath <mik### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> Also, I think Inkscape can export to POV-Ray, but I have never used the
> feature.

it used to export vector paths into povray lathe objects, yes.  I used it once,
was pretty alright.

I use Blender as a hobbyist and since then have had little interest into
scripting.  Though for purely abstract math-like CG, povray has no competition.
The kind of incredible images you'd get out of competitions such as povray short
code contest.  we need more of that...

Post a reply to this message

On 11/18/2016 4:17 PM, nemesis wrote:
> Stephen <mca### [at] aolcom> wrote:
>> On 11/17/2016 4:50 PM, nemesis wrote:
>>> sure bet, sometimes I lurk in just to watch Stephen and Jim amusing interchanges
>>> :)
>>
>> You are welcome to join in anytime and Jim will sell you a copy of the
>> rules. ;-)
>
> too many anglophone puns for me to bear, I'm afraid :)
>
>
>
But that's the game. ;)

And now we have two letters in our mailbag. :)

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 11/17/2016 12:14 AM, [GDS|Entropy] wrote:
>> just look how far in the past it became:  we are still using usenet to talk
>> >about it.  how about some whatsapp? :p
>> >
> I like this forum because of the people. Many of you have been around for
> decades, and it is nice to be able to come around and chat with all of the
> folks I knew long ago.
>

So do I. I don't need a render as good as PovRay but I have stuck with 
it because I like the people on the newsgroups.

> Without the people, their friendliness, and their willingness to assist and
> share, Pov would never have become what it is.
>

Can you remember when it was all, RTFM?
I am glad those days are gone.


> Half of what makes Pov great is this community in my opinion.

The other half is the great images some folk can make.

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Stephen <mca### [at] aolcom> wrote:
> On 11/17/2016 12:14 AM, [GDS|Entropy] wrote:
> >> just look how far in the past it became:  we are still using usenet to talk
> >> >about it.  how about some whatsapp? :p
> >> >
> > I like this forum because of the people. Many of you have been around for
> > decades, and it is nice to be able to come around and chat with all of the
> > folks I knew long ago.
> >
>
> So do I. I don't need a render as good as PovRay but I have stuck with
> it because I like the people on the newsgroups.
>
> > Without the people, their friendliness, and their willingness to assist and
> > share, Pov would never have become what it is.
> >
>
> Can you remember when it was all, RTFM?
> I am glad those days are gone.
>
>
> > Half of what makes Pov great is this community in my opinion.
>
> The other half is the great images some folk can make.
>
> --
>
> Regards
>      Stephen


Indeed! I would never have launched in export scripting without the safety net
and responsiveness these newsgroups gave me ! Thanks

Post a reply to this message

Am 2016-11-17 17:23, also sprach clipka:

> I once spent hours beside a climate chamber to hunt for a bug that the
> hardware guys couldn't figure out.
>

I got heat because a custom Altera part I was driving failed with my 
software. The part worked just fine with the old software (which was 
magnitudes too slow for which it was thrown out).  Clearly my problem. 
After a month of begging, I finally got an afternoon with the hardware 
guy, who took 10 minutes to figure out that the output of an 8 input 
nand gate was ringing into an adjacent line causing false triggers 
elsewhere.  Didn't show up when the part was running at 10% capacity.

And then, and *then*, I got big heat because the i82557 SIO chip would 
start sending 0's. No errors, hardware checksum was ok. This was my 
problem too.  Years later, I found out that shiny new Linux 1.0.3 won't 
support network cards with this chip (3C507) because of this known problem.
Thanks for not mentioning that when you sold us on the buggy chip, intel.

-- 
dik

Post a reply to this message

Am 2016-11-14 09:22, also sprach Stephen Klebs:
> POV-Ray is still around, a pioneer in open
> source,

Once upon a time, at a show (Hamburg?), Richard Stallman, surrounded by 
his disciples, walked by the POV-Ray display and gave it a nice Roman 
Thumbs Down, because it wasn't GPL'd.
-- 
dik

Post a reply to this message

Am 18.12.2016 um 13:13 schrieb dick balaska:
> Am 2016-11-17 17:23, also sprach clipka:
> 
>> I once spent hours beside a climate chamber to hunt for a bug that the
>> hardware guys couldn't figure out.
>>
> 
> I got heat because a custom Altera part I was driving failed with my
> software. The part worked just fine with the old software (which was
> magnitudes too slow for which it was thrown out).  Clearly my problem.
> After a month of begging, I finally got an afternoon with the hardware
> guy, who took 10 minutes to figure out that the output of an 8 input
> nand gate was ringing into an adjacent line causing false triggers
> elsewhere.  Didn't show up when the part was running at 10% capacity.

Ah, that sounds like fun!

> And then, and *then*, I got big heat because the i82557 SIO chip would
> start sending 0's. No errors, hardware checksum was ok. This was my
> problem too.  Years later, I found out that shiny new Linux 1.0.3 won't
> support network cards with this chip (3C507) because of this known problem.
> Thanks for not mentioning that when you sold us on the buggy chip, intel.

That reminds me of the fun the hardware guys had when it turned out that
the designated MCU for the product didn't like to be started up too
shortly after losing power.

And I mean, it *really* didn't like that. Not in an "I'll throw a
tantrum" way, nor the "I'll go sulking in the corner for a while" kind.

No, I mean the "over my dead body" sort of dislike.

Literally.

Not good in a car, where engine start can occasionally cause power to
cut out on less-important pieces of equipment like ours.

Since a revised MCU was nowhere to be seen, and turning to a different
product was a no-go that late in the development cycle, hardware guys
had to add an extra circuit to the board that would absolutely
positively prevent the device from turning back on for a while after
powerdown.

Which of course would haunt us later down the line, when the car
manufacturer (who had approved the stopgap measure) complained that the
device didn't power up fast enough in some new test scenarios.

I miss that kind of bullcrap. Really.

Post a reply to this message

On 12/18/2016 12:13 PM, dick balaska wrote:
> I finally got an afternoon with the hardware guy, who took 10 minutes to
> figure out that

And he is probably saying that it took ages to get to talk to a S/ware guy.
Teamwork Rulz!

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 12/18/2016 07:36 AM, dick balaska wrote:
> Am 2016-11-14 09:22, also sprach Stephen Klebs:
>> POV-Ray is still around, a pioneer in open
>> source,
>
> Once upon a time, at a show (Hamburg?), Richard Stallman, surrounded by
> his disciples, walked by the POV-Ray display and gave it a nice Roman
> Thumbs Down, because it wasn't GPL'd.

:-) I'd not heard that story.

Bill P.

Post a reply to this message

On 12/18/2016 7:36 AM, dick balaska wrote:
> Am 2016-11-14 09:22, also sprach Stephen Klebs:
>> POV-Ray is still around, a pioneer in open
>> source,
>
> Once upon a time, at a show (Hamburg?), Richard Stallman, surrounded by
> his disciples, walked by the POV-Ray display and gave it a nice Roman
> Thumbs Down, because it wasn't GPL'd.

LOL

Post a reply to this message