Hello

Disclaimer: this is not an official statement. An official annoucement from 
the POVCOMP organisers will follow (some details are still being worked on) 
and participants will be emailed privately.

There are 56 entries. Among these, there are exceptional images, that would 
be worthy of the main prizes. People have been working hard, and these 
images are a good testimony of what can be achieved with POV-Ray.

However, these exceptional images are too few. The competition was all about 
getting the best out of POV-Ray, and while most entries are very good, they 
are on the whole not up to the standard that can be observed in current 3D 
contests. It's not an easy thing to say and we understand that this may be 
offending to some. Be sure that we fully realise the amount of work that was 
put in all entries: it's just that the bar has been raised very high in 3D 
these days. The feedback on the new hall of fame was extremely positive: 
this newfound reputation should not be squandered. We all know that POV-Ray 
is an exceptional piece of software, so we need lots of exceptional artworks 
to prove it.

One major reason for the lack of exceptional pieces may have been that the 
time period of two and a half months was too short. POVCOMP is of an order 
of magnitude harder than the IRTC, and the organisers underestimated the 
time needed to create this sort of work without giving up on real life. 
People couldn't find the time to complete their entries, and among those 
submitted, we feel that many can be improved.

Accordingly, it has been decided to postpone the deadline until January 31, 
2005. That's almost 3 additional months for people to resume or complete 
their work, or submit new ones.
In a nutshell:
- Those of you who have submitted an image will be given the opportunity to 
unsubmit it and resume work.
- Those of you who did not submit due to lack of time are encouraged to 
resume work on their creation.
- For those who are happy with what they have submitted already, their image 
will remain in its 'submitted' state. Of course, you can always create a new 
work.

The precise procedures to do so will be explained later.

Again, this was not an easy decision to take. I'm painfully aware of how 
difficult this must be for the POVCOMP participants. We hope, however, that 
these 3 extra months will result in many exceptional pictures.

Gilles Tran

-- 
**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

First of all, thank you for finally telling us what is going on.

Secondly, I am very disappointed.  I worked very hard on my image and
because of the confusion on the deadline, wound up losing quite a few hours
that I would have used to continue improving it.  I've been anxiously
awaiting an opportunity to see all the work submitted and making my own
estimations as to how well my effort stacked up against the really great
artists out there.  Being told that the sum of the efforts that were
submitted was not good enough for you to award a prize is a slap in the
face to all of us.  This doesn't encourage me to provide you with a better
work, this makes me reluctant to continue to participate.

Personally, I feel that you should award the prizes and organize a new
contest if you feel that you didn't get what you wanted from this one.  For
your next iteration, I suggest that you make some significant modifications
to the rules.  First and foremost, your requirement that we submit images
without a copyright notice makes me acutely uncomfortable.  Though I don't
ascribe any such motive to you, such a requirement makes it easy to just
take our images and use them without even acknowledging the artist.  At the
very least, we should be given an explanation as to why you don't want a
copyright notice on the image.

Secondly, either you need to get more people involved in moderating the
boards or you need to provide a forum for unmoderated discussion.  It often
takes a day or more for my posts on this board to appear.  Free discussion
would really help this competition.  I also suggest you set up a mailing
list like the one that exists for the IRTC.  Again it will help foster a
sense of community among the participating artists and perhaps encourage
people to get their work finished on time.

Finally, you need to provide more feedback to the artists during the final
days of the competition.  The reminder email was a nice touch, but it would
be best to have a count-down clock so that the time remaining is clear to
everyone.

I'm sure other artists will have other comments that are perhaps better
thought out then mine.

Gilles Tran wrote:

> There are 56 entries. Among these, there are exceptional images, that
would
> be worthy of the main prizes.

And their creators now have no laurels to rest on.

You just told us that _all_ of us have to get off our lazy butts and
re-compete, not just those of us who appeared to run out of time.

At my weekly rates, I'm about to put enough work into this to have bought
_another_ grand prize, off the shelf! ;-)

-- 
  Phlip
  http://industrialxp.org/community/bin/view/Main/TestFirstUserInterfaces

rben wrote:

> First and foremost, your requirement that we submit images
> without a copyright notice makes me acutely uncomfortable.  Though I don't
> ascribe any such motive to you, such a requirement makes it easy to just
> take our images and use them without even acknowledging the artist.  At
the
> very least, we should be given an explanation as to why you don't want a
> copyright notice on the image.

To preserve anonymity, so judges wouldn't recognize artists.

Note that all art is copy-wrought as it is created. "No copyright notice" is
not the same as "no copyright".

The (c) notice is just a tactic.

-- 
  Phlip
  http://industrialxp.org/community/bin/view/Main/TestFirstUserInterfaces

"rben" <ray### [at] comcastnet> a écrit dans le message de news: 
web.417aa863b45fa19e497bbfc0@news.povray.org...
> First of all, thank you for finally telling us what is going on.

We certainly owed it to you.

> Being told that the sum of the efforts that were
> submitted was not good enough for you to award a prize is a slap in the
> face to all of us.

As I said, this wasn't an easy decision. Hey, I'd be awfully disappointed 
myself if I were participating... But then, there were 25 prizes to 
distribute to 56 images. We'd have to award prizes to images that weren't 
just special enough, and that would have been, well, wrong. There's more at 
stake than it seems in fact. POV-Ray needs (and deserves) more public 
recognition than it has presently, and a high profile competition like the 
POVCOMP is the right tool for that, but it also means that the outcome of 
this competition has to be high profile too, otherwise we're not going to 
convince anyone that POV-Ray is the great tool it is.

> This doesn't encourage me to provide you with a better
> work, this makes me reluctant to continue to participate.

Since you said that you missed a few hours to complete your entry I warmly 
encourage you get over the initial disappointment and to continue to 
participate.

> Personally, I feel that you should award the prizes and organize a new
> contest if you feel that you didn't get what you wanted from this one.

To organise a new contest, to find paying sponsors and willing participants, 
it is mandatory that the first one is a success, and that the results are 
impressive enough.

> First and foremost, your requirement that we submit images
> without a copyright notice makes me acutely uncomfortable.

You are actually invited to provide one:
 "4.g. You can optionally submit a PNG image with alpha channel - of the 
same size as the main image - which contains a signature that will be 
applied to the image before it is published on the website. (...)  If you do 
not provide such a signature file, the competition organisers will, if you 
request, apply an automated copyright notice for you, using your real name 
or nickname as supplied in registration. "

The reason why the signature/copyright has to be separate is given in the 
guidelines:
"Judging will be done 'blind' meaning the competition organisers will not 
supply the name of the entrant with the entry. Each entry will have a unique 
ID which is what the judges refer to them by. All submitted files are 
renamed based on this ID. The descriptions and other texts supplied with 
your submission should not reveal your identity. "

> Secondly, either you need to get more people involved in moderating the
> boards or you need to provide a forum for unmoderated discussion.  It 
> often
> takes a day or more for my posts on this board to appear.

There is clearly something wrong on your end (proxy, cache issue...). 
Discussions are not moderated and posts appear immediately.

> The reminder email was a nice touch, but it would
> be best to have a count-down clock so that the time remaining is clear to
> everyone.

This is in the works (AFAIK).

Thanks for your input !

Gilles


-- 
**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

Thanks for the update Gilles. I am sorry to hear so few images were
submitted. Time was an issue for me and I did not enter images despite
having that intent.  Those who worked really hard to meet the deadline are
going to be frustrated by this turn and I can understand.

While it is contrary to the way normal competitions are run, I wonder if it
might not help keep everyone motivated if the images submitted to the
competition were visible immediately on submission and that any image could
be replaced with an improved version some number of times prior to the
deadline. I am thinking of  a running competition where entries evolve to a
high level.

I started images, but life didn't cooperate to give me the time to get any
of them to the level I thought would be competitive.  It is hard to stay
motivated when you cannot see how far behind you are and can only imagine
how your images look in comparison.

An analogy. We are all choosing to run marathons when we take on a image. It
is hard to keep running hard in a competitive race when you have no idea
where you stand - especially once life gets in the way a few times.

Bill P.

"Gilles Tran" <gitran_nospam_@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:417a9f5a$1@news.povray.org...
> Hello
>
> Disclaimer: this is not an official statement. An official annoucement
from
> the POVCOMP organisers will follow (some details are still being worked
on)
> and participants will be emailed privately.
>
> There are 56 entries. Among these, there are exceptional images, that
would
> be worthy of the main prizes. People have been working hard, and these
> images are a good testimony of what can be achieved with POV-Ray.
>
> However, these exceptional images are too few. The competition was all
about
> getting the best out of POV-Ray, and while most entries are very good,
they
> are on the whole not up to the standard that can be observed in current 3D
> contests. It's not an easy thing to say and we understand that this may be
> offending to some. Be sure that we fully realise the amount of work that
was
> put in all entries: it's just that the bar has been raised very high in 3D
> these days. The feedback on the new hall of fame was extremely positive:
> this newfound reputation should not be squandered. We all know that
POV-Ray
> is an exceptional piece of software, so we need lots of exceptional
artworks
> to prove it.
>
> One major reason for the lack of exceptional pieces may have been that the
> time period of two and a half months was too short. POVCOMP is of an order
> of magnitude harder than the IRTC, and the organisers underestimated the
> time needed to create this sort of work without giving up on real life.
> People couldn't find the time to complete their entries, and among those
> submitted, we feel that many can be improved.
>
> Accordingly, it has been decided to postpone the deadline until January
31,
> 2005. That's almost 3 additional months for people to resume or complete
> their work, or submit new ones.
> In a nutshell:
> - Those of you who have submitted an image will be given the opportunity
to
> unsubmit it and resume work.
> - Those of you who did not submit due to lack of time are encouraged to
> resume work on their creation.
> - For those who are happy with what they have submitted already, their
image
> will remain in its 'submitted' state. Of course, you can always create a
new
> work.
>
> The precise procedures to do so will be explained later.
>
> Again, this was not an easy decision to take. I'm painfully aware of how
> difficult this must be for the POVCOMP participants. We hope, however,
that
> these 3 extra months will result in many exceptional pictures.
>
> Gilles Tran
>
> -- 
> **********************
> http://www.oyonale.com
> **********************
> - Graphic experiments
> - POV-Ray and Poser computer images
> - Posters
>
>

Now what do I do ? Do I try to improve my current submission that wasn't good enough
for your initial contest and hope that it might be good enough for the next round 
or do I start over and hope I don't waste my time and effort like I did for the first
round ? 

Chris Holtorf

"William Pokorny" <pok### [at] attglobalnet> a écrit dans le message de news: 
417abc3f$1@news.povray.org...

> While it is contrary to the way normal competitions are run, I wonder if 
> it
> might not help keep everyone motivated if the images submitted to the
> competition were visible immediately on submission and that any image 
> could
> be replaced with an improved version some number of times prior to the
> deadline. I am thinking of  a running competition where entries evolve to 
> a
> high level.

Some 3D competitions run like this, and allow people to show their entries 
beforehand. People can comment on the WIPs too. In retrospect, I'm starting 
to think that this would have been a better way (though there may be some 
issues with this too). I am personally in favour to show the current images 
at this stage, but it's not a simple decision as the original rules clearly 
said that the judging was "blind".  This may or may not change and no 
decision has been taken.

> An analogy. We are all choosing to run marathons when we take on a image. 
> It
> is hard to keep running hard in a competitive race when you have no idea
> where you stand - especially once life gets in the way a few times.

Well, I'm not completely buying this. In 3D, the competition is all around 
us, in the movies, in the advertising, in the galleries of every 3D software 
out there... I really don't think people should strive to be better than the 
other POV-Ray user. In any case, I never did that when I competed in the 
IRTC. My goal was always to emulate the best possible stuff I had seen, and 
for this there were enough available material from the last 25000 years of 
painting... In any case, I will (possibly) prepare a short text addressing 
some of the most obvious shortcomings I've seen in POV-Ray images (POVCOMP 
or elsewhere).

G.


-- 
**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

Wow.  That sure clears-up a lot of things...  Not an easy decision, indeed.

I'm somewhat surprised that there were so few participants.  It does make me 
think that many people didn't feel they had enough time.  However, now we're 
in a position where (as Bill P. mentioned) we've all run a marathon and now 
we're told that we need to run an extra 30 miles.  It's good news for my 
scene that I created, but on a personal level, such news is a little 
unsettling.  I hope this isn't the case (sincerely, I do), but I have to 
wonder if some people may give-up at this point.  I really hope that this 
encourages more participants, and not less.  At this point, even if someone 
was just now starting their image, they would still have 3 months, which 
isn't bad.

I'm planning to look on the bright side.  There were quite a few things that 
I wanted to do, but simply ran out of time.  I expected that.  I realized 
the time-constraints.  I'm quite hopeful that I can make a number of 
improvements to what I've already put together, including certain technical 
problems that I didn't notice until too late.

Once again, good luck to all!  And may "all" include more of you!

-- 
Jeremy
www.beantoad.com

"Gilles Tran" <gitran_nospam_@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message 
news:417ac4d0@news.povray.org...
> "William Pokorny" <pok### [at] attglobalnet> a écrit dans le message de news: 
> 417abc3f$1@news.povray.org...
>
>> An analogy. We are all choosing to run marathons when we take on a image. 
>> It
>> is hard to keep running hard in a competitive race when you have no idea
>> where you stand - especially once life gets in the way a few times.
>
> Well, I'm not completely buying this. In 3D, the competition is all around 
> us, in the movies, in the advertising, in the galleries of every 3D 
> software out there... I really don't think people should strive to be 
> better than the other POV-Ray user. In any case, I never did that when I 
> competed in the IRTC. My goal was always to emulate the best possible 
> stuff I had seen, and for this there were enough available material from 
> the last 25000 years of painting...

"Time-trial" comes to my mind.  You do the best that you can.  You hope for 
the best.  You prepare for the worst.  But you never know how well you 
compare until it's all over.  Not all time-trials work that way, but the 
analogy works (for me anyway).

-- 
Jeremy
www.beantoad.com

"Chris Holtorf" <lho### [at] nwlinkcom> a écrit dans le message de news: 
1103_1098564188@news.povray.org...
>   Now what do I do ? Do I try to improve my current submission that wasn't 
> good enough for your initial contest and hope that it might be good enough 
> for the next round
> or do I start over and hope I don't waste my time and effort like I did 
> for the first round ?

Note that this is not a second round: we just moved the deadline (a long way 
for sure). All the entries, including yours, remain 100% valuable. They all 
remain in the race. All the work you put in your entry hasn't been wasted at 
all. The final deadline will be final.

However, the delay will give you the chance to have a second look at your 
entry, to show it to other people, to compare it to the best stuff you can 
see in the HOF or other 3D galleries and see if you can make it better. 
Perhaps you won't find it necessary, perhaps you will.  That's really up to 
you, but, as understandably frustrating and unwelcome as it is, the 
postponement is there to give people the (rather unique) opportunity, and 
time, to do that.
We really want the best from you all, and we want all these pictures to 
really shine, so make the best of these 3 months!

G.


-- 
**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

"Chris Holtorf" <lho### [at] nwlinkcom> wrote in message 
news:1103_1098564188@news.povray.org...
>   Now what do I do ? Do I try to improve my current submission that wasn't 
> good enough for your initial contest and hope that it might be good enough 
> for the next round
> or do I start over and hope I don't waste my time and effort like I did 
> for the first round ?
>

How do you know that your image was not one of the exceptional?

For me, I did the best I could with the time allotted.  There are many 
people here with skills that are far better than mine.  But I work with what 
I know, and with what time and hardware permit.  If I didn't think I had a 
chance, I would not have entered the competition to begin with.

You also have to realize that this competition is not as much about "us" as 
it is about "POV-Ray."  These prizes are not simply being given-out because 
of someone's generosity.  While some generosity has come into play, the 
prizes are also an advertisement for the sponsors.  People don't like to 
talk about this, but it's a reality.  The sponsors expect something in 
return, and if we don't provide that to them (in the form of exceptional 
images), they will be less likely to do this again.  I hope I don't get 
flamed for being overly frank.

Chris Cason, Gilles, Thorsten, and others have been very generous with their 
time on this, however, so please be kind to the organizers.  I would also 
like to ask everyone to try to be more positive, but all I can do is ask.

-- 
Jeremy
www.beantoad.com

In article <417ac973@news.povray.org> , "Gilles Tran" 
<gitran_nospam_@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

> However, the delay will give you the chance to have a second look at your
> entry

Not to mention, also to create additional entries!  After all, everybody is
allowed to submit up to three.  So if there is time after polishing the
first entry, working on another one will certainly improve chances to win.

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

In article <417ac708$3@news.povray.org> , "Jeremy M. Praay" 
<sla### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:

> "Time-trial" comes to my mind.  You do the best that you can.  You hope for
> the best.  You prepare for the worst.  But you never know how well you
> compare until it's all over.  Not all time-trials work that way, but the
> analogy works (for me anyway).

Yes, and the IRTC makes this easier as it allows discussion of works in
progress.  As such, to ease the rule that images may not be discussed is
certainly something we are considering.  Of course, we do not take changing
the rules lightly at all and consequently to decide to change this one is a
very difficult decision.

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

In article <417aca28$1@news.povray.org> , "Jeremy M. Praay" 
<sla### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:

> You also have to realize that this competition is not as much about "us" as
> it is about "POV-Ray."  These prizes are not simply being given-out because
> of someone's generosity.  While some generosity has come into play, the
> prizes are also an advertisement for the sponsors.  People don't like to
> talk about this, but it's a reality.  The sponsors expect something in
> return, and if we don't provide that to them (in the form of exceptional
> images), they will be less likely to do this again.  I hope I don't get
> flamed for being overly frank.

This very well describes the situation.  Chris Cason certainly spend a lot
of time getting sponsor on board.  The money for the prices did indeed not
grow on trees, and we all committed a lot of time into making the
competition a reality.  Of course, we are all amateurs and some things could
certainly have run more smoothly :-)

> Chris Cason, Gilles, Thorsten, and others have been very generous with their
> time on this, however, so please be kind to the organizers.  I would also
> like to ask everyone to try to be more positive, but all I can do is ask.

Thank you!

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

"Jeremy M. Praay" <sla### [at] hotmailcom> a écrit dans le message de news: 
417ac708$1@news.povray.org...

> I'm planning to look on the bright side.  There were quite a few things 
> that I wanted to do, but simply ran out of time.  I expected that.  I 
> realized the time-constraints.  I'm quite hopeful that I can make a number 
> of improvements to what I've already put together, including certain 
> technical problems that I didn't notice until too late.

All I can say at this point is: you've got 3 months. Take your time. I know 
it looks like I'm trying hard to spin the postponement in a positive way ;) 
but I've noticed many times that waiting a little before declaring an image 
"finished" is often very beneficial. After working hard on something, we 
tend to focus on the small details while the big picture (no puns intended) 
gets blurry. And some stuff, well, we just can't find the courage to change 
it on the spot.

That's why I never upload images immediately at Zazzle or on my website. I 
put them through a mandatory waiting period, until I can have a fresh look 
at them, which sometimes results in fixing a lot of problems, many of them 
blindingly obvious after a couple of weeks (and the fixing is also less 
painful then, if not pleasant).

G.


-- 
**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

"Jeremy M. Praay" <sla### [at] hotmailcom> a écrit dans le message de news: 
417aca28$1@news.povray.org...
> The sponsors expect something in return, and if we don't provide that to 
> them (in the form of exceptional images), they will be less likely to do 
> this again.  I hope I don't get flamed for being overly frank.

Many thanks Jeremy!

You nailed it perfectly. I wouldn't say that it's only a sponsor problem 
(though we have seen how sponsors progressively lost interest in the IRTC), 
but in more general terms, it's about how POV-Ray is perceived by other 
people, in the 3D community or elsewhere. Events like POVCOMP can play a 
significant role in that perception, and are extremely hard to come by, so 
we'd rather not miss such an opportunity.

G.

-- 
**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

Maybe the prizes were too big, and frightened some of us who thought that it
would be a extremely high-level competition.

And the time wasn't the best to choose: i didn't have much time for my
submission since i was starting the year. If i remember well, the
competition announcement was given during the holidays.
2 months would be enough, but not in early september.

Now it's a good time to start the things again.
You may put a deadline to the 31th dec. or the 5th jan..

The rules were also HARD to understand. The 1/25th of the picture is really
a silly idea! Couldn't it be "show us how far you've gone into details"?
And i sincerely had to give false coordinates because i didn't have time to
render things again, and i had to recalculate the coordinates from the
"+sr0.000245" commands (it took me almost an hour to put those coordinates,
and to re-upload the detail image each time).
A detail view? Ok, you need to know if everything has been shown. But if
there was NOTHING? It's a subjective thing, the artist will show how far he
has gone into detail, and can't do more.
Just ask to provide a picture and two detailed pictures.

And why can't the entries be modified once submitted? I may want to submit
it once to be sure to participate, and to modify it as long as i still have
time.

The format rule has not been made to be understood. Couldn't you just type
"minimum resolution: 1280*960, maximum size 5Mb"? Why couldn't i do a
960*1280 picture? And an 960*2800 one?

You asked too much for a subject-free competition. So it failed.
Do not blame any of us for that.

I just hope that povcomp will succeed.

selsek

selsek wrote:

> The rules were also HARD to understand.

Start with the intent - to form poster-sized artworks that showcased
POVray's abilities. You can't do that with only clever textures, fog, loop
statements. You need a lot more.

> The 1/25th of the picture is really
> a silly idea! Couldn't it be "show us how far you've gone into details"?

Question: How small are we _allowed_ to make the details?

> And i sincerely had to give false coordinates because i didn't have time
to
> render things again, and i had to recalculate the coordinates from the
> "+sr0.000245" commands (it took me almost an hour to put those
coordinates,
> and to re-upload the detail image each time).

Right. Holding us to exact coordinates constrains how we re-render. In this
case, part of the intent is "prove you didn't just render something else and
claim that it's one pixel in the main picture". If I prove that fact by
providing sources, then the coordinates are irrelevant.

> A detail view? Ok, you need to know if everything has been shown. But if
> there was NOTHING? It's a subjective thing, the artist will show how far
he
> has gone into detail, and can't do more.

This goes back to the intent - to showcase POVray technology.

Folks, Michelango rendered the Ceiling of the Sistine Chapel to satisfy his
customer (the Pope) first. Satisfying his own muse came second.

> And why can't the entries be modified once submitted? I may want to submit
> it once to be sure to participate, and to modify it as long as i still
have
> time.

They can. You just go thru the Web page and push it back in.

-- 
  Phlip
  http://industrialxp.org/community/bin/view/Main/TestFirstUserInterfaces

Gilles Tran wrote:
> One major reason for the lack of exceptional pieces may have been that the 
> time period of two and a half months was too short. POVCOMP is of an order 
> of magnitude harder than the IRTC, and the organisers underestimated the 
> time needed to create this sort of work without giving up on real life. 
> People couldn't find the time to complete their entries, and among those 
> submitted, we feel that many can be improved.

   That describes perfectly my thoughts (both that the time period was 
short and that many things on my entry can be improved).

> Accordingly, it has been decided to postpone the deadline until January 31, 
> 2005. That's almost 3 additional months for people to resume or complete 
> their work, or submit new ones.

   Can I admit that I *really* fantasized with this? :)

> Again, this was not an easy decision to take. I'm painfully aware of how 
> difficult this must be for the POVCOMP participants. We hope, however, that 
> these 3 extra months will result in many exceptional pictures.

   I feel it was a necessary reparation... for me, rectifying a mistake 
is always a good thing. And for the time/effort "wasted" chasing the 
last deadline... well, it was a very good experience that I don't mind 
repeating.

--
Jaime

OK.

As some of you know, I planned to participate in this
competition with an Escher-like scene.

But I did not have time to finish all the macros that
I needed, so I did not enter the contest.

After the previous deadline had passed, someone asked
me about what I was working on and I answered.

Today I also posted an image that shows how some of
the macros works in a similar scene.

Now I wonder:

Can I carry on with this scene and submit it when it
is finished, or have I revealed too much about it ?

-- 
Tor Olav
http://subcube.net
http://subcube.com

Gilles Tran wrote:
<clip>

> Accordingly, it has been decided to postpone the deadline until January 31, 
> 2005. That's almost 3 additional months for people to resume or complete 
> their work, or submit new ones.

Wow. I might actually submit something now. I thought for sure I missed 
this train. Thanks for reporting!

-Sam

"Tor Olav Kristensen" <tor### [at] TOBEREMOVEDgmailcom> wrote in message 
news:417ae63d$1@news.povray.org...
>
> As some of you know, I planned to participate...
<snip>
> Can I carry on with this scene and submit it when it
> is finished, or have I revealed too much about it ?
>

While I can't provide you with an official response, I can remind you of 
Chris Cason's response regarding anonymity:

"Please be aware that a significant proportion of the judges will not be
folks who tend to hang around this server. This is intentional. Some will
have no connection to POV-Ray at all.

"Also they will not see the registration list or anything of the sort prior
to their votes being cast."

To me, that sounds like you're free to continue, and if any judges recognize 
the work as yours, well, that's bound to happen in some cases, regardless. 
Additionally, I would guess that 3 months from now, most people will have 
forgotten what you just said, and would probably not connect anything to 
your picture(s).

Another option for you might be to work on something very similar, in order 
to utilize some of what you've created.  Just a thought.

-- 
Jeremy
www.beantoad.com

"selsek" <sel### [at] despammedcom> a écrit dans le message de news: 
web.417adbffb45fa19e939d10d20@news.povray.org...

> And the time wasn't the best to choose: i didn't have much time for my
> submission since i was starting the year. If i remember well, the
> competition announcement was given during the holidays.
> 2 months would be enough, but not in early september.

I don't think there's an ideal, universal period for such a long 
competition. People have all different time constraints.

> The rules were also HARD to understand. The 1/25th of the picture is 
> really
> a silly idea! Couldn't it be "show us how far you've gone into details"?

About the 1/25th being a silly idea, I disagree. If we had run the 
competition like 3D competions are run today, we would have asked for the 
full, large size, printable render.  This is what is expected in a 
competition where the winning images will be shown (or so we hope) in 
magazines and such. And of course, this is what is expected if you're 
working professionally for a client. Again, working for print isn't the same 
as working for a 800x600 screen. It's a different kind of work, with lots of 
additional constraints. And in my view, it's much more exciting and really 
worth it...

We ask for detail images so that people won't spend most of the competition 
time watching pixels crawl across the screen. Knowing our beloved POV-Ray, 
we expect that some entries will take days or weeks to render at screen 
size(and some probably already did), so asking people to provide full size, 
printable renders would be too much to ask.

But for this, we have to provide strict rules concerning the size of the 
detail images: experience shows that not giving precise rules always means 
big trouble, so we would have ended up making them anyway.

Personally I still don't think that the detail rules are so complicated: 
it's just a simple ratio, and nothing that could possibly scare an 
experienced POV-Ray user who's playing with complex CSG, isosurfaces and the 
like! But it's true that some people found them confusing, and indeed, if 
people have a better way to express them, please do so.

> And why can't the entries be modified once submitted? I may want to submit
> it once to be sure to participate, and to modify it as long as i still 
> have
> time.

I'm not sure of what you mean by "to be sure to participate". Participation 
is defined by the registration.

> The format rule has not been made to be understood. Couldn't you just type
> "minimum resolution: 1280*960, maximum size 5Mb"? Why couldn't i do a
> 960*1280 picture? And an 960*2800 one?

It's a good point.

> You asked too much for a subject-free competition. So it failed.

No, it's just that all of us are a little spoiled by the very relaxed rules 
of the IRTC, and by the fact that we don't have experienced 3D pros walking 
among us. Just have a look at other 3D competitions or sites like Raph.com 
to see what I mean. As I said, the bar has been raised very high these days, 
and I mean *** high ***. See for instance: 
http://cgnetworks.com/challenge/machineflesh/

> Do not blame any of us for that.

We don't blame anyone apart ourselves, for underestimating the time 
required.

Entrants did their best, considering the time constraints. Most, if not all 
of us, are hobbyists, working on our POV-Ray work at night or during the 
week-ends, between studies (for the youngest) or work/family duties, and the 
type of work required for the POVCOMP is clearly of professional quality, 
the sort of stuff that people who do graphics on a full-time basis can do. 
If I had entered the competition, I would have given up early or I would 
have submitted a subpar image, all due to real life interference. By 
postponing the deadline, we want to give more POV-Ray users the opportunity 
to create truly exceptional work.

G.


-- 
**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

"Tor Olav Kristensen" <tor### [at] TOBEREMOVEDgmailcom> a écrit dans le 
message de news: 417ae63d$1@news.povray.org...

> Can I carry on with this scene and submit it when it
> is finished, or have I revealed too much about it ?

Yes (my opinion at least). The judging is "blind" (at least according the 
current rules, which may or may not change), but since most of the judges 
won't be familiar with the POV-Ray community, I wouldn't call this a matter 
of concern. When it comes to art, anonymity is always relative, otherwise 
there wouldn't be something called "style".

G.


-- 
**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

Gilles Tran wrote:
> Hello
> 
> Accordingly, it has been decided to postpone the deadline until January 31, 
> 2005. 

Is that till midnight at the end or the beginning of the day? (don't 
answer this question, it's a joke.)

Anyway couldn't you give a jury rapport for the 56 submitted entries so 
the contestants know what to make better in the image or even if it is 
worth making better.
This would help to get some worthy images for the sponsors, I think.

Also if you make the images public with your comments, then also other 
people are clear what the level of their image must be to have a change 
for a price.

-Em

Gilles Tran wrote:

> Hello
Hi
<snip>
> Accordingly, it has been decided to postpone the deadline until January
> 31, 2005. That's almost 3 additional months for people to resume or
> complete their work, or submit new ones.

Wow, fantastic.

> In a nutshell:
<snip>
> - Those of you who did not submit due to lack of time are encouraged to
> resume work on their creation.
<snip>

My case, my case  ;-) I was a little sorry for not entering...
Maybe it's time to not exhibit more WIPs...
I feel like poving :-)))
Bye.

> Gilles Tran
> 

-- 
Txemi Jendrix
www.txemijendrix.com

Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:

> As some of you know, I planned to participate in this
> competition with an Escher-like scene.

> Now I wonder:
>
> Can I carry on with this scene and submit it when it
> is finished, or have I revealed too much about it ?

An Escher-like scene ... ?

Hey, that sounds like a good idea!!!

(Does that answer your question?;)

-- 
  Phlip
  http://industrialxp.org/community/bin/view/Main/TestFirstUserInterfaces

"emkaah" <emkaah@yahoodotcom> a écrit dans le message de news: 
417af71a@news.povray.org...

> Is that till midnight at the end or the beginning of the day? (don't 
> answer this question, it's a joke.)

There will be a countdown timer ! (to be confirmed, and pending official 
announcement).

> Anyway couldn't you give a jury rapport for the 56 submitted entries so 
> the contestants know what to make better in the image or even if it is 
> worth making better.
> This would help to get some worthy images for the sponsors, I think.

I'm not sure about having the judges commenting on all the images. This 
would lead on speculation about potential preferences from the judges etc.

However, I plan to write a short text addressing some of the most common 
shortcomings (which are not specific to the POVCOMP images).

> Also if you make the images public with your comments, then also other 
> people are clear what the level of their image must be to have a change 
> for a price.

The decision of making the images public is being considered, but no 
decision has been taken yet (it would depart from the original rules so it's 
not easy to decide). In any case, if you want to know what sort of level is 
expected, check a website like http://www.raph.com/3dartists/. I'll add 
other examples later.

Gilles

Gilles Tran wrote:
> "emkaah" <emkaah@yahoodotcom> a écrit dans le message de news: 
> 417af71a@news.povray.org...
> 
> 
>>Is that till midnight at the end or the beginning of the day? (don't 
>>answer this question, it's a joke.)
> 
> 
> There will be a countdown timer ! (to be confirmed, and pending official 
> announcement).
> 
> 
So you answered it anyway...ok.

> 
> 
> I'm not sure about having the judges commenting on all the images. This 
> would lead on speculation about potential preferences from the judges etc.

Yes, of course, but is it a problem to state that an image has potential 
if done better or not?

I mean with postponing the deadline, the competition is not really 
honest anymore. I would have done another image if I knew I had 6 months 
instead of 2.5 (one with more modeling or more complicated structures 
for example). The contestants who where too ambitious and only found out 
a week before the deadline they couldn't finish their image in time, 
have now the change to finish there project. So basically lousy planning 
gets rewarded.

Don't get me wrong I personally don't mind. With people like Tor Olav 
also participating makes the competition far more interesting.

When commenting on the submitted images, you give people ideas to make 
their work better. As most of us (if not all) are amateurs it would be a 
great learning experience. And pointing this out with examples would be 
more interesting. (Didn't you folks could make this competition better 
if you didn't got feedback in this newsgroup?)

> 
> 
>>Also if you make the images public with your comments, then also other 
>>people are clear what the level of their image must be to have a change 
>>for a price.
> 
> 
> The decision of making the images public is being considered, but no 
> decision has been taken yet (it would depart from the original rules so it's 
> not easy to decide). In any case, if you want to know what sort of level is 
> expected, check a website like http://www.raph.com/3dartists/. I'll add 
> other examples later.
> 
I agree it should be on this level. It's a pity they don't say how long 
they worked on the images.

-Em

"Gilles Tran" <gitran_nospam_@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:417a9f5a$1@news.povray.org...

> One major reason for the lack of exceptional pieces may have been
that the
> time period of two and a half months was too short. POVCOMP is of an
order
> of magnitude harder than the IRTC,

       That's how I looked at it, and consequently, I put my all into
it. The funny thing is that after I failed to submit, I didn't feel
disappointed, I was pleased enough with my image to override that and
was looking forward to the next PoVComp.

      Anyway, I digress, what I really wanted to say is thank you for
the update Gilles, I feel that it was the right move, and a very
generous decision indeed by the PoV Team. Thanks.

   ~Steve~



> Gilles Tran
>
> -- 
> **********************
> http://www.oyonale.com
> **********************
> - Graphic experiments
> - POV-Ray and Poser computer images
> - Posters
>
>

"emkaah" <emkaah@yahoodotcom> a écrit dans le message de news: 
417b077e$1@news.povray.org...

> So basically lousy planning gets rewarded.

I wouldn't call this "lousy planning". Participating in such a competition 
requires the sort of commitment that few people can afford, particularly 
those who have full-time jobs and families (see the "married folks" thread 
in p.off-topic). If one misses an evening of rendering because of some 
kid-related emergency, we can't blame lousy planning.
Oh, well, we can assume that the "lousy planners" would have been lousy too 
with a 6-month period ;-) With POV-Ray, resources (time, RAM) always end up 
being consumed in totality, no matter how much one has at the beginning.

G.


-- 
**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

Gilles Tran wrote:

> ...If one misses an evening of rendering because of some
> kid-related emergency, we can't blame lousy planning.

But Daaaad! Hello Kitty just announced their fall line of fashions on the
Fascist Spam Network! My pinks don't coordinate any more!! We have to go to
the mall _right_now_!!!

-- 
  Phlip
  http://industrialxp.org/community/bin/view/Main/TestFirstUserInterfaces

rben <ray### [at] comcastnet> wrote:
>  Being told that the sum of the efforts that were
> submitted was not good enough for you to award a prize is a slap in the
> face to all of us.  This doesn't encourage me to provide you with a better
> work, this makes me reluctant to continue to participate.
> Personally, I feel that you should award the prizes and organize a new
> contest if you feel that you didn't get what you wanted from this one.

  I'm not talking officially as a TAG member, so this is a completely
unofficial remark - and pardon my french but, would you just shut up?
Your thinking is just ... simple (I have a really strong urge to write
a much stronger expression here, and it requires lots of strength to
refrain from doing so.)

  The team organized a really big competition and got sponsors to join
with huge prices, all in good faith, and when they realize they made
a miscalculation and want to remedy it, they only get idiotic responses
from people like you.

  "Organize a new contest"... Haha! Do you think AMD and Zazzle will be
pleased and willing to sponsor regularly competitions with enormous prices
but with hastily developed entries? Who will give the prices next? You?
  If people need time to create superb images, that's what they should get.

  Comments like yours are only going to cause the team to not to organize
anything like this anymore. And I'm not just talking here, I'm serious.
  The team should get our gratitude from organizing such big events,
not reprimands.

  You simply don't know what you are talking about, so please just shut
up, will you?

-- 
plane{-x+y,-1pigment{bozo color_map{[0rgb x][1rgb x+y]}turbulence 1}}
sphere{0,2pigment{rgbt 1}interior{media{emission 1density{spherical
density_map{[0rgb 0][.5rgb<1,.5>][1rgb 1]}turbulence.9}}}scale
<1,1,3>hollow}text{ttf"timrom""Warp".1,0translate<-1,-.1,2>}//  - Warp -

Hi

Here are my thoughts:

In a way I am quite glad that the deadline has been relaxed. It means I will
have enough time to sort out my lighting and improve on my scene. On the
other hand I have very little time now the summer is over and I will
actually not be able to spend much more time on it. The deadline being so
close inspired me to do a lot of work and now I have until january I am not
sure I will be able to motivate myself to go through the code again. Once I
finish a project like this I tend to want to stay far away from it so
having two deadlines in that sense is bad. I had also been looking forward
to seeing some beautiful images pretty soon. Guess I'll have to wait.

I do not think the pictures should be posted or even looked at by the
judeges now. If this happens, people will build up negative comments about
the pictures which, even if the cause of the problem is fixed in the final
submission, will cause the final judging to be predudiced.

Peter

Gilles Tran wrote:
> "Tor Olav Kristensen" <tor### [at] TOBEREMOVEDgmailcom> a écrit dans le 
> message de news: 417ae63d$1@news.povray.org...
> 
> 
>>Can I carry on with this scene and submit it when it
>>is finished, or have I revealed too much about it ?
> 
> 
> Yes (my opinion at least). The judging is "blind" (at least according the 
> current rules, which may or may not change), but since most of the judges 
> won't be familiar with the POV-Ray community, I wouldn't call this a matter 
> of concern. When it comes to art, anonymity is always relative, otherwise 
> there wouldn't be something called "style".

I see. Thank you for your opinion.

Btw. I'm very happy about the new deadline !

-- 
Tor Olav
http://subcube.net
http://subcube.com

Jeremy M. Praay wrote:
> "Tor Olav Kristensen" <tor### [at] TOBEREMOVEDgmailcom> wrote in message 
> news:417ae63d$1@news.povray.org...
> 
>>As some of you know, I planned to participate...
> 
> <snip>
> 
>>Can I carry on with this scene and submit it when it
>>is finished, or have I revealed too much about it ?
>>
> 
> 
> While I can't provide you with an official response, I can remind you of 
> Chris Cason's response regarding anonymity:
> 
> "Please be aware that a significant proportion of the judges will not be
> folks who tend to hang around this server. This is intentional. Some will
> have no connection to POV-Ray at all.

Yes now I remember.


> "Also they will not see the registration list or anything of the sort prior
> to their votes being cast."
> 
> To me, that sounds like you're free to continue, and if any judges recognize 
> the work as yours, well, that's bound to happen in some cases, regardless. 
> Additionally, I would guess that 3 months from now, most people will have 
> forgotten what you just said, and would probably not connect anything to 
> your picture(s).

You and Gilles are probably right Jeremy, so I'll just continue my work.


> Another option for you might be to work on something very similar, in order 
> to utilize some of what you've created.  Just a thought.

I'll do that too if I have enough time, which is very unlikely...

-- 
Tor Olav
http://subcube.net
http://subcube.com

Phlip wrote:
> Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
> 
> 
>>As some of you know, I planned to participate in this
>>competition with an Escher-like scene.
> 
> 
>>Now I wonder:
>>
>>Can I carry on with this scene and submit it when it
>>is finished, or have I revealed too much about it ?
> 
> 
> An Escher-like scene ... ?
> 
> Hey, that sounds like a good idea!!!
> 
> (Does that answer your question?;)

Hehe - yes. And I get your point.

(But it wouldn't bother me much if other people were
to submit Escher-like renderings too.)

-- 
Tor Olav
http://subcube.net
http://subcube.com

>But for this, we have to provide strict rules concerning the size of the
>detail images: experience shows that not giving precise rules always means
>big trouble, so we would have ended up making them anyway.

Example: in my image, there's a car i've modelled. I've put much details in
it.
1- the car takes a big part of the image: there's nothing more to show,
there's no more details, you won't see more things if i give you a detailed
image, but if i must provide one, i'll just provide an near-empty image.
2-the car in very small in the whole image: if i want to provide the 1/25th
of the image, i'll have to show the things that aren't needed to be shown
around the car. But I want to show you the car, not the things around that
will waste cpu time. In that case i'll have to make a BIG picture to show
its details, and so some rendering time will be wasted.
Because it's a long and hard work, just by asking at least two detailed
images, we'll show where we have gone into details, we don't need rules to
show what we can do. And the judges don't need a specifically sized view to
see where the artist has gone into details.
I can't see what you get from the rules on these detailed views. What do you
loose if i give a 1/40th view instead of a 1/10th? Can't i just show my
work?
Maybe you don't have to put precise rules, but only the aim of it, why you
need theses.

>Personally I still don't think that the detail rules are so complicated:
>it's just a simple ratio, and nothing that could possibly scare an
>experienced POV-Ray user who's playing with complex CSG, isosurfaces
> and the like!

Well, just try one thing: make an image where a sphere takes 80% of the
image and show me a detailed view according to these rules. Now do the same
thing with a tiny sphere that takes 2% of the picture. Pretty hard to do,
no?

> But it's true that some people found them confusing, and
> indeed, if people have a better way to express them, please do so.

No rules at all! yeah! :))

>> And why can't the entries be modified once submitted? I may want to submit
>> it once to be sure to participate, and to modify it as long as i still
>> have time.
>I'm not sure of what you mean by "to be sure to participate". Participation
>is defined by the registration.

"to have one entry"
Example: I submit my image, and then i'm sure that that even if i don't
modify it, even if i fell sick, the judges will see it, but i still can
easily modify it if i want, anytime. Instead, here, you have to: 1-
complete it 2- submit it 3- no 3, you can't modify, you just delete it and
restart the process (i haven't spent much time on that, though).

>No, it's just that all of us are a little spoiled by the very relaxed rules
>of the IRTC, and by the fact that we don't have experienced 3D pros
> walking among us. Just have a look at other 3D competitions or sites
> like Raph.com to see what I mean. As I said, the bar has been raised
> very high these days, and I mean *** high ***. See for instance:
>http://cgnetworks.com/challenge/machineflesh/

In those competitions, there are pros who compete to get a name in order to
find a job...
And most of povray community is made of hobbyists.
And, as it's written on the homepage of povcomp, it's not professionnaly
used for its artistic side.

>we want to give more POV-Ray users the opportunity to create
> truly exceptional work.

This sentence has to be on the homepage of povcomp!

selsek

Gilles, I can imagine how the sponsors would feel with so many prices and so 
little participants.....

Maybe non-pov users might be interested in participating and trying pov-ray. 
If someone managed to use POV-Ray as a renderer with maya or a package like 
that........ that would be interesting!

Eli wrote:

> Gilles, I can imagine how the sponsors would feel with so many prices and
so
> little participants.....
>
> Maybe non-pov users might be interested in participating and trying
pov-ray.

Could you live with yourself if the prize winner was a cube?

-- 
  Phlip
  http://industrialxp.org/community/bin/view/Main/TestFirstUserInterfaces

"Gilles Tran" <gitran_nospam_@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> "rben" <ray### [at] comcastnet> a écrit dans le message de news:
> web.417aa863b45fa19e497bbfc0@news.povray.org...
> > First of all, thank you for finally telling us what is going on.
>
> We certainly owed it to you.
>
> > Being told that the sum of the efforts that were
> > submitted was not good enough for you to award a prize is a slap in the
> > face to all of us.

Thanks for the response and the clarifications.  I apologize if I was a bit
crabby.

Well, now that I've had time to get used to the idea, I can certainly see a
lot of things I'd like to improve in my image, so I'll probably be
submitting it anew for the competition once I've got those changes done.

I would like to make a few more suggestions that I hope are helpful:

1) Add the explanation about copyright to the official rules.  You might
also explain that any other information in the image that can be used to
identify the entrant should be removed.  For instance, I noticed that in my
image, there is a directory path in part of the image that has my name in
it.  I also have a picture of myself included, but I'm pretty sure that
none of the judges know who I am based on my picture....

2) Set a lower limit on the number of images that need to be submitted
before judging can go forward.  I know that whatever you pick will be a bit
arbitrary, but it will make it a bit easier to manage expectations.

3) Continue to try to get publicity for the contest and encourage all
current entrants to encourage others to get involved.  There is still a lot
of time between now and January 31st, and I'm sure that lots of people
could create a good image in the time between now and then.

4) Perhaps someone could set up an IRC channel #povcomp2004, where artists
can waste time and talk about new ways to procrastinate.

5) Provide some kind of acknowledgement, perhaps a t-shirt or some bit of
inexpensive swag, to the people who met the first deadline.

6) Upon discussing this contest with a friend of mine, he pointed out what
might be part of the problem.  Since you have explicitely stated that
artists will be given more credit for self-made models than ones borrowed
from someone else or created using 3rd party tools, you may have narrowed
the pool of participants to POV-Ray artists who are very good at creating
models and in creating impressive images using those models.  You have
limited the ability for those artists who are primarily good at creating
impressive images using models that others have created.  Personally, I
like this, since I make most if not all of my own models for each image,
but it does narrow the field considerably.

It might make sense to arrange the Guidelines in the order in which they
will affect the judging, that might help people to better understand the
tradeoffs they might be making in thier image.

7) Reading through the posts I've gotten the impression that some people
believe that using old models that were created for other images either
isn't allowed or will count against you.  I can't find anything in the
rules that says that.  The rules just say that trivial modifications of
older images aren't acceptable.  This is good, because many of the finest
IRTC images were created by artists who dipped into their extensive
libraries of previously constructed models.

If, as I expect, you don't have any problem with an artist using/adapting
models they created in the past in this image, then it might be best to say
so explicitly.

I hope this is of some help.
  Ray

"Eli" <eli### [at] jehoelnet> a écrit dans le message de
news:417ce89e@news.povray.org...

> Gilles, I can imagine how the sponsors would feel with so many prices and
so
> little participants.....

I don't know how they'd feel, but organising a second event like this would
sure be a little bit more difficult (and it wasn't easy in the first
place)...

> Maybe non-pov users might be interested in participating and trying
pov-ray.
> If someone managed to use POV-Ray as a renderer with maya or a package
like
> that........ that would be interesting!

Truly, I've seen nice stuff concerted from Maya and rendered in POV-Ray.
Still, I have a hard time imagining an experienced Maya user who would start
learning POV-Ray only to participate in the competition... (Of course, it
may have already been the case in this competition, who knows?)

G.

-- 

**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

Gilles Tran <tra### [at] inapginrafr> wrote:
> Still, I have a hard time imagining an experienced Maya user who would start
> learning POV-Ray only to participate in the competition...

  The first price should be incentive enough... :P

-- 
#macro M(A,N,D,L)plane{-z,-9pigment{mandel L*9translate N color_map{[0rgb x]
[1rgb 9]}scale<D,D*3D>*1e3}rotate y*A*8}#end M(-3<1.206434.28623>70,7)M(
-1<.7438.1795>1,20)M(1<.77595.13699>30,20)M(3<.75923.07145>80,99)// - Warp -

But what am I going to do with the 10,000 lawyers I have on retainer to
swoop in and file suits alleging fraud and/or disenfranchisement?  I can't
afford to keep them around until January.

Well, for me, personally, thank you.  By next week all the bandages will be
removed from my right hand, and the pins will be out of my finger, and I
should be POVing ahead full steam.  (Not that my submission would have
altered the committee's opinion about overall quality.)

And I do think that it is very important to get submissions from more of the
really great POVers, especially since you and Christoph and some of the
other experts exempted yourselves in order to organize the competition.
Not to name names, but it would be nice to get entries from the likes of
Tor Olav, Shay, Tek, St. (Steve), etc.  Just off the top of my head, I can
think of 50 regular contributors to p.b.i. who are capable of some very
impressive stuff, and there must be at least twice that many more who only
lurk, or don't bother visiting the newsgroups at all, who are of a similar
caliber.

Let me also add my voice of support and thanks to all of you for the
tremendous amount of work you put into making POVRay and the POVRay
community such a success.

Dave Matthews

"rben" <ray### [at] comcastnet> a écrit dans le message de news: 
web.417d11adb45fa19e497bbfc0@news.povray.org...

> Thanks for the response and the clarifications.  I apologize if I was a 
> bit
> crabby.

Thanks. No harm done. Well, bad news are bad news, no matter how they are 
delivered.

> 1) Add the explanation about copyright to the official rules.  You might
> also explain that any other information in the image that can be used to
> identify the entrant should be removed.  For instance, I noticed that in 
> my
> image, there is a directory path in part of the image that has my name in
> it.  I also have a picture of myself included, but I'm pretty sure that
> none of the judges know who I am based on my picture....

Well, putting some identifying items (other than a signature) in the image 
can be an artistic choice and I'm of the opinion that this should not be 
regulated. If you want to put a picture of yourself in the image, or a 
directory path, because it adds artistic value to the image, this is your 
choice and I think that it has to be accepted as such.

In any case, total anonymity is close to impossible. People can have 
recognisable styles, use favourite objects, topics or textures etc. But 
since most of the judges won't be familiar with the community, this 
shouldn't be a problem. I'd say that we should trust the judges to do their 
best to ignore the names of the entrants (for instance, they won't do 
intensive searches to discover who is who...), and that entrants should do 
their best to keep to the guidelines as they are written now. Let's have 
common sense and good manners prevail.

> 2) Set a lower limit on the number of images that need to be submitted
> before judging can go forward.

I have no prior experience in organising contests, so it's difficult for me 
to comment on that. I'd be willing to know how the sort of issues we're 
facing right now are taken into consideration in other competitions (though 
it's too late now).

> 3) Continue to try to get publicity for the contest and encourage all
> current entrants to encourage others to get involved.

We'll certainly try to do that in the weeks to come. I'm glad that a good 
number of people have already declared their interest in participating.

> 4) Perhaps someone could set up an IRC channel #povcomp2004, where artists
> can waste time and talk about new ways to procrastinate.
> 5) Provide some kind of acknowledgement, perhaps a t-shirt or some bit of
> inexpensive swag, to the people who met the first deadline.

I'll run this with the organisers. I'm not sure about the "inexpensive swag" 
thing, as it could be perceived as condescending by some folks.

> 6) Upon discussing this contest with a friend of mine, he pointed out what
> might be part of the problem.  Since you have explicitely stated that
> artists will be given more credit for self-made models than ones borrowed
> from someone else or created using 3rd party tools, you may have narrowed
> the pool of participants to POV-Ray artists who are very good at creating
> models and in creating impressive images using those models.

(note that the guidelines do not say "3rd party tools", but "3rd party 
models", but your point remains valid)

Part of POV-Ray's greatness and specificity is the use of code to create 
models. I've been a mesh user for years, a promoter of mesh and image maps 
in POV-Ray, and a big user of 3rd party objects and tools but if I had 
entered the competition, I would certainly have made sure that some 
prominent models in the scene would have been both original and hand-coded. 
This being a POV-Ray competition, asking people to show off their POV-Ray 
skills is somehow mandatory. Can this turn off people? Perhaps, but the best 
POV-Ray images should be intrinsically POV-Ray made, just like Poser 
contests, for instance, have the use of Poser models as a central point. 
This would be different if the competition was open to other renderers (like 
the IRTC).

> If, as I expect, you don't have any problem with an artist using/adapting
> models they created in the past in this image, then it might be best to 
> say
> so explicitly.

This could be made more explicit. On a side note, writing guidelines (and 
contracts) is always a "damned-if-you-do, damned if you don't" exercise. 
Write too much of it, and a sizeable number of people will misread it or 
fail to read it. Write not enough of it, and a equally sizeable number of 
people will be confused by the lack of guidance and start seeing things 
where there's nothing to see. Finding the right balance is tough.

> I hope this is of some help.

Your help is welcome !

Gilles


-- 
**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

Dave Matthews wrote:
> And I do think that it is very important to get submissions from more of the
> really great POVers, especially since you and Christoph and some of the
> other experts exempted yourselves in order to organize the competition.

I think everybody can participate now including organizers. Why not?

Gena.

"Gilles Tran" <gitran_nospam_@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> Hello
>
> Disclaimer: this is not an official statement. An official announcement from
> the POVCOMP organizers will follow (some details are still being worked on)
> and participants will be emailed privately.
>
> There are 56 entries. Among these, there are exceptional images, that would
> be worthy of the main prizes. People have been working hard, and these
> images are a good testimony of what can be achieved with POV-Ray.
>
> However, these exceptional images are too few. The competition was all about
> getting the best out of POV-Ray, and while most entries are very good, they
> are on the whole not up to the standard that can be observed in current 3D
> contests. It's not an easy thing to say and we understand that this may be
> offending to some. Be sure that we fully realise the amount of work that was
> put in all entries: it's just that the bar has been raised very high in 3D
> these days. The feedback on the new hall of fame was extremely positive:
> this newfound reputation should not be squandered. We all know that POV-Ray
> is an exceptional piece of software, so we need lots of exceptional artworks
> to prove it.
>
> One major reason for the lack of exceptional pieces may have been that the
> time period of two and a half months was too short. POVCOMP is of an order
> of magnitude harder than the IRTC, and the organisers underestimated the
> time needed to create this sort of work without giving up on real life.
> People couldn't find the time to complete their entries, and among those
> submitted, we feel that many can be improved.
>
> Accordingly, it has been decided to postpone the deadline until January 31,
> 2005. That's almost 3 additional months for people to resume or complete
> their work, or submit new ones.
> In a nutshell:
> - Those of you who have submitted an image will be given the opportunity to
> unsubmit it and resume work.
> - Those of you who did not submit due to lack of time are encouraged to
> resume work on their creation.
> - For those who are happy with what they have submitted already, their image
> will remain in its 'submitted' state. Of course, you can always create a new
> work.
>
> The precise procedures to do so will be explained later.
>
> Again, this was not an easy decision to take. I'm painfully aware of how
> difficult this must be for the POVCOMP participants. We hope, however, that
> these 3 extra months will result in many exceptional pictures.
>
> Gilles Tran
>
> --
> **********************
> http://www.oyonale.com
> **********************
> - Graphic experiments
> - POV-Ray and Poser computer images
> - Posters

First of all I would have to say I am disappointed. There where rules for
this competition that we all had to follow. If the level of art was not up
to standard there was no prevision in the rules to cover this. In such
there could be legal issues involved. I do not want to stop any further
competitions by scaring the organizers away. I do however believe more
respect to those that did make the deadline should be shown. Could my image
be better? Yes but I made the dead line with the best I could make. I have
heard here many times how the pov team must balance their time and life
with writing povray and I agree but now when we push and work to produce
with in the given required timeline we get blasted for not producing well
enough.

The idea of a competition was great. The execution was fair given that it
was a first run. It is time to complete this one, award the prizes, state
the improvements for later and go again with the improvements. If the
companies that donated the prizes expected this competition to be perfect
then perhaps new sponsors are needed anyway. I am sure everyone has learned
something from this.

If the deadline is moved officially I will put more time in to my image. I
am glad to be able to do so. But, this is not the normal way to handle
these problems in normal competition. Like I said before; there could be
legal issues that could change things. If anyone has access to legal advice
I would encourage some counseling.

m1j wrote:
> the improvements for later and go again with the improvements. If the
> companies that donated the prizes expected this competition to be perfect
> then perhaps new sponsors are needed anyway. 
Dumbo.

> legal issues that could change things. If anyone has access to legal advice
> I would encourage some counseling.
> 
Suggesting to sue a bunch of VOLUNTEERS working hard to make an OPEN 
competition for a FREEWARE product a success, isn't mine style. And 
neither should be yours.

-Em

emkaah <emkaah@yahoodotcom> wrote:
> m1j wrote:
> > the improvements for later and go again with the improvements. If the
> > companies that donated the prizes expected this competition to be perfect
> > then perhaps new sponsors are needed anyway.
> Dumbo.
>
> > legal issues that could change things. If anyone has access to legal advice
> > I would encourage some counseling.
> >
> Suggesting to sue a bunch of VOLUNTEERS working hard to make an OPEN
> competition for a FREEWARE product a success, isn't mine style. And
> neither should be yours.
>
> -Em

There is no suggesting in my post. I was just stating a warning. We could
all go blindly forward thinking no one here would do something like this
but with $14,000 in prize money there could be someone now or after the
finals are posted in Feb. that after losing decides they where not dealt
properly. The rules are conditions to a contract that was ratified by each
of us submitting an entry. To change the rules now with out first including
all those involved is a breach of contract. With such a team of volunteers
it would be a very easy win for anyone who lacking in integrity would spend
the money to file a suit. The Pov team would have no funds to fight and
would be force to agree to a settlement. That would be a very bad deal for
all of us. I am just worried. I am not sure if this issue was considered in
the decision.