This is the first of three instalments under the general title "the 
Shallows". The second instalment still needs a final render after some 
more tinkering. The third one has not yet been started. Render time was 
particularly long: I estimate about some 48 hours in total. I always 
render in sections divided over several render sessions and this time 
the complete process took several weeks. Slowest was the middle section 
(the background) and fastest was the sky. Render speed was more often 
expressed in ppm than in pps.

There are several media: part of the clouds over the Giant; the water; 
the background trees; the slightly hazy atmosphere.

Inspiration came from two sources: https://silenceofthetides.com and a 
reference to Francisco Goya's painting "The Giant".

Objects from Friedrich Lohmueller were gratefully used: the railway 
tracks and wheels, and the houses on the background.

Thomas

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Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> This is the first of three instalments under the general title "the
> Shallows". The second instalment still needs a final render after some
> more tinkering. The third one has not yet been started. Render time was
> particularly long: I estimate about some 48 hours in total. I always
> render in sections divided over several render sessions and this time
> the complete process took several weeks. Slowest was the middle section
> (the background) and fastest was the sky. Render speed was more often
> expressed in ppm than in pps.
>
> There are several media: part of the clouds over the Giant; the water;
> the background trees; the slightly hazy atmosphere.
>
> Inspiration came from two sources: https://silenceofthetides.com and a
> reference to Francisco Goya's painting "The Giant".
>
> Objects from Friedrich Lohmueller were gratefully used: the railway
> tracks and wheels, and the houses on the background.
>
> Thomas

Very cool!  I can appreciate long render times.  I am working on a scene with a
rocky/sandy island with a fortress in the middle of a body of water.  My first
attempt to render at high quality with radiosity took 96 hours!

I am looking forward to seeing the other parts.

-- Chris R.

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Op 08/09/2022 om 20:45 schreef Chris R:
> Very cool!  I can appreciate long render times.  I am working on a scene with a
> rocky/sandy island with a fortress in the middle of a body of water.  My first
> attempt to render at high quality with radiosity took 96 hours!
> 
> I am looking forward to seeing the other parts.
> 

Thanks indeed Chris!

During scene building I used a dim fog instead of the atmospheric media 
and render times were in the order of a couple of hours. I took care not 
to have the media containers overlap in order to avoid any 
cross-interference, however I could not avoid the overlapping of the 
atmospheric media with the tree media (10000 of those) and I /think/ 
that most of the slowdown was thus generated.

-- 
Thomas

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Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> This is the first of three instalments under the general title "the
> Shallows".

Nice!

I thought green men where little?

ingo

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Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> This is the first of three instalments under the general title "the
> Shallows". The second instalment still needs a final render after some
> more tinkering. The third one has not yet been started. Render time was
> particularly long: I estimate about some 48 hours in total. I always
> render in sections divided over several render sessions and this time
> the complete process took several weeks. Slowest was the middle section
> (the background) and fastest was the sky. Render speed was more often
> expressed in ppm than in pps.
>
> There are several media: part of the clouds over the Giant; the water;
> the background trees; the slightly hazy atmosphere.
>
> Inspiration came from two sources: https://silenceofthetides.com and a
> reference to Francisco Goya's painting "The Giant".
>
> Objects from Friedrich Lohmueller were gratefully used: the railway
> tracks and wheels, and the houses on the background.
>
> Thomas

Hi !
Everything is great about this : composition, idea, ...

But, of course I have to say I believe something would tremendously improve it:
light at a lower angled suntime like early morning or late afternoon along with
a slightly denser absorbing media for the general cirrus like cloud layer... No
matter if render times dropped from 1 day to seven, this would still be worth
it. To me, you have a scene with the same potential as these ones :
https://www.povray.org/community/hof/14b.php
http://www.povray.org/community/hof/view/7/

So please, please, consider the loss it would have been if authors had lowered
the bar on media... :-) awesome work!

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Op 9-9-2022 om 09:41 schreef ingo:
> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
>> This is the first of three instalments under the general title "the
>> Shallows".
> 
> Nice!
> 
> I thought green men where little?
> 

Ha! That is what they want us to believe!

-- 
Thomas

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Op 9-9-2022 om 12:25 schreef Mr:
> 
> Hi !
> Everything is great about this : composition, idea, ...
>  
But... ;-)

> But, of course I have to say I believe something would tremendously improve it:
> light at a lower angled suntime like early morning or late afternoon along with
> a slightly denser absorbing media for the general cirrus like cloud layer... No
> matter if render times dropped from 1 day to seven, this would still be worth
> it. To me, you have a scene with the same potential as these ones :
> https://www.povray.org/community/hof/14b.php
> http://www.povray.org/community/hof/view/7/
> 
Comments much appreciated indeed. Thanks! First of all, the general 
cloudscape is not a media. It is Zeger Knaepen's FastClouds macro which 
I like and use a lot. Only at the right-hand side of the scene, there is 
a media cloud layer added and you hardly distinguish it from the rest. I 
agree about the Sun's altitude but in the end I opted for a higher one. 
Instalment 2 (and maybe 3) might/will probably follow your suggestion, 
but I am not sure about that yet.

> So please, please, consider the loss it would have been if authors had lowered
> the bar on media... :-) awesome work!
> 
Lol. Of course!

-- 
Thomas

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Il 09/09/2022 13:34, Thomas de Groot ha scritto:

I like a lot the giant!

Paolo

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Le 2022-09-09 à 08:15, Paolo Gibellini a écrit :
> Il 09/09/2022 13:34, Thomas de Groot ha scritto:
> 
> I like a lot the giant!
> 
> Paolo
> 

His not a giant. That's a small autonomous service cart.

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Op 9-9-2022 om 16:42 schreef Alain Martel:
> Le 2022-09-09 à 08:15, Paolo Gibellini a écrit :
>> Il 09/09/2022 13:34, Thomas de Groot ha scritto:
>>
>> I like a lot the giant!
>>
>> Paolo
>>
> 
> His not a giant. That's a small autonomous service cart.

It much depends on what general perspective you consider the scene. :-)

-- 
Thomas

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hi,

Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> Op 9-9-2022 om 12:25 schreef Mr:
> > Everything is great about this : composition, idea, ...

late to the party, sorry.  agree, the idea, the arrangement, I have nothing to
add but my admiration.


> But... ;-) ...
> Comments much appreciated indeed. ...

maybe it is only the perspective but the plants to the left of the track look
more like a planted crop than "wilderness", intended?


regards, jr.

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Am 08.09.2022 um 15:26 schrieb Thomas de Groot:
> This is the first of three instalments under the general title "the 
> Shallows". The second instalment still needs a final render after some 
> more tinkering. The third one has not yet been started. Render time was 
> particularly long: I estimate about some 48 hours in total. I always 
> render in sections divided over several render sessions and this time 
> the complete process took several weeks. Slowest was the middle section 
> (the background) and fastest was the sky. Render speed was more often 
> expressed in ppm than in pps.
> 
> There are several media: part of the clouds over the Giant; the water; 
> the background trees; the slightly hazy atmosphere.
> 
> Inspiration came from two sources: https://silenceofthetides.com and a 
> reference to Francisco Goya's painting "The Giant".
> 
> Objects from Friedrich Lohmueller were gratefully used: the railway 
> tracks and wheels, and the houses on the background.
> 
> Thomas
Very nice image, but a horror to everyone concerned with occupational 
safety;)

Best regards,
Michael

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Op 09/09/2022 om 18:57 schreef jr:
> hi,
> 
> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
>> Op 9-9-2022 om 12:25 schreef Mr:
>>> Everything is great about this : composition, idea, ...
> 
> late to the party, sorry.  agree, the idea, the arrangement, I have nothing to
> add but my admiration.
> 

Thank you indeed. :-)

> 
>> But... ;-) ...
>> Comments much appreciated indeed. ...
> 
> maybe it is only the perspective but the plants to the left of the track look
> more like a planted crop than "wilderness", intended?
> 

Well, no. They are the same rushes at any rate and they are planted 
randomly like the others. Maybe the perspective suggests this to you?

-- 
Thomas

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Op 09/09/2022 om 19:21 schreef MichaelJF:
> Very nice image, but a horror to everyone concerned with occupational 
> safety;)
> 

Oh dear! Am I in trouble? ;-)  Anyway, that guy does what he wants to 
do. I have never been able to control him. I think that his original 
model (on the site) has more sense.

-- 
Thomas

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On 08/09/2022 15:26, Thomas de Groot wrote:
> This is the first of three instalments under the general title "the 
> Shallows". The second instalment still needs a final render after some 
> more tinkering. The third one has not yet been started. Render time was 
> particularly long: I estimate about some 48 hours in total. I always 
> render in sections divided over several render sessions and this time 
> the complete process took several weeks. Slowest was the middle section 
> (the background) and fastest was the sky. Render speed was more often 
> expressed in ppm than in pps.
> 
> There are several media: part of the clouds over the Giant; the water; 
> the background trees; the slightly hazy atmosphere.
> 
> Inspiration came from two sources: https://silenceofthetides.com and a 
> reference to Francisco Goya's painting "The Giant".
> 
> Objects from Friedrich Lohmueller were gratefully used: the railway 
> tracks and wheels, and the houses on the background.
> 
> Thomas
> 

Very good job !
Maybe add a little more reeds at the bottom right

-- 
Kurtz le pirate
Compagnie de la Banquise

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Op 10-9-2022 om 11:12 schreef kurtz le pirate:
> Very good job !
> Maybe add a little more reeds at the bottom right
> 

Thanks! No, the reeds will have to grow all by themselves (for the time 
being). :-)

-- 
Thomas

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On 10/09/2022 15:00, Thomas de Groot wrote:
> Op 10-9-2022 om 11:12 schreef kurtz le pirate:
>> Very good job !
>> Maybe add a little more reeds at the bottom right
>>
> 
> Thanks! No, the reeds will have to grow all by themselves (for the time 
> being). :-)
> 

You are right, let nature take its course


-- 
Kurtz le pirate
Compagnie de la Banquise

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A good image Thomas, I look forwards to seeing Instalment 2 and 3.

I like the composition of the scene, especially the background/hills/houses
trees (which I have never thought of using media for, the effect looks good).

It could be the distance of the giant but I would have expected his lower half
to maybe be beneath the clouds (although it isn't in your reference image so
probably intentional).

My main criticism would be some of the textures on the train, the top of the
roof looks great but the wheels look too clean/smooth. I know that part of the
wheel is pretty smooth/polished but it looks a bit plastic rather than metal.
Whereas the top of the track looks correct.

Also, given how rusty the top of the roof looks the rest of the train looks
untarnished.

Sean

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"s.day" <s.d### [at] uelacuk> wrote:

This is indeed coming along nicely.

For a railroad track in a swamp, I'd suggest that you give those railroad ties a
good amount of texturing and "rot" - especially on the ends.  Having grown up
around them and sawed them apart on a sawmill, I can tell you that the grain
will be deeply displaced and quite pronounced.   The ends are almost always
crumbling away with plenty of deep cracks.
Maybe isowood is the way to go, although that would add to the total render
time.

> My main criticism would be some of the textures on the train, the top of the
> roof looks great but the wheels look too clean/smooth. I know that part of the
> wheel is pretty smooth/polished but it looks a bit plastic rather than metal.
> Whereas the top of the track looks correct.

I'm sure TdG is still working on it - it's always a never ending list of things
to tweak and adjust.

But yes, the wheels caught my eye as well.
The tracks I think could use some dents and striations just to de-perfectionize
them.

https://pixels.com/featured/railroad-train-car-wheels-hitting-the-tracks-james-bo-insogna.html

> Also, given how rusty the top of the roof looks the rest of the train looks
> untarnished.

I'd say a little bit of added normal to the textures ought to address most of
those issues.

Although the clothing could use some wear and dirt as well --- unless he's going
for that 80's Duran Duran music video vibe...   :D    Put skinny leather ties on
those guys, and then it'll all be good.

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Nice atmospheric, scary image.
Other people mentioned it already, for a swamp, the train, tracks and men are a
bit too clean.
Can't wait what the other parts will be.

Cheers
Ton.

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Op 13-9-2022 om 19:33 schreef Bald Eagle:
> "s.day" <s.d### [at] uelacuk> wrote:
> 
> This is indeed coming along nicely.
> 
> For a railroad track in a swamp, I'd suggest that you give those railroad ties a
> good amount of texturing and "rot" - especially on the ends.  Having grown up
> around them and sawed them apart on a sawmill, I can tell you that the grain
> will be deeply displaced and quite pronounced.   The ends are almost always
> crumbling away with plenty of deep cracks.
> Maybe isowood is the way to go, although that would add to the total render
> time.
> 
>> My main criticism would be some of the textures on the train, the top of the
>> roof looks great but the wheels look too clean/smooth. I know that part of the
>> wheel is pretty smooth/polished but it looks a bit plastic rather than metal.
>> Whereas the top of the track looks correct.
> 
> I'm sure TdG is still working on it - it's always a never ending list of things
> to tweak and adjust.
> 
> But yes, the wheels caught my eye as well.
> The tracks I think could use some dents and striations just to de-perfectionize
> them.
> 
>
https://pixels.com/featured/railroad-train-car-wheels-hitting-the-tracks-james-bo-insogna.html
> 
>> Also, given how rusty the top of the roof looks the rest of the train looks
>> untarnished.
> 
> I'd say a little bit of added normal to the textures ought to address most of
> those issues.
> 
> Although the clothing could use some wear and dirt as well --- unless he's going
> for that 80's Duran Duran music video vibe...   :D    Put skinny leather ties on
> those guys, and then it'll all be good.
> 
> 

@Sean, Bald Eagle, and Ton:

Well, gentlemen, you have mentioned a couple of issues I hoped to get 
away with, forgetting that I was dealing with some unforgiving judges. ;-)

You are perfectly right of course about them. My only (feeble) defence 
would be that RL limits my opportunities to really perfect the scene, 
and in the end I am getting bored. A "remastering" would certainly be 
needed....

I am a bit short on time presently, so I shall come back with more 
detailed comments on your comments.

-- 
Thomas

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Il 09/09/2022 16:42, Alain Martel ha scritto:

Or perhaps Mr. Tur Tur of "Jim Knopf und Lukas der Lokomotivführer" (Jim
Button and Luke the Engine Driver) book...

Paolo

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Op 13-9-2022 om 18:08 schreef s.day:
> A good image Thomas, I look forwards to seeing Instalment 2 and 3.
> 
> I like the composition of the scene, especially the background/hills/houses
> trees (which I have never thought of using media for, the effect looks good).
> 
Thanks Sean!

> It could be the distance of the giant but I would have expected his lower half
> to maybe be beneath the clouds (although it isn't in your reference image so
> probably intentional).
> 
Intentional indeed. This guy is really huge.

> My main criticism would be some of the textures on the train, the top of the
> roof looks great but the wheels look too clean/smooth. I know that part of the
> wheel is pretty smooth/polished but it looks a bit plastic rather than metal.
> Whereas the top of the track looks correct.
> 
> Also, given how rusty the top of the roof looks the rest of the train looks
> untarnished.
> 
See my comments further on.

-- 
Thomas

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Op 13-9-2022 om 19:33 schreef Bald Eagle:
> "s.day" <s.d### [at] uelacuk> wrote:
> 
> This is indeed coming along nicely.
> 
> For a railroad track in a swamp, I'd suggest that you give those railroad ties a
> good amount of texturing and "rot" - especially on the ends.  Having grown up
> around them and sawed them apart on a sawmill, I can tell you that the grain
> will be deeply displaced and quite pronounced.   The ends are almost always
> crumbling away with plenty of deep cracks.
> Maybe isowood is the way to go, although that would add to the total render
> time.
> 
The railroad track is Friedrich Lohmueller's, and adapting/replacing his 
(part of) objects is always a challenge as important details may be 
dispersed over several include files. You are certainly right about the 
"wear-and-tear" shown by well-used ties. I have a couple of them in my 
garden, and there are more in the neighbourhood. They are deeply 
impregnated and their weathered colour is close to greyish, while not 
too crumbling or too rugged in fact. However, that is the local 
situation here. I am presently exploring the possibility of replacing 
those ties by an isowood version as you suggested and I'll see how it 
goes. In any case, I went back to the original texture used by 
Friedrich, which looks much better. Another option would be to replace 
them by meshes with displacement mapping.

>> My main criticism would be some of the textures on the train, the top of the
>> roof looks great but the wheels look too clean/smooth. I know that part of the
>> wheel is pretty smooth/polished but it looks a bit plastic rather than metal.
>> Whereas the top of the track looks correct.
> 
> I'm sure TdG is still working on it - it's always a never ending list of things
> to tweak and adjust.
> 
> But yes, the wheels caught my eye as well.

Indeed. Initially, I was not very satisfied with the original texture 
used by Friedrich Lohmueller, and I changed it, which made it worse. I 
went back to the original, identical to the top of the rails.


> The tracks I think could use some dents and striations just to de-perfectionize
> them.
> 
>
https://pixels.com/featured/railroad-train-car-wheels-hitting-the-tracks-james-bo-insogna.html
> 
Hmm... maybe...

>> Also, given how rusty the top of the roof looks the rest of the train looks
>> untarnished.
> 
> I'd say a little bit of added normal to the textures ought to address most of
> those issues.
> 
Yes, that was still a matter to address and has been done now.  Note 
however, that the front of the trolley is not illuminated directly and 
the normals are not very visible there (even with radiosity {normal on} ).


> Although the clothing could use some wear and dirt as well --- unless he's going
> for that 80's Duran Duran music video vibe...   :D    Put skinny leather ties on
> those guys, and then it'll all be good.
> 
LOL. I use the conforming clothes from Anton Kisiel's Apollo Maximus 
figure (Poser) as a basis and those are not uv-mapped, which makes 
things a bit more complicated. Apollo Maximus is devilishly complicated 
too as you may know! I shall explore alternatives to simulate that wear 
and dirt you ask for :-)

I am currently looking at all those issues, and some additional ones 
too. Installment #2 is on hold as a result as many things are applied 
there too.

-- 
Thomas

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