Hi(gh)!

It took quite some time (7'36) on my single-core Pentium IV laptop... 
but that's probably nothing compared to the original render time 20 
years ago!

As the grass blades are spaced surprisingly far apart, I wonder how it 
might look from a distance...

See you in Khyberspace!

Yadgar

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Attachments:
Download '1999-01-02 yet another grass scene (vahur krouverk) [rendered on 2019-11-14 by yadgar using pov-ray 3.1].png' (1200 KB)

Preview of image '1999-01-02 yet another grass scene (vahur krouverk) [rendered on 2019-11-14 by yadgar using pov-ray 3.1].png'

Hi(gh)!

On 14.11.19 08:45, Jörg "Yadgar" Bleimann wrote:

> As the grass blades are spaced surprisingly far apart, I wonder how it 
> might look from a distance...

Not very convincing... I'll have to space the grass blades closer!

See you in Khyberspace!

Yadgar

Now playing: Warriors (Synergy)

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Download '1999-01-02 yet another grass scene (vahur krouverk) [rendered on 2019-11-14 by yadgar, using pov-ray 3.1 and different c' (1011 KB)

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Op 14/11/2019 om 09:27 schreef Jörg "Yadgar" Bleimann:
> Hi(gh)!
> 
> On 14.11.19 08:45, Jörg "Yadgar" Bleimann wrote:
> 
>> As the grass blades are spaced surprisingly far apart, I wonder how it 
>> might look from a distance...
> 
> Not very convincing... I'll have to space the grass blades closer!
> 
> See you in Khyberspace!
> 
> Yadgar
> 
> Now playing: Warriors (Synergy)

It looks like the grass patch is in the shadow of something. Clouds? Try 
to rotate/translate the clouds' sphere (or plane) to a different position.

-- 
Thomas

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Hi(gh)!

On 14.11.19 09:30, Thomas de Groot wrote:

> It looks like the grass patch is in the shadow of something. Clouds? Try 
> to rotate/translate the clouds' sphere (or plane) to a different position.

Meanwhile, I stripped Vahur's scene down to the essentials, i. e. just 
the grass blades and a basic soil... also scaled the grass down to 0.01 
to match my usual measuring of 1 POV unit = 1 metre, replaced the 
original camera by a camera system using direction and azimuth and 
finally increased the number of blades (which are, properly, 
three-partite blades) from originally 30,000 to 300,000.

Now (see attachments) it looks more realistic to me...

In future versions, I would like to use this density (25,000 blades per 
square metre) as standard density and adapt the actual number of blades 
according to the meadow's size.

Of course, this is another attempt at POVghanistan... starting with 
public parks in cities on mostly flat terrain such als Herat or Mazar-e 
Sharif (less difficult to code than mountainous Kabul - and also more 
early "eye candy" for the interested public, such as the famous Timurid 
mosques), and, most important, for the time being, not placed onto an 
actual planetary sphere.

See you in Khyberspace!

Post a reply to this message

Attachments:
Download '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 1.jpg' (373 KB) Download '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 2.jpg' (702 KB)

Preview of image '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 1.jpg'

Preview of image '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 2.jpg'

Op 16/11/2019 om 03:57 schreef Jörg "Yadgar" Bleimann:
> Now (see attachments) it looks more realistic to me...
> 
> In future versions, I would like to use this density (25,000 blades per 
> square metre) as standard density and adapt the actual number of blades 
> according to the meadow's size.

Alternatively, you can use a patch: one single parsed square metre, 
copied (rotated & translated) as often as necessary to cover a given 
surface. Would be (slightly) faster but less memory heavy. Condition is 
that the surface is not too bumpy however. Iirc, method introduced 20 
years ago by Gilles Tran and Josh English.

> 
> Of course, this is another attempt at POVghanistan... starting with 
> public parks in cities on mostly flat terrain such als Herat or Mazar-e 
> Sharif (less difficult to code than mountainous Kabul - and also more 
> early "eye candy" for the interested public, such as the famous Timurid 
> mosques), and, most important, for the time being, not placed onto an 
> actual planetary sphere.
> 

Of course!

-- 
Thomas

Post a reply to this message

On 16.11.19 08:37, Thomas de Groot wrote:

> Alternatively, you can use a patch: one single parsed square metre, 
> copied (rotated & translated) as often as necessary to cover a given 
> surface. Would be (slightly) faster but less memory heavy. Condition is 
> that the surface is not too bumpy however. Iirc, method introduced 20 
> years ago by Gilles Tran and Josh English.

Yes, I've heard about it... this would be convenient for flat lawns 
inside cities, but in more rugged terrain, I'll have to use fully parsed 
areas.

Meanwhile, I reduced the ambient value of the grass to 0.5 (original was 
1) and rendered a series with different grass density values:

Image #1: "Insect view" (5 cms above ground) at the southern edge of the 
patch, density 1 (25,000 grass blades per square metre)

Image #2: "Bird's view" (4 metres above ground) showing the entire 4 by 
3 metres patch, density 1

Image #3: same as #1, density 0.5 - still credible as temperate oceanic 
greenery (if I want to model some places in Cologne rather than 
POVghanistan)

Image #4: same as #2, density 0.5

Image #5: same as #1, density 0.1 - Vahur Krouverk's original density

Image #6: same as #2, density 0.1

Image #7: same as #1, density 0.01 - meagre semi-desert goat pasture! 
Welcome to Afghanistan!

Image #8: same as #2, density 0.01

Next step will be radiosity...

> 
>>
>> Of course, this is another attempt at POVghanistan... starting with 
>> public parks in cities on mostly flat terrain such als Herat or 
>> Mazar-e Sharif (less difficult to code than mountainous Kabul - and 
>> also more early "eye candy" for the interested public, such as the 
>> famous Timurid mosques), and, most important, for the time being, not 
>> placed onto an actual planetary sphere.
>>
> 
> Of course!

After 25 years of mostly day-dreaming about Khyberspace, I now feel 
ready to take on the enterprise to do it actually! Very possible that I 
now seriously look for CG/3D-enthusiastic Afghans on the Internet 
(probably younger than me) to join in the task of building Khyberspace - 
not necessarily with POV-Ray, and also not only pre-1978 Afghanistan, 
but also the futuristic "Afghatopia" mode!

See you in Khyberspace!

Yadgar

Post a reply to this message

Attachments:
Download '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 18 - insect view, density 1.jpg' (303 KB) Download '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 19 - bird view, density 1.jpg' (175 KB) Download '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 7 - insect view, density 0.5.jpg' (299 KB) Download '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 20 - bird view, density 0.5.jpg' (179 KB) Download '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 14 - insect view, density 0.1.jpg' (277 KB) Download '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 9 - bird view, density 0.1.jpg' (197 KB) Download '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 17 - insect view, density 0.01.jpg' (153 KB) Download '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 12 - bird view, density 0.01.jpg' (118 KB)

Preview of image '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 18 - insect view, density 1.jpg'

Preview of image '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 19 - bird view, density 1.jpg'

Preview of image '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 7 - insect view, density 0.5.jpg'

Preview of image '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 20 - bird view, density 0.5.jpg'

Preview of image '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 14 - insect view, density 0.1.jpg'

Preview of image '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 9 - bird view, density 0.1.jpg'

Preview of image '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 17 - insect view, density 0.01.jpg'

Preview of image '2019-11-16 modified vahur krouverk's grass, take 12 - bird view, density 0.01.jpg'

Op 16/11/2019 om 19:38 schreef Jörg "Yadgar" Bleimann:
> On 16.11.19 08:37, Thomas de Groot wrote:
> 
>> Alternatively, you can use a patch: one single parsed square metre, 
>> copied (rotated & translated) as often as necessary to cover a given 
>> surface. Would be (slightly) faster but less memory heavy. Condition 
>> is that the surface is not too bumpy however. Iirc, method introduced 
>> 20 years ago by Gilles Tran and Josh English.
> 
> Yes, I've heard about it... this would be convenient for flat lawns 
> inside cities, but in more rugged terrain, I'll have to use fully parsed 
> areas.
> 
> Meanwhile, I reduced the ambient value of the grass to 0.5 (original was 
> 1) and rendered a series with different grass density values:
> 
> Image #1: "Insect view" (5 cms above ground) at the southern edge of the 
> patch, density 1 (25,000 grass blades per square metre)
> 
> Image #2: "Bird's view" (4 metres above ground) showing the entire 4 by 
> 3 metres patch, density 1
> 
> Image #3: same as #1, density 0.5 - still credible as temperate oceanic 
> greenery (if I want to model some places in Cologne rather than 
> POVghanistan)
> 
> Image #4: same as #2, density 0.5
> 
> Image #5: same as #1, density 0.1 - Vahur Krouverk's original density
> 
> Image #6: same as #2, density 0.1
> 
> Image #7: same as #1, density 0.01 - meagre semi-desert goat pasture! 
> Welcome to Afghanistan!
> 
> Image #8: same as #2, density 0.01

Looking good. With the lower densities, I would probably expect more 
clumping of the grass blades. I don't know if Vahur Krouverk's patch 
provides for that possibility though. Otherwise you will need to add it.

> 
> Next step will be radiosity...

yep.

> 
>>
>>>
>>> Of course, this is another attempt at POVghanistan... starting with 
>>> public parks in cities on mostly flat terrain such als Herat or 
>>> Mazar-e Sharif (less difficult to code than mountainous Kabul - and 
>>> also more early "eye candy" for the interested public, such as the 
>>> famous Timurid mosques), and, most important, for the time being, not 
>>> placed onto an actual planetary sphere.
>>>
>>
>> Of course!
> 
> After 25 years of mostly day-dreaming about Khyberspace, I now feel 
> ready to take on the enterprise to do it actually! Very possible that I 
> now seriously look for CG/3D-enthusiastic Afghans on the Internet 
> (probably younger than me) to join in the task of building Khyberspace - 
> not necessarily with POV-Ray, and also not only pre-1978 Afghanistan, 
> but also the futuristic "Afghatopia" mode!
> 

I admire your dedication. I'll stay tuned to Radio Kabul. :-)

-- 
Thomas

Post a reply to this message

Jörg "Yadgar" Bleimann wrote on 16/11/2019 19:38:
> On 16.11.19 08:37, Thomas de Groot wrote:
> 
>> Alternatively, you can use a patch: one single parsed square metre, 
>> copied (rotated & translated) as often as necessary to cover a given 
>> surface. Would be (slightly) faster but less memory heavy. Condition 
>> is that the surface is not too bumpy however. Iirc, method introduced 
>> 20 years ago by Gilles Tran and Josh English.
> 
> Yes, I've heard about it... this would be convenient for flat lawns 
> inside cities, but in more rugged terrain, I'll have to use fully parsed 
> areas.
> 
> Meanwhile, I reduced the ambient value of the grass to 0.5 (original was 
> 1) and rendered a series with different grass density values:
> 
> Image #1: "Insect view" (5 cms above ground) at the southern edge of the 
> patch, density 1 (25,000 grass blades per square metre)
> 
> Image #2: "Bird's view" (4 metres above ground) showing the entire 4 by 
> 3 metres patch, density 1
> 
> Image #3: same as #1, density 0.5 - still credible as temperate oceanic 
> greenery (if I want to model some places in Cologne rather than 
> POVghanistan)
> 
> Image #4: same as #2, density 0.5
> 
> Image #5: same as #1, density 0.1 - Vahur Krouverk's original density
> 
> Image #6: same as #2, density 0.1
> 
> Image #7: same as #1, density 0.01 - meagre semi-desert goat pasture! 
> Welcome to Afghanistan!
> 
> Image #8: same as #2, density 0.01
> 
> Next step will be radiosity...
> 
>>
>>>
>>> Of course, this is another attempt at POVghanistan... starting with 
>>> public parks in cities on mostly flat terrain such als Herat or 
>>> Mazar-e Sharif (less difficult to code than mountainous Kabul - and 
>>> also more early "eye candy" for the interested public, such as the 
>>> famous Timurid mosques), and, most important, for the time being, not 
>>> placed onto an actual planetary sphere.
>>>
>>
>> Of course!
> 
> After 25 years of mostly day-dreaming about Khyberspace, I now feel 
> ready to take on the enterprise to do it actually! Very possible that I 
> now seriously look for CG/3D-enthusiastic Afghans on the Internet 
> (probably younger than me) to join in the task of building Khyberspace - 
> not necessarily with POV-Ray, and also not only pre-1978 Afghanistan, 
> but also the futuristic "Afghatopia" mode!
> 
> See you in Khyberspace!
> 
> Yadgar
> 

I like the results. With an appropriate terrain the grass will looks 
very good.

Paolo

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Hi(gh)!

On 17.11.19 08:27, Thomas de Groot wrote:

> yep.

Meanwhile, I did two radiosity scenes (at density = 1), see attachments! 
It's still very basic radiosity, I will improve it soon...

> I admire your dedication. I'll stay tuned to Radio Kabul. :-)

But don't expect too much - modeling places from afar, not to mention an 
entire country, with only photos and low-accuracy maps as templates, is 
a titanic task, modeling places from afar as they looked 50 years ago is 
practically impossible! Especially with such undeveloped places like 
Afghanistan - for Cologne, I have cadastral maps at 1:500 (!), while in 
Afghanistan I doubt that such maps ever existed, surely not for the 
early 1970s, and even cadastral maps showing the present-day situation, 
if they exist at all, most likely would be treated as a state secret, 
which means absolutely out of reach.

So even when it comes to the very conception of Khyberspace, I probably 
have to re-think the whole project, and - though I always wanted to 
avoid meddling with present-day Afghanistan, with all that destruction, 
mass displacements, military infrastructure, unchecked urban sprawl and 
cheap tacky consumer stuff flooding the country  - have to start with 
the template sources practically available both digital and printed, and 
the overwhelming majority of them is post-2001, so any representation of 
Afghanistan in Khyberspace will have to be a blend of the present-day 
situation, extrapolated back to 1970 wherever possible (but in many 
cases this will have to be left to artistic license!) and the few actual 
sources.

No, Khyberspace will not be able to present an authentic "Hippie 
Afghanistan", but merely an artificial product of my presuppositions 
and, yes, even psychological projections, intermingled with hard 
evidence. Same goes of course for the "Afghatopia 2050" mode...

For the early 1970s, I probably will have to rely mainly on printed 
sources, such as the publications from the Center for Afghanistan 
Studies at the University of Nebraska or the famous German-spoken 
"Afghanistan Journal" (which, by the way, contains numerous groundplan 
shapes of historic landmark buildings like Herat's Friday Mosque).

Vahur Krouverk's grass script inspired me to start with park lawns in 
Afghan cities like Herat - but with Herat, I soon found out that in the 
1970s, the neat clean park in front of the Friday Mosque which is shown 
for example here: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mosque_of_Herat#/media/File:Friday_Mosque_in_Herat,_Afghanistan.jpg

simply did not exist at all - there was only a wide untended, partially 
swampy meadow!

So I'm torn between two options - of course the park is nicer and more 
interesting to render than that ugly hippie-age bog (and of course there 
are much more and much better pictures of it on the web). Do I want to 
create a beautiful or an authentic Khyberspace? And, on a more 
philosophical level: what means "authenticity" when sources are scarce 
and, at least with me, no personal experience can be built upon?

Still, see you in Khyberspace!

Yadgar

Post a reply to this message

On 11/18/19 9:32 AM, Jörg "Yadgar" Bleimann wrote:

> 
> No, Khyberspace will not be able to present an authentic "Hippie 
> Afghanistan", but merely an artificial product of my presuppositions 
> and, yes, even psychological projections, intermingled with hard 
> evidence. Same goes of course for the "Afghatopia 2050" mode...

But isn't that what all artists do?
Even photographers are creating an artificial representation of their 
subject by selectively cropping out what they don't want you to see.

I wouldn't worry about it.  You make your world.

Actually, I was recently thinking about complaining that we haven't seen 
a Povghanistan update in quite a while.

-- 
dik
Rendered 24,806,476,800 of 49,882,521,600 pixels (49%)

Post a reply to this message

Op 18/11/2019 om 15:32 schreef Jörg "Yadgar" Bleimann:
> [snip]

> So I'm torn between two options - of course the park is nicer and more 
> interesting to render than that ugly hippie-age bog (and of course there 
> are much more and much better pictures of it on the web). Do I want to 
> create a beautiful or an authentic Khyberspace? And, on a more 
> philosophical level: what means "authenticity" when sources are scarce 
> and, at least with me, no personal experience can be built upon?
> 
> Still, see you in Khyberspace!
> 
> Yadgar
> 

I think you should stick with your "dreamed" Afghanistan, using 
"reality" (and real scenes/objects) only as a template. You did not 
expect the real "swampy bog"? So, just ignore it and create your lawn in 
place of it. I believe Khyberspace is about that, and not about the 
dirty reality. However, just my two cents of course. :-)

-- 
Thomas

Post a reply to this message

Clumping is the way to go I think. On any grass scenes I have created I would
create a clump of grass (maybe 20 blades) over a small area of a few square
centimeters. (Often I would create an array of clumps with randomisation)

Then repeat the clumps over the terrain, the spacing can then be larger between
'blades' but allows for rougher terrain.

Pretty sure the macro for this grass is in the binaries section on the site if
you want to try it out.

Post a reply to this message

Attachments:
Download 'tree.png' (3318 KB)

Preview of image 'tree.png'

"s.day" <s.d### [at] uelacuk> wrote:

> Pretty sure the macro for this grass is in the binaries section on the site if
> you want to try it out.

Your file can be found here -
http://news.povray.org/povray.binaries.scene-files/thread/%3Cweb.54862a4ae69dc92b94986c380%40news.povray.org%3E/?ttop=4
22681&toff=50
..

I want to point to another great grass scene.

Back in 2006 there was the last round of the old IRTC competition with
'complexity' as the topic. The results weren't published, but the entries were
collected together with some sources (
http://ftp.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/accepted/ ).
One phantastic scene is 'Grassland' by Isaac Kulka.

His image consits of four seperate images (sky, background, mesoground and
foreground.
He uses clumps of grass and separate grass leaves.


Norbert Kern

Post a reply to this message

Attachments:
Download 'grassland_foreground.jpg' (948 KB)

Preview of image 'grassland_foreground.jpg'

Op 22/11/2019 om 14:46 schreef Norbert Kern:
> "s.day" <s.d### [at] uelacuk> wrote:
> 
>> Pretty sure the macro for this grass is in the binaries section on the site if
>> you want to try it out.
> 
> Your file can be found here -
>
http://news.povray.org/povray.binaries.scene-files/thread/%3Cweb.54862a4ae69dc92b94986c380%40news.povray.org%3E/?ttop=4
> 22681&toff=50
> ..
> 
> I want to point to another great grass scene.
> 
> Back in 2006 there was the last round of the old IRTC competition with
> 'complexity' as the topic. The results weren't published, but the entries were
> collected together with some sources (
> http://ftp.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/accepted/ ).
> One phantastic scene is 'Grassland' by Isaac Kulka.
> 
> His image consits of four seperate images (sky, background, mesoground and
> foreground.
> He uses clumps of grass and separate grass leaves.
> 
> 

Thanks indeed for that Kulka scene reminder, Norbert. Great stuff!

-- 
Thomas

Post a reply to this message

On 11/22/19 4:27 AM, s.day wrote:
> Clumping is the way to go I think. On any grass scenes I have created I would
> create a clump of grass (maybe 20 blades) over a small area of a few square
> centimeters. (Often I would create an array of clumps with randomisation)
> 
> Then repeat the clumps over the terrain, the spacing can then be larger between
> 'blades' but allows for rougher terrain.
> 
> Pretty sure the macro for this grass is in the binaries section on the site if
> you want to try it out.
> 
An amazing image. Improved? My minds eye thinks you've added additional 
plants & flowers over the version previously posted? I also don't recall 
being able to see inside the tree's cavity as well - but maybe that's 
positioning of the image on my low-ish quality monitors.

Bill P.

Post a reply to this message

On 11/22/19 8:46 AM, Norbert Kern wrote:
> "s.day" <s.d### [at] uelacuk> wrote:
> 
...
> 
> I want to point to another great grass scene.
> 
> Back in 2006 there was the last round of the old IRTC competition with
...
> One phantastic scene is 'Grassland' by Isaac Kulka.
> 
> His image consits of four seperate images (sky, background, mesoground and
> foreground.
> He uses clumps of grass and separate grass leaves.
> 

Thanks for posting. An effective, affecting image.

Bill P.

Post a reply to this message

William F Pokorny <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:

> An amazing image. Improved? My minds eye thinks you've added additional
> plants & flowers over the version previously posted? I also don't recall
> being able to see inside the tree's cavity as well - but maybe that's
> positioning of the image on my low-ish quality monitors.
>
> Bill P.

Thanks Bill, your memory/powers of observation are working well. Yes, I rendered
it at a higher resolution a while back (unfortunately the only POV'ing I have
done in a long time) and decided to fix a problem Norbert highlighted with the
original scene by adding some more flowers to the top left of the image.

Post a reply to this message

hi,

"s.day" <s.d### [at] uelacuk> wrote:
> William F Pokorny <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
>
> > An amazing image. Improved? My minds eye thinks you've added additional
> > plants & flowers over the version previously posted? I also don't recall
> > being able to see inside the tree's cavity as well - but maybe that's
> > positioning of the image on my low-ish quality monitors.
> >
> > Bill P.
>
> Thanks Bill, your memory/powers of observation are working well. Yes, I rendered
> it at a higher resolution a while back (unfortunately the only POV'ing I have
> done in a long time) and decided to fix a problem Norbert highlighted with the
> original scene by adding some more flowers to the top left of the image.

I cannot remember seeing this image before, but agree with BP, amazing.  the
bark makes me think 'beech'.

(the only niggle (for me :-)), I think the critter should not be .. naked.  a
webbing cum tool belt perhaps)


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

Le 2019-11-23 à 07:01, William F Pokorny a écrit :
> On 11/22/19 4:27 AM, s.day wrote:
>> Clumping is the way to go I think. On any grass scenes I have created 
>> I would
>> create a clump of grass (maybe 20 blades) over a small area of a few 
>> square
>> centimeters. (Often I would create an array of clumps with randomisation)
>>
>> Then repeat the clumps over the terrain, the spacing can then be 
>> larger between
>> 'blades' but allows for rougher terrain.
>>
>> Pretty sure the macro for this grass is in the binaries section on the 
>> site if
>> you want to try it out.
>>
> An amazing image. Improved? My minds eye thinks you've added additional 
> plants & flowers over the version previously posted? I also don't recall 
> being able to see inside the tree's cavity as well - but maybe that's 
> positioning of the image on my low-ish quality monitors.
> 
> Bill P.

When I was using my old CRT monitor, the cavity did not show any detail 
in that cavity, but modern monitors make them quite visible.

Post a reply to this message

"Norbert Kern" <nor### [at] t-onlinede> wrote:
> "s.day" <s.d### [at] uelacuk> wrote:
>
> > Pretty sure the macro for this grass is in the binaries section on the site if
> > you want to try it out.
>
> Your file can be found here -
>
http://news.povray.org/povray.binaries.scene-files/thread/%3Cweb.54862a4ae69dc92b94986c380%40news.povray.org%3E/?ttop
=4
> 22681&toff=50
> ..
>
> I want to point to another great grass scene.
>
> Back in 2006 there was the last round of the old IRTC competition with
> 'complexity' as the topic. The results weren't published, but the entries were
> collected together with some sources (
> http://ftp.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/accepted/ ).
> One phantastic scene is 'Grassland' by Isaac Kulka.
>
> His image consits of four seperate images (sky, background, mesoground and
> foreground.
> He uses clumps of grass and separate grass leaves.
>
>
> Norbert Kern

like.

Post a reply to this message