Hi folks,

I am re-creating one of the Mississippi paddle-wheel steamboats and
invite everyone who's inter, to join.

If we have artists here in this group who are good in re-creating
persons from the era 1850 to 1870 (white Americans, native Americans,
black Americans), then feel free to create a number of persons. I self
don't have the software required for such. The humans should measure
around 1.70 units (meters) tall.

Animals (horses, dogs, chickens, donkeys, pigs) are welcome, too.

Eventually I will have the cabins ready for anyone, who can re-create
rooms of that time period and wants to join. I then will publish the
room dimensions and types here.

Steam is needed.   :-)

I self will do the entire outside of the steamboat, and also create
later on all textures for the ship's outside.


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Le 18-03-21 à 23:16, Sven Littkowski a écrit :
> Hi folks,
> 
> I am re-creating one of the Mississippi paddle-wheel steamboats and
> invite everyone who's inter, to join.
> 
> If we have artists here in this group who are good in re-creating
> persons from the era 1850 to 1870 (white Americans, native Americans,
> black Americans), then feel free to create a number of persons. I self
> don't have the software required for such. The humans should measure
> around 1.70 units (meters) tall.
> 
> Animals (horses, dogs, chickens, donkeys, pigs) are welcome, too.
> 
> Eventually I will have the cabins ready for anyone, who can re-create
> rooms of that time period and wants to join. I then will publish the
> room dimensions and types here.
> 
> Steam is needed.   :-)
> 
> I self will do the entire outside of the steamboat, and also create
> later on all textures for the ship's outside.
> 
> 
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Something seems not correct with your ship's base : I don't think that 
there ever was any ship with both side AND rear wheel. If there where 
some, they must have been prety rare.

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Update: the main deck sees a good progress.


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Yes, you are right - I have no knowledge, too, of any steamer who had 3
wheels. But then again, fantasy and creativity is the key to more fun!
This one I am "building", has 3 wheels! :-)

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On 23-3-2018 5:02, Sven Littkowski wrote:
> Yes, you are right - I have no knowledge, too, of any steamer who had 3
> wheels. But then again, fantasy and creativity is the key to more fun!
> This one I am "building", has 3 wheels! :-)
> 

Steampunk then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steampunk

-- 
Thomas

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Hmmm, "punk" has a negative association with me, but you still might be
correct with this term.

Have you ever worked with Poser? I want to populate the scenery. I have
so many ideas.But I have no clue, how to create the clothing of the
1850s with Poser. I want even figures like Huckleberry Finn and others
which were typical for those years on and around the Mississippi.

I also want to create these huge rafts with houses on them. Just a real
Mississippi scene, basically. Let's see how far I will reach.

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Update. some "water test".


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On 03/21/2018 11:16 PM, Sven Littkowski wrote:
> If we have artists here in this group who are good in re-creating
> persons from the era 1850 to 1870 (white Americans, native Americans,
> black Americans), then feel free to create a number of persons.

Don't forget Chinese Americans.  They helped build the western portion 
of the transcontinental railroad during the 1860s.

There is a tricky question of historical accuracy.  The lower 
Mississippi Valley was violently segregated by race until the 1960s. 
The period you are aiming at was a tumultuous period in American 
history, and at the root was race-based slavery.

In 1853, black Americans were stripped of their citizenship by the 
Supreme Court.  Even in states where slavery was already illegal, a free 
black person could be kidnapped and sold down south, and there would no 
legal recourse.

 From 1861 to 1865, the USA fell into a vicious civil war that dwarfed 
the violence seen in Latin America during the 20th century.  Despite 
what history textbooks may tell us, the issue was slavery.

In 1865, slavery was outlawed nationwide.  However, it wasn't until 1868 
that black Americans regained their citizenship, and not until 1870 that 
they were guaranteed the right to vote.  Meanwhile violence against 
blacks continued.  In 1865 and 1866, southern states passed 
discriminatory laws, and in 1896, racial segregation was upheld legally 
by the Supreme Court.  The last of the discriminatory laws was not 
overturned until 1967.

And of course, all during the 19th century, it was open season on Native 
Americans.  They, like blacks, were viewed by most whites as subhuman 
savages with no human rights.  Most of them were forcibly driven into 
the western plains decades before 1850 (Google Trail of Tears), and it 
was unlikely that you would find one around the lower Mississippi to 
board the boat.

Given this history, please keep in mind what the seating arrangements 
must have looked like during this period--unless historical accuracy is 
not your goal.

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Thanks for the information. Most was known already, but a few things
were new. And yes - of course I want authentic passengers and staff. But
tell me, how to create them? Any advises?

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On 24/03/2018 01:49, Sven Littkowski wrote:
> Thanks for the information. Most was known already, but a few things
> were new. And yes - of course I want authentic passengers and staff. But
> tell me, how to create them? Any advises?
> 

Daz Studio is a free alternative to Poser. I don't know about its 
clothing capabilities. But there are quite a few sites that you can 
download free props from.

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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Hey, that's a good idea - I did not know about it! Thanks. Will check
right away!!!   :-D

Do you have any idea, how I can get a ship's boat? I am looking for a
number of 1850s items to enrich the scene.

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UPDATE

Having made a small test-run for the transport items that will be, later
on, inside and around the yellow storage area. Cotton bales and hay
bales for now, but more to come.


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On 24/03/2018 20:16, Sven Littkowski wrote:
> Hey, that's a good idea - I did not know about it! Thanks. Will check
> right away!!!   :-D
> 

Be warned, it is a time sink.

> Do you have any idea, how I can get a ship's boat? I am looking for a
> number of 1850s items to enrich the scene.
> 

Not specifically 1850's.
Renderosity is a good site.

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/freestuff/

Google 3D models. I lost a lot of links due to time and my last system 
crash.


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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On 24-3-2018 21:18, Sven Littkowski wrote:
> UPDATE
> 
> Having made a small test-run for the transport items that will be, later
> on, inside and around the yellow storage area. Cotton bales and hay
> bales for now, but more to come.
> 

For later correction: the bales intersect the ship.

-- 
Thomas

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Sven Littkowski <I### [at] SvenLittkowskiname> wrote:
> UPDATE
>
> Having made a small test-run for the transport items that will be, later
> on, inside and around the yellow storage area. Cotton bales and hay
> bales for now, but more to come.
>
>
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That's looking pretty cool so far    :)
For some reason, the way / method it got posted, it doesn't show up as an
in-line image, and it doesn't get listed in the image digest either   :(

Just curious - is it mathematically linked / parameterized so that you can
animate it?

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Yes, I know. The deck at that location goes upwards. But the foreship
locations where the bales are stored (later on), are fully horizontal.
There won't be any cutting. :-)

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Yes, with a little extra work, the wheels and the entire ship can be
animated. But that's not on my list for now. That comes later, much
later. :-)

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On 27-3-2018 1:12, Sven Littkowski wrote:
> Yes, I know. The deck at that location goes upwards. But the foreship
> locations where the bales are stored (later on), are fully horizontal.
> There won't be any cutting. :-)
> 

If you use the trace() function for positioning the bales on the deck, 
you will avoid such problems.

http://wiki.povray.org/content/Reference:Vector_Expressions#Functions


-- 
Thomas

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Thanks. I heard about that function, but have problems to handle it.

But never mind, I have all coordinates of the entire scene in my mind. I
find it difficult to learn to work with so-called WYSIWYG editors, I
hand-code everything. :-)

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UPDATE

The progress continues, and the main deck becomes more and more complete...



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Le 18-03-27 à 05:28, Sven Littkowski a écrit :
> Thanks. I heard about that function, but have problems to handle it.
> 
> But never mind, I have all coordinates of the entire scene in my mind. I
> find it difficult to learn to work with so-called WYSIWYG editors, I
> hand-code everything. :-)
> 
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You mostly need to remenber that trace(object, start, direction) use a 
start location and a direction. If you change the last value, you'll 
trace in different directions.

trace(Deck, <PosX, 1000, PosZ>, -y)

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On 27/03/2018 20:04, Alain wrote:
> Le 18-03-27 à 05:28, Sven Littkowski a écrit :
>> Thanks. I heard about that function, but have problems to handle it.
>>
>> But never mind, I have all coordinates of the entire scene in my mind. I
>> find it difficult to learn to work with so-called WYSIWYG editors, I
>> hand-code everything. :-)
>>
>> ---
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>>
> 
> You mostly need to remenber that trace(object, start, direction) use a 
> start location and a direction. If you change the last value, you'll 
> trace in different directions.
> 
> trace(Deck, <PosX, 1000, PosZ>, -y)


Even I can use it. ;-)

Use PosX, PosZ to describe a grid with a loop. And check that
   (vlength (Norm)!=0) and do some stuff


Hmm! I had an extra variable:

#declare Inter = trace (Trace_object_,< Pos_x, Pos_y, Pos_z >, z, Norm);

#if (vlength (Norm)!=0)


Then do some stuff.

#end


Alain probably knows and uses a more efficient way of coding it than I 
do/can.


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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Thanks Alain and Stephen.   :-)

The item is what is to be checked for (like the name of a Declare union,
I would assume).

The first coordinate is from where the search ray is starting?

The second coordinate is towards which direction (destination) the
search ray is heading?

Norm contains the coordinates of a hit?


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On 28/03/2018 04:30, Sven Littkowski wrote:
> Thanks Alain and Stephen.   :-)
> 
> The item is what is to be checked for (like the name of a Declare union,
> I would assume).
> 
> The first coordinate is from where the search ray is starting?
> 
> The second coordinate is towards which direction (destination) the
> search ray is heading?
> 
> Norm contains the coordinates of a hit?
> 
> 

I think that it a good idea to quote the bit of code that you are 
talking about.
Norm is the vector of the normal if the trace ray hits the target. So we 
test to see if the vector is not zero. That means we have a hit. If Norm 
is zero then the ray missed.

I have an test scene from when I was learning to use trace() that is 
self contained. Firing arrows at a mesh target. A study for Saint 
Sebastian. I will post it after cleaning up the Bishop3D workarounds.



-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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I once had Bishop 3D, too. In fact, I was been one of the beta testers,
and thus got the unlock code free of cost.

But then, my hard drive crashed, and I lost all programs and e-mails.
Now I cannot find the Brazilian developer anymore to ask him to re-issue
me my unlock code. I am not joking, I was really one of the beta testers.

Bishop 3D is a great software. Just it doesn't like functions. But all
the shapes - it can handle them very well!

---------------------

Thanks for your TRACE help! :-D

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On 28/03/2018 14:07, Sven Littkowski wrote:
> I once had Bishop 3D, too. In fact, I was been one of the beta testers,
> and thus got the unlock code free of cost.
> 
> But then, my hard drive crashed, and I lost all programs and e-mails.
> Now I cannot find the Brazilian developer anymore to ask him to re-issue
> me my unlock code. I am not joking, I was really one of the beta testers.
> 

I remember. You were building an underwater base.
Actually if you go back on the website. You will find a registration key 
as Hugo made it freeware.
Drat! The site has gone but you can get it via the wayback machine.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160122202116/http://bishop3d.com/download.htm



> Bishop 3D is a great software. Just it doesn't like functions. But all
> the shapes - it can handle them very well!
> 

StephenS developed quite a few techniques for workarounds by using the 
Raw Code plugin. We even managed to get screen.inc to work in B3D


-
> 
> Thanks for your TRACE help! :-D
> 
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Regards
     Stephen

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Wow, I did not knew about these "latest" developments! You can see,
since how long I lost touch. Sad and good news in one.

I registered the software now, after all these years, thanks to you. :-)

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Le 18-03-27 à 16:33, Stephen a écrit :
> On 27/03/2018 20:04, Alain wrote:
>> Le 18-03-27 à 05:28, Sven Littkowski a écrit :
>>> Thanks. I heard about that function, but have problems to handle it.
>>>
>>> But never mind, I have all coordinates of the entire scene in my mind. I
>>> find it difficult to learn to work with so-called WYSIWYG editors, I
>>> hand-code everything. :-)
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Diese E-Mail wurde von AVG auf Viren geprüft.
>>> http://www.avg.com
>>>
>>
>> You mostly need to remenber that trace(object, start, direction) use a 
>> start location and a direction. If you change the last value, you'll 
>> trace in different directions.
>>
>> trace(Deck, <PosX, 1000, PosZ>, -y)
> 
> 
> Even I can use it. ;-)
> 
> Use PosX, PosZ to describe a grid with a loop. And check that
>    (vlength (Norm)!=0) and do some stuff
> 
> 
> Hmm! I had an extra variable:
> 
> #declare Inter = trace (Trace_object_,< Pos_x, Pos_y, Pos_z >, z, Norm);
> 
> #if (vlength (Norm)!=0)
> 
> 
> Then do some stuff.
> 
> #end
> 
> 
> Alain probably knows and uses a more efficient way of coding it than I 
> do/can.
> 
> 

If you can be reasonably sure that all your start points are over the 
target object, then, you can omit the normal parameter.
But, yes, taking the normal into account is normally preferable.

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Le 18-03-27 à 23:30, Sven Littkowski a écrit :
> Thanks Alain and Stephen.   :-)
> 
> The item is what is to be checked for (like the name of a Declare union,
> I would assume).
> 
> The first coordinate is from where the search ray is starting?
> 
> The second coordinate is towards which direction (destination) the
> search ray is heading?
> 
> Norm contains the coordinates of a hit?
> 
> 
> ---
> Diese E-Mail wurde von AVG auf Viren geprüft.
> http://www.avg.com
> 

The correct way to use trace with an arbitrary, oddly shaped, target 
object is :
#declare Normal =<0,0,0>;
#declare SurfacePoint= trace(<PosX, 1000, PosZ>, -y, Normal);
#if(vlength(Normal))
	...do your stuff...
#end

"SurfacePoint" will contain the location of the point directly under 
<PosX,1000,PosZ>, or <0,0,0> it the trace miss the object. As a 
legitimate point may be at that location, this is not a reliable way to 
know if the trace hit or not.
"SurfacePoint" contain the location that interest you.

If the trace miss the target object, Normal have a zero length. If it 
find the object, Normal contain the normal of the surface at that point 
as an a unit length vector.


Alain

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On 29/03/2018 00:19, Alain wrote:
> Le 18-03-27 à 16:33, Stephen a écrit :
>> On 27/03/2018 20:04, Alain wrote:
>>> Le 18-03-27 à 05:28, Sven Littkowski a écrit :
>>>> Thanks. I heard about that function, but have problems to handle it.
>>>>
>>>> But never mind, I have all coordinates of the entire scene in my 
>>>> mind. I
>>>> find it difficult to learn to work with so-called WYSIWYG editors, I
>>>> hand-code everything. :-)
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Diese E-Mail wurde von AVG auf Viren geprüft.
>>>> http://www.avg.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> You mostly need to remenber that trace(object, start, direction) use 
>>> a start location and a direction. If you change the last value, 
>>> you'll trace in different directions.
>>>
>>> trace(Deck, <PosX, 1000, PosZ>, -y)
>>
>>
>> Even I can use it. ;-)
>>
>> Use PosX, PosZ to describe a grid with a loop. And check that
>>    (vlength (Norm)!=0) and do some stuff
>>
>>
>> Hmm! I had an extra variable:
>>
>> #declare Inter = trace (Trace_object_,< Pos_x, Pos_y, Pos_z >, z, Norm);
>>
>> #if (vlength (Norm)!=0)
>>
>>
>> Then do some stuff.
>>
>> #end
>>
>>
>> Alain probably knows and uses a more efficient way of coding it than I 
>> do/can.
>>
>>
> 
> If you can be reasonably sure that all your start points are over the 
> target object, then, you can omit the normal parameter.
> But, yes, taking the normal into account is normally preferable.


Thanks for the tip. :-D

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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On 28/03/2018 19:01, Sven Littkowski wrote:
> Wow, I did not knew about these "latest" developments! You can see,
> since how long I lost touch. Sad and good news in one.
> 
> I registered the software now, after all these years, thanks to you. :-)
> 

And I had bun and cheese in celebration. :-)


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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"Bun and Cheese"? I thought, that was a purely Jamaican thing - they
sell it here that way. So it is a wider English thing, I recognize.
Again learned something new and absolutely important... :-D

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Thanks. I will copy the code and use it as reference for later usage.
Good help here in this group. :-)

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UPDATE

The ship has now a very beautiful main stairway at the prow, and I also
added raw versions of the decks, housings and other features to come.
Still working on the details and features of the main deck, before I can
go one deck higher and continue there.

A big problem for this project is the need of 3D persons of the American
1850s (and some animal types, too). I cannot create them by myself, and
also did not find any. I can only hope to meet someone who can create
them based on my needs. Frustrating...


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Attachments:
Download 'sl - mississippi paddle-wheel steamer - atop side.jpg' (807 KB) Download 'sl - mississippi paddle-wheel steamer - stairs.jpg' (538 KB) Download 'sl - mississippi paddle-wheel steamer - prow - side.jpg' (530 KB)

Preview of image 'sl - mississippi paddle-wheel steamer - atop side.jpg'

Preview of image 'sl - mississippi paddle-wheel steamer - stairs.jpg'

Preview of image 'sl - mississippi paddle-wheel steamer - prow - side.jpg'

I am just seeing these "fragments" or distortions, where the eagle is. I
wonder what is causing them. Could it be, using six digits after the
period point could cause this?

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On 29/03/2018 23:21, Sven Littkowski wrote:
> "Bun and Cheese"? I thought, that was a purely Jamaican thing - they
> sell it here that way. So it is a wider English thing, I recognize.
> Again learned something new and absolutely important... :-D
> 


Sorry to disappoint you, Sven. You can only get it where there are lots 
of Jamaicans, living in the area. It was one of the many things I took 
home with me from Jamaica. (I still can't cook rice and peas properly. I 
can't get the spices right.)


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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UPDATE

I almost completed the stern section of the ship. But I am not yet
applying any textures to the ship (with exception of the big painting) -
that comes as the last of all steps.


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Preview of image 'sl - mississippi paddle-wheel steamer.jpg'

UPDATE

Starting to "build" the Lancashire boilers and engines...

Frustrating:I need so much 3D humans of the 1850s and can't get them...


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Attachments:
Download 'sl - mississippi paddle-wheel steamer.png' (3996 KB) Download '2595548900_19aed8a646.jpg' (150 KB) Download 'a64803a26667823b324da4dfc7242dbd.jpg' (53 KB) Download 'boilercutaway.png' (353 KB) Download 'lancashire boiler - 1844 - 02.jpg' (17 KB) Download 'lancashire boiler - 1844 - 03.jpg' (148 KB) Download 'lancashire boiler - 1844 - 04.jpg' (76 KB) Download 'lancashire boiler - 1844 - 06.jpg' (70 KB) Download 'lancashire boiler - 1844 - 07.png' (81 KB)

Preview of image 'sl - mississippi paddle-wheel steamer.png'

Preview of image '2595548900_19aed8a646.jpg'

Preview of image 'a64803a26667823b324da4dfc7242dbd.jpg'

Preview of image 'boilercutaway.png'

Preview of image 'lancashire boiler - 1844 - 02.jpg'

Preview of image 'lancashire boiler - 1844 - 03.jpg'

Preview of image 'lancashire boiler - 1844 - 04.jpg'

Preview of image 'lancashire boiler - 1844 - 06.jpg'

Preview of image 'lancashire boiler - 1844 - 07.png'

On 3-4-2018 19:40, Sven Littkowski wrote:
> UPDATE
> 
> Starting to "build" the Lancashire boilers and engines...

Good.

> 
> Frustrating:I need so much 3D humans of the 1850s and can't get them...

Because that is a hell of a job and no mistake.

-- 
Thomas

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I know. I don't mind to create these humans by myself, but it is almost
impossible to find the 1850s props (cloth, hairstyles) for them online.

Based on what I (don't) see online, I start to believe that almost
nobody since the existence of rendering has created historic people and
uploaded them (with exceptions of those used on TV, but they are never
uploaded). People mostly use our render technologies to create sexy
babes, more or less naked, and that's all. :-(

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Am 04.04.2018 um 13:44 schrieb Sven Littkowski:
> I know. I don't mind to create these humans by myself, but it is almost
> impossible to find the 1850s props (cloth, hairstyles) for them online.

Did you check on Daz3D? I'm sure they have /something/ fitting. You'll
have to pay for the work though that was put into modelling the stuff -
while DAZ Studio is free, most of the content is not.

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On 4-4-2018 13:44, Sven Littkowski wrote:
> I know. I don't mind to create these humans by myself, but it is almost
> impossible to find the 1850s props (cloth, hairstyles) for them online.

That is why I say, a hell of a job.

> 
> Based on what I (don't) see online, I start to believe that almost
> nobody since the existence of rendering has created historic people and
> uploaded them (with exceptions of those used on TV, but they are never
> uploaded). People mostly use our render technologies to create sexy
> babes, more or less naked, and that's all. :-(
> 

the 1850's are so... 19th century! Not sexy at all. :-)

-- 
Thomas

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On 05/04/2018 07:44, Thomas de Groot wrote:
> On 4-4-2018 13:44, Sven Littkowski wrote:
>> I know. I don't mind to create these humans by myself, but it is almost
>> impossible to find the 1850s props (cloth, hairstyles) for them online.
> 
> That is why I say, a hell of a job.
> 

It might be easier to use billboards.
They have gone out of fashion.


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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On 5-4-2018 9:30, Stephen wrote:
> On 05/04/2018 07:44, Thomas de Groot wrote:
>> On 4-4-2018 13:44, Sven Littkowski wrote:
>>> I know. I don't mind to create these humans by myself, but it is almost
>>> impossible to find the 1850s props (cloth, hairstyles) for them online.
>>
>> That is why I say, a hell of a job.
>>
> 
> It might be easier to use billboards.
> They have gone out of fashion.
> 
> 

I have thought about that but you still need originals to make 
billboards of. In the end it would be much more efficient memory-wise of 
course when a large number of figures are needed.

-- 
Thomas

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UPDATE

I enabled textures, and get this result. Have to make some changes to
the textures, but otherwise feel good with them.


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Attachments:
Download 'sl - mississippi paddle-wheel steamer - midships.jpg' (1511 KB)

Preview of image 'sl - mississippi paddle-wheel steamer - midships.jpg'

I went to DAZ 3D, and also to MakeHuman, and also to Poser 3D, as well
as even to SketchUp. Nothing that can be used. I am condemned by the gods.

UPDATE
I have contracted now a 3D artist in Algeria where I get good prices,
and he will have now the headache to create those things for me (I gave
him contemporary photos and illustrations). The price is okay, and I
will get a sample before. I will be able to purchase these 3D people of
the 1850s in small batches.

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Around 100.

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If you really like that idea, I as a Third-World guy could actually send
you First-World guy a First Aid Kit, ensuring your survival in a harsh,
bitter, bun-and-cheese-less world.   ;-)

In this case, Paypal. But I would have to declare it on the outside.

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Wooowwww!!! That youn still remember that underwater base...

Yes, it was modular, I could re-use the modules over and over. The deep
ocean floor was also featuring some light posts to border the area,
illuminating the green water.

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How can I find out the angle of the surface on that location where TRACE
hits?

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