Thanks to your comments - and a bit of home work - I solved the street 
problem exposed in the thread above. I kept the single trace test for 
each house but just added a test for those houses bordering the streets 
and adjusting their height to the local street level.

The image below shows the result, with Paolo's (Philippe's) ground 
texture added too.

The code for the urbanism is posted in p.b.s-f of course (version 
2013.03.29)

Thomas

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Preview of image 'gancaloon_old city street_02.jpg'

On 29/03/2013 3:53 PM, Thomas de Groot wrote:
> The image below shows the result, with Paolo's (Philippe's) ground
> texture added too.

Better and better.

Now for the wheel tracks in the road,

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 29/03/2013 11:13 PM, Stephen wrote:
> On 29/03/2013 3:53 PM, Thomas de Groot wrote:
>> The image below shows the result, with Paolo's (Philippe's) ground
>> texture added too.
>
> Better and better.
>
> Now for the wheel tracks in the road,
>

You are taking requests? Aren't you?  ;-)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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Stephen <mca### [at] aolcom> wrote:
> On 29/03/2013 3:53 PM, Thomas de Groot wrote:

>
> Better and better.
>
> Now for the wheel tracks in the road,
>

I second that--on both counts ;-)  Really nice, Thomas; I feel like I'm standing
in your city. (And it's all so beautifully made that the camera can apparently
be placed anywhere--wow!)

The one thing that stands out to me is that the buildings and roadway are a bit
too *clean*. (Well, very clean!) Some slight discoloration or grunge where the
building walls meet the street would really add a lot to the reality of the
scene--but I honestly don't have any idea how that could be done! It's an
interesting problem...

I'm looking forward to seeing your next image(s).

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On 30-3-2013 0:16, Stephen wrote:
>> Better and better.
>>
>> Now for the wheel tracks in the road,

Well, as you may have seen in the overview scenes of the Gancaloon 
landscape, the roads are /eroded/ into the height_field. In the past, I 
have done wheel tracks in a similar way for several of my scenes.

As you can imagine, the street surfaces will remain in the simple state 
they are in now, as most of the time more detail is not needed. However, 
for close up views I intend to build locally more elaborate street 
surfaces, with cobbles and all, and - of course - wheel tracks.

>>
>
> You are taking requests? Aren't you?  ;-)
>

Not so much /requests/ as /challenges/ ;-) They tickle my imagination...

Thomas

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On 30-3-2013 2:20, Kenneth wrote:
> Stephen <mca### [at] aolcom> wrote:
>> On 29/03/2013 3:53 PM, Thomas de Groot wrote:
>
>>
>> Better and better.
>>
>> Now for the wheel tracks in the road,
>>
>
> I second that--on both counts ;-)  Really nice, Thomas; I feel like I'm standing
> in your city. (And it's all so beautifully made that the camera can apparently
> be placed anywhere--wow!)

Thank you indeed. Yes, I am surprised myself at how well the camera can 
take the place of a spectator. It is all turning out better than I had 
expected when I started with this piece of code a couple of weeks ago.

>
> The one thing that stands out to me is that the buildings and roadway are a bit
> too *clean*. (Well, very clean!) Some slight discoloration or grunge where the
> building walls meet the street would really add a lot to the reality of the
> scene--but I honestly don't have any idea how that could be done! It's an
> interesting problem...

Of course :-)

As far as the street surface is concerned, the solution is easy with a 
more complex texture. For the buildings, if you look up some of my other 
Gancaloon scenes, I have done that kind of texturing, mostly by using 
Sean Day's textures as a basis. They consist of complex layers using 
slope and altitude. At present, the buildings are using a proximity 
macro texture which looks well from some distance but is not too 
convincing at close range. Also, I need to tweak the parameters some 
more to see if I can improve the results. We shall see. There is work to 
do still ;-)

>
> I'm looking forward to seeing your next image(s).

Thanks. They will appear eventually...

Thomas

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Sometimes it is nice to be a bird ;-)

Thomas

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Attachments:
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Preview of image 'gancaloon_old city street_02.jpg'

On 30/03/2013 12:24 PM, Thomas de Groot wrote:
> Sometimes it is nice to be a bird ;-)
>

A very lonely bird. :-)
The town looks so weird without people. I think that is a complement as 
it looks so real.


-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 30-3-2013 13:38, Stephen wrote:
> A very lonely bird. :-)
> The town looks so weird without people. I think that is a complement as
> it looks so real.

The last bird on Earth... Aliens kidnapped all living animals, including 
humans ;-)

Peopling this town is a whole different kettle of fish.

Thomas

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On 30/03/2013 3:04 PM, Thomas de Groot wrote:
> On 30-3-2013 13:38, Stephen wrote:
>> A very lonely bird. :-)
>> The town looks so weird without people. I think that is a complement as
>> it looks so real.
>
> The last bird on Earth... Aliens kidnapped all living animals, including
> humans ;-)

The last man on Earth sat alone in a room. There was a knock on the door...

"Knock", written by Fredric Brown,

>
> Peopling this town is a whole different kettle of fish.
>

Indeed. Good luck.


-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 30-3-2013 16:26, Stephen wrote:
> On 30/03/2013 3:04 PM, Thomas de Groot wrote:
>> On 30-3-2013 13:38, Stephen wrote:
>>> A very lonely bird. :-)
>>> The town looks so weird without people. I think that is a complement as
>>> it looks so real.
>>
>> The last bird on Earth... Aliens kidnapped all living animals, including
>> humans ;-)
>
> The last man on Earth sat alone in a room. There was a knock on the door...
>
> "Knock", written by Fredric Brown,

LOL, yes I remember that one indeed.

Thomas

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Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> ...I have done that kind of texturing, mostly by using
> Sean Day's textures as a basis. They consist of complex layers using
> slope and altitude. At present, the buildings are using a proximity
> macro texture...
>

Both of those techniques sound intriguing indeed. (I have not yet played around
with proximity textures; they seem to be quite amazing.) Do you have a link to
Sean Day's slope/altitide stuff? I would like to take a look at it, as it
apparently solves what I assumed to be a real problem!

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Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> Sometimes it is nice to be a bird ;-)
>
> Thomas
Great work.
With the birdview I noticed that the beach is a regular line abd the water is a
regular brown peasoup. Maybe some enhancements.
Greetings
Bert

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On 30-3-2013 16:54, Kenneth wrote:
> Both of those techniques sound intriguing indeed. (I have not yet played around
> with proximity textures; they seem to be quite amazing.) Do you have a link to
> Sean Day's slope/altitide stuff? I would like to take a look at it, as it
> apparently solves what I assumed to be a real problem!
>
As a basis I started with Sean Day's 
http://www.irtc.org/stills/2006-08-31.html and in particular the wall 
textures.

Proximity patterns exist in different flavours. I am aware of Patina2 by 
Rune Johansen/James Coons (2003/2004); df3prox-0.96 by Edouard Poor 
(2010); fastprox02 and NestProx by Samuel Benge (2009 & 2011). Patina2 
is not a /real/ proximity pattern in the sense of the other two. Between 
Sam's and Edouard's, my slightly higher preference goes to Edouard's.

Patina2 was posted by James A. Coons in p.b.s-f at 30 October 2004.
Sam's can also be found in p.b.s-f but I have no exact date.
Edouard's can also be found in p.b.s-f but - again - I have no exact date.

I try to remind myself to document carefully my dowloads, but I often 
fail to do it properly... :-(

If you have trouble finding them, I can provide you with a copy, the 
authors willing of course.

Thomas

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On 31-3-2013 1:26, BertvdB wrote:
> Great work.
> With the birdview I noticed that the beach is a regular line abd the water is a
> regular brown peasoup. Maybe some enhancements.
> Greetings
> Bert
>

For the far future if ever ;-)

Thomas

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Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> On 30-3-2013 16:54, Kenneth wrote:
> > Both of those techniques sound intriguing indeed. (I have not yet played around
> > with proximity textures; they seem to be quite amazing.) Do you have a link to
> > Sean Day's slope/altitide stuff? I would like to take a look at it, as it
> > apparently solves what I assumed to be a real problem!
> >
> As a basis I started with Sean Day's
> http://www.irtc.org/stills/2006-08-31.html and in particular the wall
> textures.
>

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for the credit and link to remind me of that IRTC round. Too far back for
me to remember but I dare say I got the idea for the texture
from something by Gilles Tran (I think the slope idea came from one of his snow
scenes), I doubt I was smart enough to come up with it
myself ;-)
It is a shame the winning image of that round by Rene
Bui did not have the source code as the textures in that one are far better than
mine. (good to have something to aim for though).

Sean

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On 31-3-2013 13:09, s.day wrote:
> Hi Thomas,
>
> Thanks for the credit and link to remind me of that IRTC round. Too far back for
> me to remember but I dare say I got the idea for the texture
> from something by Gilles Tran (I think the slope idea came from one of his snow
> scenes), I doubt I was smart enough to come up with it
> myself ;-)
> It is a shame the winning image of that round by Rene
> Bui did not have the source code as the textures in that one are far better than
> mine. (good to have something to aim for though).
>

Gilles is the Master of us all indeed :-)

It looks to me as if Rene makes a strong use of image_maps as a basis 
for his textures here, with a smart layering of grime and tags, but it 
is done in a masterful way.

Thomas

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On 31-3-2013 1:26, BertvdB wrote:
> Great work.
> With the birdview I noticed that the beach is a regular line abd the water is a
> regular brown peasoup. Maybe some enhancements.

I can go on scratching my itch, but it seems better to do something 
about it ;-)

I added a little bit of turbulence to the waterline of the beach and 
flushed some more sea water into the estuary and increased the turbulence.

Not really visible here, but upstream the river turns gradually into a 
more uniform pea soup; seawards, the silt gradually sinks to the bottom.

I know: the flow should follow more the contours of the land. I don't 
know how to do that presently as the whole water media is a huge sphere, 
and I wonder how to make it interact with the height_field...

Thomas

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Preview of image 'gancaloon_river harbour overview_01.jpg'

I find your commitment to Gancaloon motivational.

I would only wish it showed a bit of DOF in the distance to look like a photo :)

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On 1-4-2013 18:32, nemesis wrote:
> I find your commitment to Gancaloon motivational.

Thanks indeed. Gancaloon is a piece of myself ;-)

>
> I would only wish it showed a bit of DOF in the distance to look like a photo :)

Yes, that is something which I keep in mind for when I have nothing else 
to do :-)

Thomas

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>Thomas de Groot  on date 30/03/2013 16.04 wrote:
> On 30-3-2013 13:38, Stephen wrote:
>> A very lonely bird. :-)
>> The town looks so weird without people. I think that is a complement as
>> it looks so real.
>
> The last bird on Earth... Aliens kidnapped all living animals, including
> humans ;-)
>
> Peopling this town is a whole different kettle of fish.
>
> Thomas
>
>
Naa, all the people are digging in Satrap's dungeons... your next code!
;-)
Paolo

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>Thomas de Groot  on date 01/04/2013 16.38 wrote:
> On 31-3-2013 1:26, BertvdB wrote:
>> Great work.
>> With the birdview I noticed that the beach is a regular line abd the
>> water is a
>> regular brown peasoup. Maybe some enhancements.
>
> I can go on scratching my itch, but it seems better to do something
> about it ;-)
>
> I added a little bit of turbulence to the waterline of the beach and
> flushed some more sea water into the estuary and increased the turbulence.
>
> Not really visible here, but upstream the river turns gradually into a
> more uniform pea soup; seawards, the silt gradually sinks to the bottom.
>
> I know: the flow should follow more the contours of the land. I don't
> know how to do that presently as the whole water media is a huge sphere,
> and I wonder how to make it interact with the height_field...
>
> Thomas
>
>
It is a breathtaking sight!
Paolo

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> I know: the flow should follow more the contours of the land. I don't
> know how to do that presently as the whole water media is a huge sphere,
> and I wonder how to make it interact with the height_field...
Perhaps carving the sphere using a difference with the height-field?

P.S. Such a city at the evening (when people back home) is full of the 
[procedural] smokes of the fires lit for the supper...

;-)
Paolo

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On 2-4-2013 9:54, Paolo Gibellini wrote:
> Naa, all the people are digging in Satrap's dungeons... your next code!
> ;-)

I am afraid that is only too true. I have escaped detection until now...

Thomas

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On 2-4-2013 10:01, Paolo Gibellini wrote:
> P.S. Such a city at the evening (when people back home) is full of the
> [procedural] smokes of the fires lit for the supper...

Oh God! You are giving me a new itch!

For the smoke you have to wait a bit, but for the sunset...

Sun colour and position controlled by the Lightsys IV system of course.

You will note that the horizon mist is not correct at all. Either I 
should tweak the fog colour, or replace it by a true media ;-)

Thomas

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Preview of image 'gancaloon_river harbour overview_02.jpg'

>Thomas de Groot  on date 02/04/2013 13.48 wrote:
> On 2-4-2013 10:01, Paolo Gibellini wrote:
>> P.S. Such a city at the evening (when people back home) is full of the
>> [procedural] smokes of the fires lit for the supper...
>
> Oh God! You are giving me a new itch!
>
> For the smoke you have to wait a bit, but for the sunset...
>
> Sun colour and position controlled by the Lightsys IV system of course.
>
> You will note that the horizon mist is not correct at all. Either I
> should tweak the fog colour, or replace it by a true media ;-)
>
> Thomas
>
My next wallpaper!

There is a magnificent light. I can imagine in a similar way the sunset 
in Santorini.
Paolo

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This project is really bearing some impressive fruit now. I love this aerial
view - good sediment effect in the river. The building arrangement is very
effective, and totally transforms the resulting images. Once you get to a
certain level of detail, there will be much mileage in finding interesting
camera angles and lighting setups!

I liked the street view you posted recently too - a totally believable solution,
it looked very natural.

I agree with other posts about smoke and focal blur. You could try placing
people procedurally too, market crowds and dock workers... also, I think some
flocks of seagulls or crows could really add some atmosphere for relatively
little effort.

You are inspiring me to get back to my city shenanigans from last year!

keep up the good work
Bill

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On 3-4-2013 15:31, Bill Pragnell wrote:
> This project is really bearing some impressive fruit now. I love this aerial
> view - good sediment effect in the river. The building arrangement is very
> effective, and totally transforms the resulting images. Once you get to a
> certain level of detail, there will be much mileage in finding interesting
> camera angles and lighting setups!

Absolutely. I am wandering around already. One thing I shall work on is 
narrowing some of the streets.

>
> I liked the street view you posted recently too - a totally believable solution,
> it looked very natural.

Yes, everything works pretty well up till now. Maybe not in all close up 
views but we shall see about that when it happens.

>
> I agree with other posts about smoke and focal blur. You could try placing
> people procedurally too, market crowds and dock workers... also, I think some
> flocks of seagulls or crows could really add some atmosphere for relatively
> little effort.

Yes, the birds, people, smoke, focal blur (in that order probably) are 
elements I have on my to do list. For the people I may consider 
billboards (although I shall have to make them first) especially for 
overviews.

>
> You are inspiring me to get back to my city shenanigans from last year!

Thanks indeed Bill. I think you made an interesting start there with 
lots of possibilities. Sometimes solutions come from unexpected corners, 
like in my macro: I was developing a new technique to plant trees using 
random locations inside an object as delimiter, when it occurred to me 
that I could use the same approach for placing houses. Then, with 
Paolo's hint, I got to work seriously... :-)

>
> keep up the good work
I shall.

Thomas

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Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:

> >
> As a basis I started with Sean Day's
> http://www.irtc.org/stills/2006-08-31.html and in particular the wall
> textures.
>
> Proximity patterns exist in different flavours...

Thanks, Thomas! I'll do a bit of searching, and see what I can find.

BTW, I also like your mountains; the steaks of granite running through them are
a nice touch. (When I initially saw your first image post in this thread, I
thought you had used a photo of real mountains!)

As others have said, this scene--and your city in general--are very inspiring.
Really nice work.

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One thing that stands out in my mind is the fact that all of the buildings are exactly
the same color, as if they were 
all built at the same time. I think it would look more realistic if each one was a
different color (at least compared to 
its neighbor), even if it was just a slight variation of gray/brown. Of course, down
the road (time-wise) you would want 
to add balconies and colored window awnings.

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On 3-4-2013 19:26, Kenneth wrote:
> Thanks, Thomas! I'll do a bit of searching, and see what I can find.

Give a yell if in trouble.

>
> BTW, I also like your mountains; the steaks of granite running through them are
> a nice touch. (When I initially saw your first image post in this thread, I
> thought you had used a photo of real mountains!)

Like so often, I stand on the shoulders of giants. In this case I built 
on from a texture by Jaime Vives Piqueres, in his Terra project. I 
always try to give the impression of geologically correct features 
(professional deformation ;-) ).

>
> As others have said, this scene--and your city in general--are very inspiring.
> Really nice work.

Thank you indeed. I am glad to inspire others when so many have inspired 
me over the years (and still do). Just giving a little something back in 
return.

Thomas

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On 3-4-2013 20:45, Tim Riley wrote:
> One thing that stands out in my mind is the fact that all of the
> buildings are exactly the same color, as if they were all built at the
> same time. I think it would look more realistic if each one was a
> different color (at least compared to its neighbor), even if it was just
> a slight variation of gray/brown. Of course, down the road (time-wise)
> you would want to add balconies and colored window awnings.
>
Of course. Absolutely right :-)

Variations in textures are not yet implemented, neither are additional 
props. They are planned however.

Thomas

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Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> You will note that the horizon mist is not correct at all. Either I
> should tweak the fog colour, or replace it by a true media ;-)

True media for an Earth-sized sphere sounds painfully excruciating.  Perhaps add
some translucency to the fog?

  http://www.povray.org/documentation/view/3.6.1/92/#s01_03_05_03_02

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On 4-4-2013 20:44, Cousin Ricky wrote:
> True media for an Earth-sized sphere sounds painfully excruciating.  Perhaps add
> some translucency to the fog?

<grin> Possibly. The media though does not need to cover the whole Earth 
sphere, only around the scene including the height_fields. Even so, 
render time would dramatically increase of course but for some /final/ 
render that would be acceptable. For the time being tweaking the fog 
parameters seems enough to me, maybe with some transparency indeed. I 
have to check what gives the best results.

Thomas

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