Hi(gh)!

After thinking thoroughly about it and having discussed the issue in 
some therapeutical setting, I came to the conclusion that it would be 
best for my mental health to mostly withdraw from the Internet, at least 
to cancel my private Internet access.

Nevertheless, raytracing and POV-Ray remains a prime pastime for me 
(although I currently doubt whether the world really needs a virtual 
Afghanistan), and occasionally I might still be present here from a 
friend's computer, but essentially, my Internet life ends now after 18 
years.

After posting this message and deleting all my web works 
(www.khyberspace.de, www.bergisch-afghanistan.de), I will cut through 
the ethernet cable which connects my computer to the Internet.

@clipka: Perhaps we meet some day in RL, I have your telephone number, 
and you should also be able to find mine...

So long,

Yadgar

Post a reply to this message

On 17/01/2013 2:22 PM, Jörg 'Yadgar' Bleimann wrote:
>
> After thinking thoroughly about it and having discussed the issue in
> some therapeutical setting, I came to the conclusion that it would be
> best for my mental health to mostly withdraw from the Internet, at least
> to cancel my private Internet access.


Sorry to see you go.
But if you think that it is for the best, then good luck.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Very sorry to hear this. But I hope that it will prove beneficial! Come back and
visit us if the opportunity arises.

Post a reply to this message

Likewise, I am sad to see you go. Sometimes those decisions have to be 
taken. I sincerely wish you all the best and hope to see you again here 
one day.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

Very sad tidings indeed. Your comments were very welcome to me and I ever wanted
to have a closer look at your bergisch-afghanistan. I read a lot of it, but not
all. Now it is gone and I can only recall a little of it from my memories. I
know that it is not likely that you read this lines, but I really hope that you
have not to abandon your (technics) organ as well. I will not say "good bye".

But I will say another thing. I have very bad experiencies from a close friend
who trusted her psychotherapist too much. Often this guys handle only the
symptoms but not the causes, just to earn money over years. They know that you
are in need, and they abuse you. And may be they have some sexual benefits...
Don't trust them, have a second opinion.

Best regards,
Michael

Post a reply to this message

"MichaelJF" <mi-### [at] t-onlinede> wrote:
> Very sad tidings indeed. Your comments were very welcome to me and I ever wanted
> to have a closer look at your bergisch-afghanistan. I read a lot of it, but not
> all. Now it is gone and I can only recall a little of it from my memories. I
> know that it is not likely that you read this lines, but I really hope that you
> have not to abandon your (technics) organ as well. I will not say "good bye".
>
> But I will say another thing. I have very bad experiencies from a close friend
> who trusted her psychotherapist too much. Often this guys handle only the
> symptoms but not the causes, just to earn money over years. They know that you
> are in need, and they abuse you. And may be they have some sexual benefits...
> Don't trust them, have a second opinion.
>
> Best regards,
> Michael

I apologize for being a little bit to short last days, which can lead to
misunderstandings.  First, I didn't want to trivialise mental disorders as the
World Health Organisation is calling mental diseases nowadays. This
renaming should yield more acceptance for persons concerned but trivialises
mental diseases IMO, since this kind of diseases can cause severe suffering -
especially because they are not as easy to explain like e.g. a broken bone.

Second, I mixed up reports by two friends with similiar problems both many years
ago. One of them reported this special "extra payment" I mentioned, the other
not. Since I have my own experiences with medics from my first profession as a
male nurse this reports just fits into my picture. You will not belief how e.g.
heart surgeons talk about smokers when they belief to be under themselves. My
opinion is that there a sound number of honorable ones, but a sound number of
black sheeps too. The problem is to tell them apart. So a reference by other
people concerned or a second opion is needed. I know this is a good and a bad
advice, since if one has severe mental problems it is hard enough to go to the
first person.

Third, I think that any kind of addiction (to the internet, gaming, drugs or
whatever) is only a symptom of a deeper, underlying problem, which has to be
revealed.

Fourth, I was concerened about loosing a friend here and as all I noticed Joergs
activities here were sparse within the last months and could not explain an
addiction to the internet causing a mental disorder. But than I googled about
Joerg and found a lot of things he cannot eliminate from the net so fast (or
ever) and now I understand him.


Joerg, if you ever read this lines, the POV-Community is concerned about POV of
course in the first place but you can discuss a lot of things within the off
topic group. Not all of course, but within the internet you will never find a
better community. But I think you know this...

Best regards,
Michael

Post a reply to this message

Hi(gh)!

Meanwhile, I had to relax my strong intial stance about leaving the 
Internet for an unforseeable time (if not forever) to a more moderate 
one: as my problem lies not with the Internet in general, but rather 
with the WWW, I reconfigured my two computers in a way that I now only 
can use e-mail, Usenet (which of course includes news.povray.org) and 
telnet (for the occasional MUD session). The "psychological hurdle" for 
re-installing Firefox or the Internet Explorer is high enough as I lost 
my Windows XP installation disc years ago, so that I first would have to 
buy a "new" (nowadays of course second hand) one or to re-install Linux 
on my main raytracing computer, which would take me more than two hours 
and thus would also be too cumbersome.

In fact, my most severe addiction (or better, compulsion as it gives me 
not even short-time positive feelings of satisfaction, only mental pain) 
is googling several times a day for the catchwords "sin" or "hell", to 
land up on Christian fundamentalist websites telling me that I, as a 
homosexual unbeliever, am heading straight towards a place and state 
infinitely worse than Auschwitz! Websites which tell me that even the 
faintest hunch of independent, individualist thinking is nothing less 
than spitting into the face of God Almighty, unforgivable unless I 
surrender to Fundamentalist doctrine and become a robotic slave of what 
they call "Jesus Christ". There must be tens of thousands of such 
websites, also in German language... and I'm simply addicted to 
religiously induced fear!

There of course also is the issue of simply devoting far too much time 
for Internet/computer activities in general - which still would be a 
problem resulting in a chronically messy apartment and runaway obesity 
(meanwhile almost hitting 300 lbs!) even without access to the WWW.

Am 21.01.2013 21:16, schrieb MichaelJF:

> Fourth, I was concerened about loosing a friend here and as all I noticed Joergs
> activities here were sparse within the last months and could not explain an
> addiction to the internet causing a mental disorder.

Partially it in fact can be explained by my obsessive-compulsory 
affliction described above, but also by the fact that I started to 
prepare the version 0.3 of my Earth Flight animation (on YouTube, look 
for "Yadgar1969"), which involves thorough processing of huge "Blue 
Marble" Earth satellite mosaic textures; this probably would occupy me 
well into 2014. Then there still is Khyberspace, the virtual 
Afghanistan, partially as an SRTM-based part of POVEarth, but also 
partially (the "Kabul Module") using a heightfield generated from a 
Soviet-made topographic map at a scale of 1:100,000.

I also deleted my www.khyberspace.de pages, as during almost 12 years, 
the response to it was next to none. Many contents of those pages were 
also much too personal, almost exhibitionistical to be presented to a 
global public. Why should anyone outside there take any attention of my 
current weight, hair length or my strange teenage obsessions having led 
me to that weird fascination of Afghanistan? Furthermore, also the 
"Greenbook" electronic organ database and the nascent "Rock-o-Data" 
music database have been erased. In the more distant future, when I may 
have acquired the mental strength to withstand the lure of "fear 
googling", I probably will return to the WWW to rework these projects.

My Afghanistan chronicle (http://home.arcor.de/yadgar/index.htm), 
however, remains on the Web, as also a close friend of mine uses this 
webspace, so I was not allowed at all to erase it...

But for the time being, I'm not able to tackle with the sheer 
availability of fundamentalist content on the WWW, at least when I'm 
alone at home and not under the "social control" of friends or in an 
Internet cafe where excessive surfing and "fear googling" would become 
too expensive.

> But than I googled about
> Joerg and found a lot of things he cannot eliminate from the net so fast (or
> ever) and now I understand him.

Which "things" do you mean?

> Joerg, if you ever read this lines, the POV-Community is concerned about POV of
> course in the first place but you can discuss a lot of things within the off
> topic group. Not all of course, but within the internet you will never find a
> better community. But I think you know this...

Yes, of course!

See you on my screen!

Yadgar

Post a reply to this message

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg_=27Yadgar=27_Bleimann?= <yaz### [at] gmxde> wrote:
> In fact, my most severe addiction (or better, compulsion as it gives me
> not even short-time positive feelings of satisfaction, only mental pain)
> is googling several times a day for the catchwords "sin" or "hell", to
> land up on Christian fundamentalist websites telling me that I, as a
> homosexual unbeliever, am heading straight towards a place and state
> infinitely worse than Auschwitz! Websites which tell me that even the
> faintest hunch of independent, individualist thinking is nothing less
> than spitting into the face of God Almighty, unforgivable unless I
> surrender to Fundamentalist doctrine and become a robotic slave of what
> they call "Jesus Christ". There must be tens of thousands of such
> websites, also in German language... and I'm simply addicted to
> religiously induced fear!

You must stop Googling "sin" and "hell," and stay away from fundamentalist Web
sites.  Why torture yourself?  See if there are any atheist, humanist, or
freethought groups in your community; they can help you deal with social
surroundings that condemn you for who you are.

Do you have a fundamentalist Christian background?  You might want to contact
Dr. Marlene Winell (http://journeyfree.org/).  I don't know if she knows of any
resources in Germany, but it's worth a try.

Post a reply to this message

On 1/22/2013 6:01 AM, Cousin Ricky wrote:
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg_=27Yadgar=27_Bleimann?= <yaz### [at] gmxde> wrote:
>> In fact, my most severe addiction (or better, compulsion as it gives me
>> not even short-time positive feelings of satisfaction, only mental pain)
>> is googling several times a day for the catchwords "sin" or "hell", to
>> land up on Christian fundamentalist websites telling me that I, as a
>> homosexual unbeliever, am heading straight towards a place and state
>> infinitely worse than Auschwitz! Websites which tell me that even the
>> faintest hunch of independent, individualist thinking is nothing less
>> than spitting into the face of God Almighty, unforgivable unless I
>> surrender to Fundamentalist doctrine and become a robotic slave of what
>> they call "Jesus Christ". There must be tens of thousands of such
>> websites, also in German language... and I'm simply addicted to
>> religiously induced fear!
>
> You must stop Googling "sin" and "hell," and stay away from fundamentalist Web
> sites.  Why torture yourself?  See if there are any atheist, humanist, or
> freethought groups in your community; they can help you deal with social
> surroundings that condemn you for who you are.
>
> Do you have a fundamentalist Christian background?  You might want to contact
> Dr. Marlene Winell (http://journeyfree.org/).  I don't know if she knows of any
> resources in Germany, but it's worth a try.
>
Yes, definitely find some more sane people to talk to, visit. Seriously, 
"fundamentalists" are nothing of the sort. They cherry pick BS, based on 
their own fears and biases, and ignore everything else in their 
supposedly "holy" book. And, most of the stuff in it is absurd to the 
point of idiocy. Good example - the whole "three races" nonsense from 
Noah was, "Cain saw me naked, while I was drunk, so, despite the other 
two brothers being extra careful not to see me naked, when they covered 
me up, I cursed all of them!" Thus the "mark of Cain", and the supposed 
separation of humans into blacks, Jews and Asians, of which only the 
Jews where "redeemable". I mean, WTF? This crap is being taught in some 
voucher based schools in the US, on tax payer expense, because the 
wackos here think its important to "spread the truth".

And, the irony? There is evidence that gay issues, abstinence, etc., is 
becoming less and less relevant to younger people in the US, which is 
the "hotbed" of this nonsense, even as the fundie death cultists are 
getting more and more aggressive in trying to cheat their way into 
office and spread their crap all over everything.

No, the whole "sin" of being gay, has nothing to do with god, or hell. 
Hell didn't even exist as a coherent idea, until *after* the New 
Testament, when they needed to make promises of heaven, and invest a 
place of punishment (both stolen from the Greek and Roman legends), 
while ignoring Ecclesiastics, which pretty much denies the existence of 
*any* world beyond this one, never mind rewards/punishments for "sin" in 
life.

Like I said - cherry picking. There isn't much point to sin, if no one 
gets punished, so.. they choose to ignore the OT parts that deny the 
existence of heaven and hell, but "accept" the parts that would make 
their male centric, woman owning, "out breed the other races", the only 
real purpose in life is to make a lot of male babies, parts. The only 
sin/evil here is in their hate, fear, anger, and willingness to destroy 
people that don't agree with their absurd assertions, cherry picked 
mythology, and delusional view of how the world works.

You definitely need to find some people that are not totally nuts to 
talk to, and stop reading the lies of these irrelevant, less than 5% of 
the population, assholes.

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 09:01:52 -0500, Cousin Ricky wrote:

> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg_=27Yadgar=27_Bleimann?= <yaz### [at] gmxde> wrote:
>> In fact, my most severe addiction (or better, compulsion as it gives me
>> not even short-time positive feelings of satisfaction, only mental
>> pain)
>> is googling several times a day for the catchwords "sin" or "hell", to
>> land up on Christian fundamentalist websites telling me that I, as a
>> homosexual unbeliever, am heading straight towards a place and state
>> infinitely worse than Auschwitz! Websites which tell me that even the
>> faintest hunch of independent, individualist thinking is nothing less
>> than spitting into the face of God Almighty, unforgivable unless I
>> surrender to Fundamentalist doctrine and become a robotic slave of what
>> they call "Jesus Christ". There must be tens of thousands of such
>> websites, also in German language... and I'm simply addicted to
>> religiously induced fear!
> 
> You must stop Googling "sin" and "hell," and stay away from
> fundamentalist Web sites.  Why torture yourself?  See if there are any
> atheist, humanist, or freethought groups in your community; they can
> help you deal with social surroundings that condemn you for who you are.

It's easy to say "well, stop doing that, then" - but as he says, it's a 
compulsion, and something that it sounds like he's seeking help for.

Joerg, I do hope you get the help you need.  There are far more people 
who are accepting of your lifestyle and who don't condemn you for it.  
You have friends here (I've not talked to you much, but I always have 
found your posts and images interesting) who like you for who you are.  
When the compulsion strikes to seek out these fundamentalist hate sites, 
remember that above all - and if your therapist isn't helping you 
overcome the compulsion, then you might ask him/her if they know of 
another therapist who might be able to help you more.  It does take time, 
of course, to overcome deeply ingrained behaviours and compulsions, but 
it's not impossible.

Best,

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Hi(gh)!

Am 22.01.2013 15:01, schrieb Cousin Ricky:

> Do you have a fundamentalist Christian background?

No, not at all - it is a purely self-taught neurosis! It is not a 
genuine Christian faith, just a result of my compulsive searching for 
things to fear! And, the Christian/Islamic concept of hell is the most 
fearsome idea man at all is able to conceive, so I went for it... since 
early childhood, I am addicted to fear! In earlier years, I had 
different fear themes, such as contracting some deadly disease (most 
favourite: AIDS and rabies), ending up in an extermination camp in some 
future Orwellian turbo-fascist regime, becoming psychotic, becoming 
demented due to premature Alzheimer's or BSE, or even the fear of 
reality being in fact a Matrix-like setting, with myself being nothing 
but a brain floating in some liquid nutrient solution in a mad 
scientist's laboratory - or even being the only conscious being in the 
whole universe! But hell is definitely unbeatable when it comes to 
inducing fear! Fear, fear, fear - that has been my life during the last 
40 years! And only now I try to take some measures against this 
obsession... by retreating (mostly) from the Internet, limiting my 
activities to e-mail, usenet and telnet.

See you on my screen!

Yadgar

Post a reply to this message

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg_=27Yadgar=27_Bleimann?= <yaz### [at] gmxde> wrote:
>
> Which "things" do you mean?
>
I meant only the huge amount of internet activity I observed within a lot of
communities, not the contents. Fine to have you back here.

Best regards,
Michael

Post a reply to this message

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg_=27Yadgar=27_Bleimann?= <yaz### [at] gmxde> wrote:
> ... I reconfigured my two computers in a way that I now only
> can use e-mail, Usenet (which of course includes news.povray.org) and
> telnet (for the occasional MUD session).

Just to pick a nit, news.povray.org is, explicitly and emphatically, NOT Usenet,
although it uses the same network protocol and discussion format.

Post a reply to this message

Hi(gh)!

Am 23.01.2013 02:11, schrieb Cousin Ricky:

> Just to pick a nit, news.povray.org is, explicitly and emphatically, NOT Usenet,
> although it uses the same network protocol and discussion format.

Hmmm... of course, the very culture of communication here differs very 
much from virtually all Usenet newsgroups I ever experienced since 
February 1995 - but technically, it looks like Usenet, feels like 
Usenet, but it doesn't smell like Usenet - no flame wars, no trolls, and 
if I remember correctly, only two spam postings in 12 years!

See you on my screen!

Yadgar

Post a reply to this message

Hi(gh)!

Am 22.01.2013 22:02, schrieb MichaelJF:

> I meant only the huge amount of internet activity I observed within a lot of
> communities, not the contents. Fine to have you back here.

Yes, and will stay put to p.b.i., as I am still able to use e-mail and 
newsgroups... I kicked all web browsers from my laptop's harddisk, and 
as I lost my Windows XP installation disk years ago and my main Linux 
computer is also not able to connect to the Internet anymore (unless I 
re-install Debian aptosid with the Ethernet cable plugged in, which 
would take more than two hours), I'm not tempted to plunge again into 
the WWW swamp! If I occasionally need to download some raytracing tools 
or information important to my Khyberspace, POVEarth and POVSolar 
projects, I still can use a friend's Internet connection.

The Linux computer (an AMD Opteron hexacore with 16 GB RAM and 2 TB 
harddisk) is now mostly devoted to POV-Ray (what else?).

See you on my screen!

Yadgar

Post a reply to this message

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg_=27Yadgar=27_Bleimann?= <yaz### [at] gmxde> wrote:
> Fear, fear, fear - that has been my life during the last
> 40 years! And only now I try to take some measures against this
> obsession...

That shows real courage! Just by realizing it, and wanting to change. That's a
positive step.

It's difficult (probably THE most difficult thing) to break away from an
ingrained mind-set. You're certainly not alone in that regard. I have an
acquaintance (not really a 'friend', as our philosophies just differ too much)
who spends countless hours on the internet, going from site to site to
essentially 'reinforce' her irrational and negative views of the world. Why she
CHOOSES to do so is a mystery to me, as this behavior is really unhealthy for
her. (Some of those internet sites are *so* strange, extreme and paranoid that
it boggles my mind.) We've had discussions about this; but the bottom line is
that she refuses to acknowledge that there might be a problem, and likewise
refuses to seek any help for it. So your own realization (even if late in
coming) is a great positive step!

Internet addiction is indeed a problem, and a growing one. I'm an older guy;
when I was growing up, we had *limited* interaction with the wider outside
world: three TV channels(!) plus newspapers, that was about it. Information came
from trusted, rational sources. And it was essentially a 'one-way
street'--opinions about the news and the world were generally shared only within
the family, or among close friends. With the modern internet, though, it's a
free-for-all: *Anyone* with an extreme viewpoint and/or an ax to grind can
'broadcast' to the world--and can easily connect with a group of like-minded
people, which only serves to *reinforce* the group's skewed opinions. It leads
to more extremism, in all forms. (That's one reason why I don't visit Facebook
very often: too many 'fringe' opinions about things.)

So getting away from the internet (if only temporarily) is highly recommended!
;-)

Post a reply to this message

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg_=27Yadgar=27_Bleimann?= <yaz### [at] gmxde> wrote:

>
> In fact, my most severe addiction (or better, compulsion as it gives me
> not even short-time positive feelings of satisfaction, only mental pain)
> is googling several times a day for the catchwords "sin" or "hell", to
> land up on Christian fundamentalist websites telling me that I, as a
> homosexual unbeliever, am heading straight towards a place and state
> infinitely worse than Auschwitz!

I think the best thing to do would be to see the humor(!) in those
fundamentalist sites. "Finding humor in things" has always been my motto--it
keeps me sane in a crazy world.

I grew up in Virginia in the US--which is one of the States near the 'deep
South', where Christian fundamentalism has its biggest base. My early years were
religiously oriented (by my family.) I'm a non-believer now; but it took a
*great* deal of effort and time, on my part, to 'break away' from what I
considered to be a fear-based, closed view of the world. It wasn't easy here
(and still isn't); the great majority of people (even friends of mine) are
Christian-oriented. And the common thread *I* see is fear. Christianity itself
is probably not to blame; but it seems to me that fundamentalism and fear go
hand-in-hand. As others have commented, it would be best for you to stay away
from the fundamentalist websites, as a first step. (I wish I could convince the
people I know to do the same.)

BTW, I wouldn't be too upset that you haven't had many visits to your own
website (if that's the case.) You're probably in very good company! ;-) The web
has so *many* sites to choose from--even POV-Ray oriented sites--that I rarely
get a chance to re-visit them as much as I would like. That doesn't mean I/we
are not interested, it's probably just the result of limited time, or having
other pursuits. I know it can be frustrating to 'create' something, and then
have little interest in it from others. But my own philosophy about creativity
(for what it's worth) is this: The FUN of creativity itself is its own reward.
If others like it, great! If not, that's OK too. That doesn't change the
'reason' for the creativity. It should basically be a self-fulfilling and fun
pursuit, first and foremost--good for the creative juices and self-esteem.
Nothing wrong what that!

Post a reply to this message

On 1/22/2013 9:58 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 09:01:52 -0500, Cousin Ricky wrote:
>
>> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg_=27Yadgar=27_Bleimann?= <yaz### [at] gmxde> wrote:
>>> In fact, my most severe addiction (or better, compulsion as it gives me
>>> not even short-time positive feelings of satisfaction, only mental
>>> pain)
>>> is googling several times a day for the catchwords "sin" or "hell", to
>>> land up on Christian fundamentalist websites telling me that I, as a
>>> homosexual unbeliever, am heading straight towards a place and state
>>> infinitely worse than Auschwitz! Websites which tell me that even the
>>> faintest hunch of independent, individualist thinking is nothing less
>>> than spitting into the face of God Almighty, unforgivable unless I
>>> surrender to Fundamentalist doctrine and become a robotic slave of what
>>> they call "Jesus Christ". There must be tens of thousands of such
>>> websites, also in German language... and I'm simply addicted to
>>> religiously induced fear!
>>
>> You must stop Googling "sin" and "hell," and stay away from
>> fundamentalist Web sites.  Why torture yourself?  See if there are any
>> atheist, humanist, or freethought groups in your community; they can
>> help you deal with social surroundings that condemn you for who you are.
>
> It's easy to say "well, stop doing that, then" - but as he says, it's a
> compulsion, and something that it sounds like he's seeking help for.
>
Yes, I understand that. But that sort of compulsion has to be "rooted" 
on some level in a fear that these things might be true. And, that is 
the single hardest thing, even for people that completely give up on 
religion, to break. First step though has to be recognizing that its all 
BS from square one. Then, its still hard, and its not likely to help 
that a large percentage of mental health people may be just as roped in 
to the nonsense, so can't, themselves, completely break away from some 
level of belief in it.

Post a reply to this message

On 1/22/2013 10:22 AM, Jörg 'Yadgar' Bleimann wrote:
> Hi(gh)!
>
> Am 22.01.2013 15:01, schrieb Cousin Ricky:
>
>> Do you have a fundamentalist Christian background?
>
> No, not at all - it is a purely self-taught neurosis! It is not a
> genuine Christian faith, just a result of my compulsive searching for
> things to fear! And, the Christian/Islamic concept of hell is the most
> fearsome idea man at all is able to conceive, so I went for it... since
> early childhood, I am addicted to fear! In earlier years, I had
> different fear themes, such as contracting some deadly disease (most
> favourite: AIDS and rabies), ending up in an extermination camp in some
> future Orwellian turbo-fascist regime, becoming psychotic, becoming
> demented due to premature Alzheimer's or BSE, or even the fear of
> reality being in fact a Matrix-like setting, with myself being nothing
> but a brain floating in some liquid nutrient solution in a mad
> scientist's laboratory - or even being the only conscious being in the
> whole universe! But hell is definitely unbeatable when it comes to
> inducing fear! Fear, fear, fear - that has been my life during the last
> 40 years! And only now I try to take some measures against this
> obsession... by retreating (mostly) from the Internet, limiting my
> activities to e-mail, usenet and telnet.
>
> See you on my screen!
>
> Yadgar
Yikes.. Yeah, ok, that is definitely an.. interesting.. compulsion. Kind 
of an extreme version of some people's adventure seeking, which is, at 
least partly, neurological. Kind of makes me wonder if that is the case 
here too, then.

Post a reply to this message

On 1/23/2013 1:54 AM, Kenneth wrote:
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg_=27Yadgar=27_Bleimann?= <yaz### [at] gmxde> wrote:
>> Fear, fear, fear - that has been my life during the last
>> 40 years! And only now I try to take some measures against this
>> obsession...
>
> That shows real courage! Just by realizing it, and wanting to change. That's a
> positive step.
>
> It's difficult (probably THE most difficult thing) to break away from an
> ingrained mind-set. You're certainly not alone in that regard. I have an
> acquaintance (not really a 'friend', as our philosophies just differ too much)
> who spends countless hours on the internet, going from site to site to
> essentially 'reinforce' her irrational and negative views of the world. Why she
> CHOOSES to do so is a mystery to me, as this behavior is really unhealthy for
> her. (Some of those internet sites are *so* strange, extreme and paranoid that
> it boggles my mind.) We've had discussions about this; but the bottom line is
> that she refuses to acknowledge that there might be a problem, and likewise
> refuses to seek any help for it. So your own realization (even if late in
> coming) is a great positive step!
>
> Internet addiction is indeed a problem, and a growing one. I'm an older guy;
> when I was growing up, we had *limited* interaction with the wider outside
> world: three TV channels(!) plus newspapers, that was about it. Information came
> from trusted, rational sources. And it was essentially a 'one-way
> street'--opinions about the news and the world were generally shared only within
> the family, or among close friends. With the modern internet, though, it's a
> free-for-all: *Anyone* with an extreme viewpoint and/or an ax to grind can
> 'broadcast' to the world--and can easily connect with a group of like-minded
> people, which only serves to *reinforce* the group's skewed opinions. It leads
> to more extremism, in all forms. (That's one reason why I don't visit Facebook
> very often: too many 'fringe' opinions about things.)
>
> So getting away from the internet (if only temporarily) is highly recommended!
> ;-)
>
>
Yeah, it was so much better when the only way "fringe" could be 
broadcast was in the endless list of articles in fashion magazines, 
purporting miracle aging cures, or the latest "threat" to your diet. lol

Seriously though. Yeah, the internet doesn't exactly "filter" for decent 
information. Sadly, neither do some things that should, like medicine. 
Someone suggested a while back that we need to reclassify those things 
not as medicine/alternative, but as: Proven, unproven, and comfort 
measures. Because damn near everything thing in the so called 
"alternative" category, if not total bullshit, is either placebo (i.e., 
comfort measures), or unproven. Yet, the fact that they are not divided 
in such a clear way, allows insurance companies to offer up things like 
chiropractic (which is half comfort measures, and half dangerous 
bullshit), or acupuncture (which all evidence places in the "comfort 
measure" category), as valid options. And, those are just the semi-safe 
things, which *usually* don't get offered up to critically ill people, 
or those with dangerous, but treatable, conditions, if the doctor 
bothers to properly diagnose them, instead of handing them some herbal 
BS, and the like (which has happened a few times after some clown that 
should know better "diagnosed" a real condition as, "lack of energy", 
instead of figuring out why they had a lack of energy in the first place).

And, of course, as you say, this is just the "mild" stuff out there. 
Sadly, a lot of the non-mild stuff is also parroted on radio, or even 
Fox News, so.. turning off the internet, at least in the US, won't get 
you any place either.

Post a reply to this message

Am 23.01.2013 18:07, schrieb Patrick Elliott:

> And, of course, as you say, this is just the "mild" stuff out there.
> Sadly, a lot of the non-mild stuff is also parroted on radio, or even
> Fox News, so.. turning off the internet, at least in the US, won't get
> you any place either.

Germany is a comparatively sane place, as far as that goes.

Post a reply to this message

clipka <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
> Am 23.01.2013 18:07, schrieb Patrick Elliott:
>
> > And, of course, as you say, this is just the "mild" stuff out there.
> > Sadly, a lot of the non-mild stuff is also parroted on radio, or even
> > Fox News, so.. turning off the internet, at least in the US, won't get
> > you any place either.
>
> Germany is a comparatively sane place, as far as that goes.

Indeed, and especially the city of Cologne.

Best regards,
Michael

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 08:54:58 -0800, Patrick Elliott wrote:

> Yes, I understand that. But that sort of compulsion has to be "rooted"
> on some level in a fear that these things might be true. And, that is
> the single hardest thing, even for people that completely give up on
> religion,
> to break. First step though has to be recognizing that its all BS from
> square one. Then, its still hard, and its not likely to help that a
> large percentage of mental health people may be just as roped in to the
> nonsense, so can't, themselves, completely break away from some level of
> belief in it.

Sure, I was replying to Cousin Ricky, though.

And some compulsions are strong enough that even when the rational mind 
says "yes, it's all BS" the compulsion still exists, as you said.

It's not something that can be "fixed" (in general) by talking to random 
strangers on the 'net, either.  And it sounds like Joerg is getting 
professional help - which is good, as long as the therapist is actually 
helping (sadly, there are those who don't do a good job at that, either, 
and it becomes necessary to "shop around" to find one who helps with the 
problem rather than turning one into a perpetual patient.  That may not 
be the case here as I don't know Joerg's therapist or their techniques).

The best thing (IMHO) any community can do is provide moral support, 
remind him that there are people here who care about him and who want him 
to get better.  Apart from being true (at least for my part), that 
generally helps break the perception of everyone persecuting the 
individual.  That and encouraging the individual to seek/continue therapy 
with a licensed and /effective/ therapist who is trained in helping 
people overcome these types of compulsion.

It's been my experience (and it may be different for Joerg, so I'm 
speaking in general terms here) that just saying "well, stop doing that" 
makes things /worse/, because often times the individual then is made to 
feel that they're inadequate because they /can't/ because the compulsion 
is so strong.

So I'm going to repeat - Joerg, there are people here and on the 'net who 
don't think you're going to hell for your lifestyle and who don't condemn 
you.  There are people here and on the 'net who support you in doing what 
is necessary to overcome this compulsion, and who want you to know that 
you are a unique and valued individual.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Hi(gh)!

Am 23.01.2013 10:54, schrieb Kenneth:

> Internet addiction is indeed a problem, and a growing one. I'm an older guy;
> when I was growing up, we had *limited* interaction with the wider outside
> world: three TV channels(!) plus newspapers, that was about it.

Same with me - West Germany in the 1970s and early 1980s was exactly 
that way (East Germany even worse)!

> It leads
> to more extremism, in all forms.

The Internet is truly the place where McVeighs and Breiviks are born! 
After the Norway massacre in 2011, I in fact posted suggestions to shut 
down the Internet entirely (or at least to limit it strictly to the 
scientific community) in reader commentary columns of German newspapers' 
online editions...

> (That's one reason why I don't visit Facebook
> very often: too many 'fringe' opinions about things.)

Most of my real world friends do not have any Facebook account, nor do 
I... but it must be one of the dark traits of human nature (or at least 
Yadgar's nature), that perverse fascination of extremist ideas, whether 
it be that the Islamic world should be nuked to oblivion, unemployed 
should be starved to death in forced labour camps, Jews are no human 
beings but incarnations of Satan, gays should be gassed before they 
enter Hell, yadda, yadda, yadda... but I do absolutely not positively 
identify with that stuff, instead I wish myself being kicked to death by 
rabid neo-Nazis, thrown into to a future Auschwitz 2.0, perishing like a 
rat in clouds of Cyclone B... in word, ultimately punished for my mere 
existence. This mindset prevails since my childhood days, only to be 
reinforced from 2008 on by my discovery of the Calvinist doctrine of 
"total depravity" - man generally deserves nothing but everlasting 
pow(Auschwitz, infinity) (to put in POV terms), unless he completely 
surrenders to the Bible. The perfect confirmation of my deeply ingrained 
self-hate!

> So getting away from the internet (if only temporarily) is highly recommended!

Sometimes I wish that Peak Oil and the following total collapse of 
industrial civilization would rid the world of the Internet... then 
permaculture gardens, bicycles (if not even donkeys - I never had, and 
probably will have the chance to visit Afghanistan, but perhaps this way 
Afghanistan comes to us all...) would be far more important than 
programming languages, smartphones and Twitter accounts! And also POV-Ray...

See you on my screen!

Yadgar

Post a reply to this message

Hi(gh)!

Am 23.01.2013 17:57, schrieb Patrick Elliott:

> Yikes.. Yeah, ok, that is definitely an.. interesting.. compulsion. Kind
> of an extreme version of some people's adventure seeking, which is, at
> least partly, neurological. Kind of makes me wonder if that is the case
> here too, then.

Perhaps things would haved turned out better (or much worse), if back in 
summer of 1986, when I was quarreling with my parents about some usual 
youthful indepedence issue (I just turned 17), I really would have had 
the courage to run away from home, destination Afghanistan (what else?), 
somehow making my way to Peshawar or Quetta, joining up with some band 
of Mujahidin to take part in their jihad against the Soviet Army (like 
Jason Elliot in fact did in his summer holidays just before finishing 
high school - this guy is only four years older than me, I read his 
account of his later journeys in Afghanistan ("An Unexpected Light") in 
the mid-1990s, really stunning!), you know, "seeing the elephant", 
"Stahlgewitter" and all that foolish stuff about coming of age by war... 
but I cooled down after an hour or so and instead set out on a 200-mile 
bicycle trip to Amsterdam, back then still famed as a hippie/alternative 
mecca - from which my parents had to fetch me by car as my bike there 
broke down beyond repair, man, that was humiliating...

See you on my screen!

Yadgar

Post a reply to this message

Hi(gh)!

Am 23.01.2013 18:14, schrieb clipka:

> Germany is a comparatively sane place, as far as that goes.

Yes, it is... the days of Gerhard Löwenthal's "ZDF Magazine" (featuring 
countless picturesque but badly researched reports from Afghanistan, but 
I never watched them, although a friend constantly noticed me about 
them... I more relied on center-to-left newspapers and magazines), which 
was our Cold War equivalent to Glenn Beck, are long gone, and hardly 
anybody misses him or his show - except for the right-wing kooks on all 
those "pro-western", "libertarian", "counter-jihad", "neocon" and 
"theocon" blogs, while also crowd the German web since years...

See you in my screen!

Yadgar

Now playing: Mayan Skies (The Stranglers)

Post a reply to this message

Hi(gh)!

Am 23.01.2013 18:41, schrieb MichaelJF:
in
> Indeed, and especially the city of Cologne.

Mostly, but not entirely - the right-wing populist self-declared "civil 
movement" Pro Deutschland started here als "Pro Köln" in the mid-2000s. 
But, you're right, in Cologne, there is no blaring mouthpiece of the 
Right like with Springer's "Welt" in Berlin or Burda's "Focus" in 
Munich, not to mention what it means to grow up in such conservative 
backwaters like Lower Bavaria or the Hessian highlands... and, luckily, 
we still have no real right-wing TV or radio stations in our country! If 
there is such thing like a redneck culture here, our rednecks are much 
less bold than the US ones, as almost every election shows...

See you on my screen!

Yadgar

Post a reply to this message

sounds like it's not working

Post a reply to this message

Well said! I second that fully.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg_=27Yadgar=27_Bleimann?= <yaz### [at] gmxde> wrote:
> ... and, luckily,
> we still have no real right-wing TV or radio stations in our country! If
> there is such thing like a redneck culture here, our rednecks are much
> less bold than the US ones, as almost every election shows...
>

WOW, I have no idea what that's like. I think I'd like to move there! Here in
the US, such things have a wildly-disproportionate influence. So much so that it
feels almost...normal!

Post a reply to this message

Am 23.01.2013 20:21, schrieb Jim Henderson:

> It's been my experience (and it may be different for Joerg, so I'm
> speaking in general terms here) that just saying "well, stop doing that"
> makes things /worse/, because often times the individual then is made to
> feel that they're inadequate because they /can't/ because the compulsion
> is so strong.

Indeed; maybe more important than to get rid of the compulsion is to 
accept the compulsion in a neutral fashion, as a fact of life. Nothing 
to be proud of, but nothing to be ashamed of either.

Post a reply to this message

On 24-1-2013 14:39, Kenneth wrote:
>
> WOW, I have no idea what that's like. I think I'd like to move there! Here in
> the US, such things have a wildly-disproportionate influence. So much so that it
> feels almost...normal!

Europe is not such a bad place... ;-)

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

On 24/01/2013 3:06 PM, Thomas de Groot wrote:
> On 24-1-2013 14:39, Kenneth wrote:
>>
>> WOW, I have no idea what that's like. I think I'd like to move there!
>> Here in
>> the US, such things have a wildly-disproportionate influence. So much
>> so that it
>> feels almost...normal!
>
> Europe is not such a bad place... ;-)
>

Except in the summer when the American tourists come over. :-P

I got a little taste of it last year when I was working in New Mexico 
about 20 miles from the Texan border. It is hard to describe but it was 
like walking on eggshells. As a group we went to a county rodeo and yes, 
there were stalls where guns and rifles were being sold.
One nice thing happened. One of the company security guards wished me a 
happy holiday "back home" on the forth of July. He then asked if we 
celebrated Independence Day in England.

Gee! He was cute. ;-)

Anyway how did red-necks get their name?

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 21:52:40 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> Anyway how did red-necks get their name?

Working agriculture in the fields.  Before sunscreen, you'd get your neck 
sunburnt working in the fields, and it would turn .... red. :)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 25/01/2013 12:45 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 21:52:40 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>
>> Anyway how did red-necks get their name?
>
> Working agriculture in the fields.  Before sunscreen, you'd get your neck
> sunburnt working in the fields, and it would turn .... red. :)
>
Yes and where did people with light skin and a propensity to sunburn 
rather than tan, come from? I'll give you a clue.

"Top o' the morning, my fine broth o' a boy." And "See youse, Jimmy"


-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

"Kenneth" <kdw### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> WOW, I have no idea what that's like. I think I'd like to move there! Here in
> the US, such things have a wildly-disproportionate influence. So much so that it
> feels almost...normal!

So normal that they even call President Obama a liberal.  If Ronald Reagan ran
today, he would be too left-wing to get elected.

Post a reply to this message

Stephen <mca### [at] aolcom> wrote:
> One nice thing happened. One of the company security guards wished me a
> happy holiday "back home" on the forth of July. He then asked if we
> celebrated Independence Day in England.

He didn't!

I wonder if he wonders if New Yorkers celebrate Robert E. Lee Day, or if the
French celebrate the battle of Dien Bien Phu.

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 12:47:58 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 25/01/2013 12:45 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 21:52:40 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> Anyway how did red-necks get their name?
>>
>> Working agriculture in the fields.  Before sunscreen, you'd get your
>> neck sunburnt working in the fields, and it would turn .... red. :)
>>
> Yes and where did people with light skin and a propensity to sunburn
> rather than tan, come from? I'll give you a clue.
> 
> "Top o' the morning, my fine broth o' a boy." And "See youse, Jimmy"

Well, in part, yes. :)

I'm sure there are some of the "Guten Morgen" descent as well.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 12:09:20 -0500, Cousin Ricky wrote:

> Stephen <mca### [at] aolcom> wrote:
>> One nice thing happened. One of the company security guards wished me a
>> happy holiday "back home" on the forth of July. He then asked if we
>> celebrated Independence Day in England.
> 
> He didn't!
> 
> I wonder if he wonders if New Yorkers celebrate Robert E. Lee Day, or if
> the French celebrate the battle of Dien Bien Phu.

Heh, well, in Virginia they celebrated Martin Luther King day (in the 
state senate IIRC) by honoring General Stonewall Jackson..... m-/

Jim

Post a reply to this message

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg_=27Yadgar=27_Bleimann?= <yaz### [at] gmxde> wrote:
> Hi(gh)!
>
> Am 23.01.2013 18:41, schrieb MichaelJF:
> in
> > Indeed, and especially the city of Cologne.
>
> Mostly, but not entirely - the right-wing populist self-declared "civil
> movement" Pro Deutschland started here als "Pro Köln" in the mid-2000s.
> But, you're right, in Cologne, there is no blaring mouthpiece of the
> Right like with Springer's "Welt" in Berlin or Burda's "Focus" in
> Munich, not to mention what it means to grow up in such conservative
> backwaters like Lower Bavaria or the Hessian highlands...

Yes, you're right, I forgot that this Pro Deutschland issue started at Cologne.
But they are a minor community at Cologne I think. Cologne is more known to have
the biggest CSD (christopher street day, gay pride in english or mardi grass
(australia)) parades in Europe. Or to worship Prof. Dr. Joseph Aloisius
Ratzinger...

Best regards from the Hessian highlands (Odenwald - Darmstadt),
Michael

Post a reply to this message

Hi(gh)!

Am 25.01.2013 22:05, schrieb MichaelJF:

> Best regards from the Hessian highlands (Odenwald - Darmstadt),
> Michael

No, I thought of the Oberhessisches Bergland, you know, Fulda and so on...

See you on my screen!

Yadgar

Post a reply to this message

On 1/24/2013 5:39 AM, Kenneth wrote:
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg_=27Yadgar=27_Bleimann?= <yaz### [at] gmxde> wrote:
>> ... and, luckily,
>> we still have no real right-wing TV or radio stations in our country! If
>> there is such thing like a redneck culture here, our rednecks are much
>> less bold than the US ones, as almost every election shows...
>>
>
> WOW, I have no idea what that's like. I think I'd like to move there! Here in
> the US, such things have a wildly-disproportionate influence. So much so that it
> feels almost...normal!
>
I would go farther than that and say that one of the reasons things like 
"onion news" and some other completely made up parody shows that have 
popped up, then failed to stay, in the last few years, in the US, have 
done so because its nearly impossible to compete with the kinds of 
insane nonsense on the supposedly "real" shows.

Post a reply to this message

On 1/25/2013 8:56 AM, Cousin Ricky wrote:
> "Kenneth" <kdw### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> WOW, I have no idea what that's like. I think I'd like to move there! Here in
>> the US, such things have a wildly-disproportionate influence. So much so that it
>> feels almost...normal!
>
> So normal that they even call President Obama a liberal.  If Ronald Reagan ran
> today, he would be too left-wing to get elected.
>
Hell, he would be so "left wing" for some of these nuts, he would be 
lucky not to be called communist, and lynched.

Post a reply to this message

On 1/23/2013 11:44 AM, Jörg 'Yadgar' Bleimann wrote:
> Sometimes I wish that Peak Oil and the following total collapse of
> industrial civilization would rid the world of the Internet... then
> permaculture gardens, bicycles (if not even donkeys - I never had, and
> probably will have the chance to visit Afghanistan, but perhaps this way
> Afghanistan comes to us all...) would be far more important than
> programming languages, smartphones and Twitter accounts! And also
> POV-Ray...
>
Yeah, thing is, they kind of tried something like that, a few times. The 
last one they burned nearly every book they could find, including the 
ones on mechanics, architecture, medicine, etc., etc., and we are still 
finding shit in ruins that make us go, "Wow! Imagine if they hadn't had 
to hand make every gear for one of these things, instead of mass 
producing them!", today. Internet isn't the problem. Its sort of a 
free-form libertarian paradise. Which means that, when people do end up 
controlling it, on some level, what you get isn't paradise, or vast 
collections of good information, but the digital version of the novel 
Snow Crash, where everyone has gated communities, and every crazy ass 
idea there is has its own walled garden, where they all talk about how 
everyone else is crazy. The only difference is, there are no armed 
guards (technically), or robot guard dogs, so you won't get shot, 
bitten, etc., if you walk into the wrong place. You might, though, say 
something that contradicts local idiocies, and get your posts banned.

While not always a hard and fast rule, this last result is usually a 
damn good sign that everything there is pure bullshit, that different 
opinions, never mind actual facts, are considered hazardous material, 
and the people running the blog/site/service/etc. are *probably* several 
dozen bricks short of a pile of bricks, never mind a wall.

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 12:09:20 -0500, Cousin Ricky wrote:
>
> > Stephen <mca### [at] aolcom> wrote:
> >> One nice thing happened. One of the company security guards wished me a
> >> happy holiday "back home" on the forth of July. He then asked if we
> >> celebrated Independence Day in England.
> >
> > He didn't!
> >
> > I wonder if he wonders if New Yorkers celebrate Robert E. Lee Day, or if
> > the French celebrate the battle of Dien Bien Phu.
>
> Heh, well, in Virginia they celebrated Martin Luther King day (in the
> state senate IIRC) by honoring General Stonewall Jackson..... m-/

I don't believe it!

I mean, that people already invented a facepalm emoticon! m-/

and it conveys it message beautifully LOL

Post a reply to this message

On 25/01/2013 5:09 PM, Cousin Ricky wrote:
> Stephen<mca### [at] aolcom>  wrote:
>> >One nice thing happened. One of the company security guards wished me a
>> >happy holiday "back home" on the forth of July. He then asked if we
>> >celebrated Independence Day in England.
> He didn't!

He did, you know.

But don't be too hard on him. He was being friendly.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>
> Heh, well, in Virginia they celebrated Martin Luther King day (in the
> state senate IIRC) by honoring General Stonewall Jackson..... m-/
>

OMG! Didn't know that--and I live here. My own reaction (aside from being
shocked to the core) is..."Well, that's typical!"

Moving to Europe is looking better and better!

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 11:44:31 -0500, nemesis wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 12:09:20 -0500, Cousin Ricky wrote:
>>
>> > Stephen <mca### [at] aolcom> wrote:
>> >> One nice thing happened. One of the company security guards wished
>> >> me a happy holiday "back home" on the forth of July. He then asked
>> >> if we celebrated Independence Day in England.
>> >
>> > He didn't!
>> >
>> > I wonder if he wonders if New Yorkers celebrate Robert E. Lee Day, or
>> > if the French celebrate the battle of Dien Bien Phu.
>>
>> Heh, well, in Virginia they celebrated Martin Luther King day (in the
>> state senate IIRC) by honoring General Stonewall Jackson..... m-/
> 
> I don't believe it!
> 
> I mean, that people already invented a facepalm emoticon! m-/
> 
> and it conveys it message beautifully LOL

I borrowed it from Greta Christina - it's so fitting and appropriate, 
that I decided to help spread that one around a bit. :)

Jim

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Hi,

I am living in Jamaica. If the se fundamentalist Christians outside of Jamaica
are harassing, trust me, those inside Jamaica (an export from the USA) are even
worse!

They control the Jamaican society, cause that women are afraid of abortion and
get plenty babies (because unhappy persons are the food religions need), and go
even as far as telling the people what to do with each other in the nights and
what not. They make many people here highly ignorant of persons who don't share
their ideas.

Enough, I just wanted to mention this.

Best is to laugh about their stupidity. Let's all remember, it were the
Christians who were teaching in the medieval times, that the Bible would say the
Earth is a flat disc...

Post a reply to this message

Hi(gh)!

(I simply love thread necromancing...)

On 23.01.13 18:14, clipka wrote:

> Germany is a comparatively sane place, as far as that goes.

Yes, so it was eleven years ago... now, we're here on the verge of 
plunging into a neo-fascist dystopia - like vast parts of the world!

See you in Khyberspace!

-- 
VBI BENE, IBI BACTRIA!

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