Winter is coming, so...

I used a couple of World Machine height_fields as basis for a function, with 
an appropriate slope/altitude map.

The title refers to the novel Lavondyss by Robert Holdstock. The scene may 
turn out as a kind of illustration to this novel.

-- 
All the best,

Thomas

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Attachments:
Download 'Journey to an Unknown Region_02.jpg' (179 KB)

Preview of image 'Journey to an Unknown Region_02.jpg'

Damn good looking.  The closer rocky walls look a bit sandy, though.  Don't know
the novel nor the author.

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Really good picture. The upper left corner is quite perfect.

Nonetheless, the front is too smooth, so the surface (snow and rock) is not 
looking right. It is very, very difficult to model anything natural in such 
detail that it is convincing when seen up close, even things like humus, 
pebbles, rocks, sand and snow... There are so many differently shaped rocks 
(and in other scenes: plants, trees, vines, leaves) that it is more than 
hard to get a realistic render.

I would try to cover the front in a kind of ground fog. Thus the too smooth 
rock surface and flat snows on outcrops would become less noticeable and 
look more realistic.

Apart from this, again, a really nice picture: congratulations.

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This is really excellent.

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Nice one, Thomas; very realistic, and a nice composition too, making good use of
the 16X9 format.

As has been mentioned, I also think the scene could benefit from some traced-on
rocks or other small detail, to break up the smoothness of the mountain slope
(perhaps just in the right foreground, with the rocks scaling down as they
recede into the distance, just until they 'disappear' into the other detail of
the scene.)

Trying to duplicate the chaotic/jumbled look of nature is a tough assignment;
I'm working on a similar problem, and find that no matter how much detail I add
(rocks, plants, etc.), it *still* doesn't look like enough! Adding a normal of
some kind to the mountain surface (granite, for example) can help,
too--especially if the lighting angle really shows it off, as it would in your
scene, I think.

Ken

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"nemesis" <nam### [at] gmailcom> schreef in bericht 
news:web.4b1bd0ad338ab975c0c873050@news.povray.org...
> Damn good looking.  The closer rocky walls look a bit sandy, though. 
> Don't know
> the novel nor the author.
>
>
Thanks! I agree about the foreground. That is why this is a wip :)

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"TC" <do-not-reply@i-do get-enough-spam-already-2498.com> schreef in bericht 
news:4b1be4d0$1@news.povray.org...
> Really good picture. The upper left corner is quite perfect.
>
> Nonetheless, the front is too smooth, so the surface (snow and rock) is 
> not looking right. It is very, very difficult to model anything natural in 
> such detail that it is convincing when seen up close, even things like 
> humus, pebbles, rocks, sand and snow... There are so many differently 
> shaped rocks (and in other scenes: plants, trees, vines, leaves) that it 
> is more than hard to get a realistic render.
>
> I would try to cover the front in a kind of ground fog. Thus the too 
> smooth rock surface and flat snows on outcrops would become less 
> noticeable and look more realistic.
>
> Apart from this, again, a really nice picture: congratulations.

Thank you! Yes, the foreground needs work of course. That is why this is a 
wip. I intend indeed to add extra rocks there, but also an extra snow cover 
using one of the snow macros available. I am not sure about vegetation (fir 
trees) as I am still hesitating about the altitude suggested.

Thomas

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"Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> schreef in bericht 
news:4b1c2616$1@news.povray.org...
>
> This is really excellent.

Thank you Jim. There is going to be more work involved into this of course, 
especially ht e foreground.

Oh, I forgot to mention that the sky has been imported from Terragen, using 
Ive's tutorial and macro.

Thomas

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"Kenneth" <kdw### [at] earthlinknet> schreef in bericht 
news:web.4b1c6bb9338ab97565f302820@news.povray.org...
> Nice one, Thomas; very realistic, and a nice composition too, making good 
> use of
> the 16X9 format.
>
> As has been mentioned, I also think the scene could benefit from some 
> traced-on
> rocks or other small detail, to break up the smoothness of the mountain 
> slope
> (perhaps just in the right foreground, with the rocks scaling down as they
> recede into the distance, just until they 'disappear' into the other 
> detail of
> the scene.)
>
> Trying to duplicate the chaotic/jumbled look of nature is a tough 
> assignment;
> I'm working on a similar problem, and find that no matter how much detail 
> I add
> (rocks, plants, etc.), it *still* doesn't look like enough! Adding a 
> normal of
> some kind to the mountain surface (granite, for example) can help,
> too--especially if the lighting angle really shows it off, as it would in 
> your
> scene, I think.
>

Thank you, Ken! I hope to show an improved version soon. There are a number 
of things I want to add especially to the foreground. Rocks is certainly 
something I am thinking about and your suggestion to scale them down with 
distance is excellent; I had not thought of it. There is a granite micro 
normal added to the rock textures here, but in fact that does not work 
really as intended. The reason I think is that the micro normal is out of 
scale in comparison with the rock wall itself. In nature, you would not see 
that at all. So, what I am going to do is try another approach by using an 
overal spherical texture showing a coarse texture/normal in front, grading 
into a smooth one towards the back.

Thomas

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"Thomas de Groot" <tDOTdegroot@interDOTnlANOTHERDOTnet> wrote:
> I am not sure about vegetation (fir
> trees) as I am still hesitating about the altitude suggested.

Maybe not foreground vegetation (as you say, it looks too high for trees), but a
treeline in the distance might make a huge difference.

Nice work, I look forward to more.

Bill

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"Bill Pragnell" <bil### [at] hotmailcom> schreef in bericht 
news:web.4b1ccbc3338ab9756dd25f0b0@news.povray.org...
>
> Maybe not foreground vegetation (as you say, it looks too high for trees), 
> but a
> treeline in the distance might make a huge difference.

Yes, I think that would be the goal.

>
> Nice work, I look forward to more.

Thanks! :)

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Thomas de Groot" <tDOTdegroot@interDOTnlANOTHERDOTnet> wrote:
> Winter is coming, so...
>
> I used a couple of World Machine height_fields as basis for a function, with
> an appropriate slope/altitude map.
>
> The title refers to the novel Lavondyss by Robert Holdstock. The scene may
> turn out as a kind of illustration to this novel.
>
> --
> All the best,
>
> Thomas

Excellent landscape Thomas, like others have already pointed out I think the
right side especially at the front needs to be a bit more rugged and the snow in
the foreground looks like it has been painted onto the rocks. However, the snow
in the middle/and distance is perfect. I don't think the clouds look quite
realistic but then I find myself looking at the sky sometimes and thinking the
same thing, kind of if I had rendered that sky I wouldn't think it was realistic
so I am sure there have been clouds just like that somewhere..

Sean

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Looks cold.

Post a reply to this message

> in the middle/and distance is perfect. I don't think the clouds look quite
> realistic but then I find myself looking at the sky sometimes and thinking 
> the
> same thing, kind of if I had rendered that sky I wouldn't think it was 
> realistic
> so I am sure there have been clouds just like that somewhere..

You are right here. There are things like deep purple sunsets and pink 
sunrises or a sky-cloud combination on a somewhat rainy day in December that 
will illuminate a single tree like somebody trained a giant spotlight on it.

Today I looked at ground-fog in a small forest glade, the fog filling the 
glade completely and maybe three feet high, a soft breeze stirring the fog, 
sending white tendrils skyward. It looked like a scene straight out of a 
horror B-movie.

Nature can be unbelievably beautiful, in the truest sense of the word.

One of the most strange sights I ever saw was on a November morning more 
than a decade past. In the night it was pretty warm for the season and water 
evaporating from the lake must have created a ground fog. Then the 
temperature dropped really quickly below zero and all trees near the lake 
were covered in webs of glittering frost, while the ground (being able to 
hold the warmth longer) was completely void of snow. The beauty lasted only 
one half-hour...

Post a reply to this message

TC wrote:

> You are right here. There are things like deep purple sunsets and pink 
> sunrises or a sky-cloud combination on a somewhat rainy day in December that 
> will illuminate a single tree like somebody trained a giant spotlight on it.
> 
> Today I looked at ground-fog in a small forest glade, the fog filling the 
> glade completely and maybe three feet high, a soft breeze stirring the fog, 
> sending white tendrils skyward. It looked like a scene straight out of a 
> horror B-movie.
> 
> Nature can be unbelievably beautiful, in the truest sense of the word.
> 
> One of the most strange sights I ever saw was on a November morning more 
> than a decade past. In the night it was pretty warm for the season and water 
> evaporating from the lake must have created a ground fog. Then the 
> temperature dropped really quickly below zero and all trees near the lake 
> were covered in webs of glittering frost, while the ground (being able to 
> hold the warmth longer) was completely void of snow. The beauty lasted only 
> one half-hour...
> 
The most spectacular sight of this sort that I've seen was many years ago ('61 or
'62).  I was 
in the (U.S.) Army stationed in Germany.  I was driving along a mountainside
overlooking a broad 
valley with gentle rolling hills in it.  It was springtime, everything was green.  It
had been 
raining but wasn't at the moment.  The sky was still heavily overcast keeping
everything 
shadowed, except for a break in the clouds illuminating one hilltop -- with a castle
on it.  And 
a rainbow right next to it.

Even though this was almost 50 years ago and I only got a brief glimpse of it, it was
such an 
outstanding sight I still remember it vividly.

      -=- Larry -=-

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"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> schreef in bericht 
news:4b1d849b$1@news.povray.org...
>  Looks cold.

Thanks Warp. That is certainly the feeling I want to convey.

Thomas

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"s.day" <s.d### [at] uelacuk> schreef in bericht 
news:web.4b1d75af338ab9755a5ee9370@news.povray.org...
> Excellent landscape Thomas, like others have already pointed out I think 
> the
> right side especially at the front needs to be a bit more rugged and the 
> snow in
> the foreground looks like it has been painted onto the rocks. However, the 
> snow
> in the middle/and distance is perfect. I don't think the clouds look quite
> realistic but then I find myself looking at the sky sometimes and thinking 
> the
> same thing, kind of if I had rendered that sky I wouldn't think it was 
> realistic
> so I am sure there have been clouds just like that somewhere..
>

Thanks, Sean. Yes the foreground is going to get most attention for 
improvement. I had expected that of course knowing that I could not get away 
with a correct foreground at this scale and with a height_field. I agree 
about the sky, however I like it as it is now and I may do something about 
it later. I think that the doubt comes from the fact that the clouds do not 
seem to decrease in size towards the horizon. There is a size discrepancy 
between them and the scene which I shall have to address sooner or later.

Thomas

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"TC" <do-not-reply@i-do get-enough-spam-already-2498.com> schreef in bericht 
news:4b1d9a48@news.povray.org...
> You are right here. There are things like deep purple sunsets and pink 
> sunrises or a sky-cloud combination on a somewhat rainy day in December 
> that will illuminate a single tree like somebody trained a giant spotlight 
> on it.
>
> Today I looked at ground-fog in a small forest glade, the fog filling the 
> glade completely and maybe three feet high, a soft breeze stirring the 
> fog, sending white tendrils skyward. It looked like a scene straight out 
> of a horror B-movie.
>
> Nature can be unbelievably beautiful, in the truest sense of the word.
>
> One of the most strange sights I ever saw was on a November morning more 
> than a decade past. In the night it was pretty warm for the season and 
> water evaporating from the lake must have created a ground fog. Then the 
> temperature dropped really quickly below zero and all trees near the lake 
> were covered in webs of glittering frost, while the ground (being able to 
> hold the warmth longer) was completely void of snow. The beauty lasted 
> only one half-hour...


Cool.
I usually try to have a camera with me when going outdoors, just to catch 
those fleeting moments. Truth is that often when I see some such, I have 
forgotten to take my camera with me  :-)

Thomas

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"Larry Hudson" <org### [at] yahoocom> schreef in bericht 
news:4b1dd30c$1@news.povray.org...
> The most spectacular sight of this sort that I've seen was many years ago 
> ('61 or '62).  I was in the (U.S.) Army stationed in Germany.  I was 
> driving along a mountainside overlooking a broad valley with gentle 
> rolling hills in it.  It was springtime, everything was green.  It had 
> been raining but wasn't at the moment.  The sky was still heavily overcast 
> keeping everything shadowed, except for a break in the clouds illuminating 
> one hilltop -- with a castle on it.  And a rainbow right next to it.
>
> Even though this was almost 50 years ago and I only got a brief glimpse of 
> it, it was such an outstanding sight I still remember it vividly.
>

That is wonderful indeed. Like a painting of Wilhelm Friedrich. Those 
experiences are like a kind of epiphany.

Thomas

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"Thomas de Groot" <tDOTdegroot@interDOTnlANOTHERDOTnet> wrote:
> Winter is coming, so...
>
> I used a couple of World Machine height_fields as basis for a function, with
> an appropriate slope/altitude map.
>
> The title refers to the novel Lavondyss by Robert Holdstock. The scene may
> turn out as a kind of illustration to this novel.
>
> --
> All the best,
>
> Thomas

It's looking good, Thomas! It reminds me of the mountains we have around here,
but ours are grey with many round stones, and little more rounded at the peaks.
The high country. Beautiful, yet treacherous.

Are you using the free version of World Machine which has a 512x512 height field
resolution limit? If so, I know of a way to get even higher resolution maps into
POV, but WM is not involved. You can use the free version of Terragen to make
your HF, import it into TerraBrush, and then export the HF to a 16-bit bitmap
format. Terragen's erosion functions are terribly slow, but it's the best work
flow I could find for Windows.

Just thought I would share that since I spent a long time searching for a
solution, and the info is useful :)

Sam

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"Samuel Benge" <stb### [at] hotmailcom> schreef in bericht 
news:web.4b1ea446338ab975d670fe1e0@news.povray.org...
>
> It's looking good, Thomas! It reminds me of the mountains we have around 
> here,
> but ours are grey with many round stones, and little more rounded at the 
> peaks.
> The high country. Beautiful, yet treacherous.
>
> Are you using the free version of World Machine which has a 512x512 height 
> field
> resolution limit? If so, I know of a way to get even higher resolution 
> maps into
> POV, but WM is not involved. You can use the free version of Terragen to 
> make
> your HF, import it into TerraBrush, and then export the HF to a 16-bit 
> bitmap
> format. Terragen's erosion functions are terribly slow, but it's the best 
> work
> flow I could find for Windows.
>
> Just thought I would share that since I spent a long time searching for a
> solution, and the info is useful :)
>

Thank you indeed Sam! This is useful info. I do indeed use the free version 
of WM. What I often do (not here though) is to load the HF into GeoControl 
(or Leveller) and increase the resolution and maybe add some features before 
exporting to POV. I confess that I forgot about Terrabrush which I used in 
the past along with others. Also Terragen has been somewhat neglected by me 
these last couple of years. I like to have several and different 
possibilities for approaching a goal.

Thomas

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"Thomas de Groot" <tDOTdegroot@interDOTnlANOTHERDOTnet> wrote:
> Winter is coming, so...
>
> I used a couple of World Machine height_fields as basis for a function, with
> an appropriate slope/altitude map.
>
> The title refers to the novel Lavondyss by Robert Holdstock. The scene may
> turn out as a kind of illustration to this novel.
>
> --
> All the best,
>
> Thomas

Wow, really nice so far Thomas, looks great overall!

Here's an idea for some foreground detail: I often use some simple height_field
ledges/rocks scaled quite small and traced down to the surface with
Reorient_Trans, randomly scattered all atop/inside/through one another for some
detail. Or maybe simple isosurface rocks done in the same way, randomly scaled &
rotated.

I'm really looking forward to seeing your progress on this one.

Now I'm off to Amazon to order that book, I need a good read for the holidays,
thanks :)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.McGregorFineArt.com

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This is interesting I believe, although still far from perfect. What I did 
here is:

- introduce a spherical pattern to make the normal in the rock texture 
gradually disappear;
- add trees to the background valley with a treeline somewhere in the snow;
- add rocks to the surface and make them scale down with distance.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

Attachments:
Download 'Journey to an Unknown Region_04.jpg' (206 KB)

Preview of image 'Journey to an Unknown Region_04.jpg'

"Robert McGregor" <rob### [at] mcgregorfineartcom> schreef in bericht 
news:web.4b1fa16a338ab9754726e92b0@news.povray.org...
> Wow, really nice so far Thomas, looks great overall!
>
> Here's an idea for some foreground detail: I often use some simple 
> height_field
> ledges/rocks scaled quite small and traced down to the surface with
> Reorient_Trans, randomly scattered all atop/inside/through one another for 
> some
> detail. Or maybe simple isosurface rocks done in the same way, randomly 
> scaled &
> rotated.
>
> I'm really looking forward to seeing your progress on this one.
>
> Now I'm off to Amazon to order that book, I need a good read for the 
> holidays,
> thanks :)


Thank you Robert!

Good idea abou those ledges. As you will see in the second wip I just 
uploaded, I used a mesh rock (need to use 1 or 2 more for differentiation) 
with the added nice touch that they are gradually scaling down with 
distance. This way I can play with the illusion of distance. VDist(V1,V2) 
and little simple calculation did the trick for me.

The foreground needs some *real* snow now.

I hope you like the book. Imo, it is the best in the Mythago Wood Series of 
which it is the second. They can be read separately though without much 
problems.

Thomas

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"Thomas de Groot" <tDOTdegroot@interDOTnlANOTHERDOTnet> wrote:
> This is interesting I believe, although still far from perfect. What I did
> here is:
>
> - introduce a spherical pattern to make the normal in the rock texture
> gradually disappear;
> - add trees to the background valley with a treeline somewhere in the snow;
> - add rocks to the surface and make them scale down with distance.
>
> Thomas

It's looking even better now. The rocks might need more variation in their
sizes, perhaps with some squishing and stretching. Are they height_fields?

Occasionally I think about new ways to populate a landscape with rocks. One of
these days I'll have to try modeling a set of them in Blender, decimating the
meshes to reduce the poly count. Now that I know an object pattern can be
created from a mesh, I'll have to try giving the rocks a proximity pattern...

Sam

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"Samuel Benge" <stb### [at] hotmailcom> schreef in bericht 
news:web.4b1ffdf85af25d5cf8c77720@news.povray.org...
>
> It's looking even better now. The rocks might need more variation in their
> sizes, perhaps with some squishing and stretching. Are they height_fields?
>
> Occasionally I think about new ways to populate a landscape with rocks. 
> One of
> these days I'll have to try modeling a set of them in Blender, decimating 
> the
> meshes to reduce the poly count. Now that I know an object pattern can be
> created from a mesh, I'll have to try giving the rocks a proximity 
> pattern...
>

Thank you Sam. I am on the right track I believe. Still work to do though. I 
only used one simple mesh rock here, but I shall increase that number to 
three to get more variations that way, but as you said, more differential 
scaling is also in order here.

Object patterns... hmm. I shall have to think about that too...

Thomas

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>Thomas de Groot  on date 09/12/2009 16:12 wrote:
> This is interesting I believe, although still far from perfect. What I did 
> here is:
> 
> - introduce a spherical pattern to make the normal in the rock texture 
> gradually disappear;
> - add trees to the background valley with a treeline somewhere in the snow;
> - add rocks to the surface and make them scale down with distance.
> 
> Thomas 
> 
> 
> 
Neat.
Ok, it is unfair in an unknown region, but it could be interesting 
having a path, perhaps signed with red or orange paint on the stones.
And what about an animal (a bird or an ibex)?

;-)
Paolo

Post a reply to this message

"Paolo Gibellini" <p.g### [at] gmailcom> schreef in bericht 
news:4b20dbb9$1@news.povray.org...
> Neat.
> Ok, it is unfair in an unknown region, but it could be interesting having 
> a path, perhaps signed with red or orange paint on the stones.
> And what about an animal (a bird or an ibex)?
>

No! No! No path here! We are in really wild territory where few humans have 
trode  :)  Consider yourself as a scout...

Please be patient. Animal(s) will certainly appear in a later stage, when I 
am doneand satisfied with the landscape.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Thomas de Groot" <tDOTdegroot@interDOTnlANOTHERDOTnet> wrote:
> Please be patient. Animal(s) will certainly appear in a later stage, when I
> am doneand satisfied with the landscape.

Looks like lammergeier country to me. I bet you can't find one of *those* on
Daz3d!

:)

Post a reply to this message

>Thomas de Groot  on date 10/12/2009 13:49 wrote:
> 
> No! No! No path here! We are in really wild territory where few humans have 
> trode  :)  Consider yourself as a scout...
> 
> Please be patient. Animal(s) will certainly appear in a later stage, when I 
> am doneand satisfied with the landscape.
> 
> Thomas 
> 
> 
I'm a very patient man...
;-)
Paolo

Post a reply to this message

"Thomas de Groot" <tDOTdegroot@interDOTnlANOTHERDOTnet> wrote:
> This is interesting I believe, although still far from perfect. What I did
> here is:
>
> - introduce a spherical pattern to make the normal in the rock texture
> gradually disappear;
> - add trees to the background valley with a treeline somewhere in the snow;
> - add rocks to the surface and make them scale down with distance.
>
> Thomas

My first thought on seeing your 2nd WIP was, "Oh, now there are too *many*
rocks."  But actually, it does look right, in the way that shards of rock break
off and congregate on the slope near the bottom of a rocky cliff, after eons of
going through the freeze/thaw cycle.

Looking better and better!

Ken

Post a reply to this message

"Kenneth" <kdw### [at] earthlinknet> schreef in bericht 
news:web.4b21d5e95af25d565f302820@news.povray.org...
>
> My first thought on seeing your 2nd WIP was, "Oh, now there are too *many*
> rocks."  But actually, it does look right, in the way that shards of rock 
> break
> off and congregate on the slope near the bottom of a rocky cliff, after 
> eons of
> going through the freeze/thaw cycle.

It is a difficult balance, I know, but I think that the number or 
concentrations of rocks are fairly natural looking. The higher slopes would 
be too steep here to be stable (>35-37 degrees, which is the maximum in 
general) but who cares? I am not after total RL copying  ;-)

> Looking better and better!

Thank you!

Thomas

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"Bill Pragnell" <bil### [at] hotmailcom> schreef in bericht 
news:web.4b20f1cb5af25d56dd25f0b0@news.povray.org...
>
> Looks like lammergeier country to me. I bet you can't find one of *those* 
> on
> Daz3d!

I have an eagle. Will that do?   :)

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

Thomas de Groot wrote:

> - introduce a spherical pattern to make the normal in the rock texture 
> gradually disappear;
> - add trees to the background valley with a treeline somewhere in the snow;
> - add rocks to the surface and make them scale down with distance.
> 

this one is looking really *cool* and the rocks do add a lot.
Some of the "teeth" of the center mountain do look a bit strange to me 
but IIRC you are the geologist and not me so what do I know ;)

-Ive

Post a reply to this message

Ive wrote:
> Thomas de Groot wrote:
> 
>> - introduce a spherical pattern to make the normal in the rock texture 
>> gradually disappear;
>> - add trees to the background valley with a treeline somewhere in the 
>> snow;
>> - add rocks to the surface and make them scale down with distance.
>>
> 
> this one is looking really *cool* and the rocks do add a lot.
> Some of the "teeth" of the center mountain do look a bit strange to me 
> but IIRC you are the geologist and not me so what do I know ;)
> 
> -Ive

Yes, in the whole seeing-is-believing/believing-is-seeing dance we do 
with this medium, Thomas' street creds in the geology area count for a 
LOT.  (Your's too in the lighting arena btw ;) )

Post a reply to this message

"Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> schreef in bericht 
news:4b2586e4$1@news.povray.org...
> Ive wrote:
>>
>> this one is looking really *cool* and the rocks do add a lot.
>> Some of the "teeth" of the center mountain do look a bit strange to me 
>> but IIRC you are the geologist and not me so what do I know ;)
>>
>> -Ive
>
> Yes, in the whole seeing-is-believing/believing-is-seeing dance we do with 
> this medium, Thomas' street creds in the geology area count for a LOT. 
> (Your's too in the lighting arena btw ;) )

Thank you dear sirs!

To tell the truth, I think that Ive's expertise in lighting and image 
control is more fundamental in our mutual business than my knowledge of 
geology :-)
That said, while I try to use geology to a certain extent, it also often 
gets in the way of pure creation, so it is finding the right balance. 
Certainly, the *teeth* are pure WM artifacts (which I have not been able to 
eradicate completely) but under some conditions you can find them in nature 
too, as particular erosional features. I like to imagine that this landscape 
shows steeply inclined, almost vertical, rock layers running over the ridge.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

>> Yes, in the whole seeing-is-believing/believing-is-seeing dance we do with 
>> this medium, Thomas' street creds in the geology area count for a LOT. 
>> (Your's too in the lighting arena btw ;) )

Thomas de Groot wrote:
> To tell the truth, I think that Ive's expertise in lighting and image 
> control is more fundamental in our mutual business than my knowledge of 
> geology :-)
> That said, while I try to use geology to a certain extent, it also often 
> gets in the way of pure creation, so it is finding the right balance. 
> Certainly, the *teeth* are pure WM artifacts (which I have not been able to 
> eradicate completely) but under some conditions you can find them in nature 
> too, as particular erosional features. I like to imagine that this landscape 
> shows steeply inclined, almost vertical, rock layers running over the ridge.
> 

Thanks for the flowers ;) but to me it seems by being a *hobbyist* and 
not a "pro" in the business (who is always restricted by deadlines and 
so has to work in a much more economical way) that almost everything is 
equally fundamental. So I am quite interested in e.g. Thomas' 
explanation how rock layers would run.

Like Thomas (and I believe this is also true for you, Jim) I'm not 
aiming for photorealism. But I think trying to achieve it is a quite 
interesting, entertaining and educational experience. It forces us to 
look very carefully at the "real stuff" to see how things look and - 
especially for the use within a renderer like POV-Ray - we have also to 
try to understand *why* things look the way they do.

My final goal (that I will never reach, but at least trying to get there 
is the main part of the fun) would be to have complete freedom of choice 
how photo-real, hyper-real, un-real, whatever-real an image of mine 
should look like.

I have mentioned the Chinese movie director Wong Kar-Way already a few 
times. What I do find so interesting about his movies (besides that I 
simply love them) is that they are just shot at real locations and he 
just works with the given real lighting conditions but achieves often an 
effect that especially those extremely beautiful Chinese actresses (and 
actors btw) appear sometimes almost ghostly and over worldly.
For sure locations, camera positions and so on are very carefully chosen 
but it is a completely different way as the common hollywood-shot where 
a lot of afford goes into artificial lighting setup and post processing 
to make things *look* real.
It would be quite interesting to extract some Wong Kar-Way movie stills 
from blue-ray discs (not available yet) and post them into some 
CG-forums (or here ;)) - by claiming they are CG. I'm pretty sure that a 
lot of people would criticize that it is too obvious CG, that the face 
looks too perfect and symmetric or even locate it deep in the "uncanny 
valley".

So much from me on that seeing-is-believing/believing-is-seeing 
dance/balance for now.

-Ive

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"Ive" <"ive### [at] lilysoftorg"> schreef in bericht 
news:4b262932$1@news.povray.org...
>
> Thanks for the flowers ;) but to me it seems by being a *hobbyist* and not 
> a "pro" in the business (who is always restricted by deadlines and so has 
> to work in a much more economical way) that almost everything is equally 
> fundamental. So I am quite interested in e.g. Thomas' explanation how rock 
> layers would run.

I suppose we try to integrate as smoothly as possible our knowledge, and the 
knowledge of others, in our personal dreams and creations. That is why these 
forums are so hugely important: because of the synergy and the 
cross-fertilisation of ideas and techniques.

>
> Like Thomas (and I believe this is also true for you, Jim) I'm not aiming 
> for photorealism. But I think trying to achieve it is a quite interesting, 
> entertaining and educational experience. It forces us to look very 
> carefully at the "real stuff" to see how things look and - especially for 
> the use within a renderer like POV-Ray - we have also to try to understand 
> *why* things look the way they do.

Absolutely true.

>
> My final goal (that I will never reach, but at least trying to get there 
> is the main part of the fun) would be to have complete freedom of choice 
> how photo-real, hyper-real, un-real, whatever-real an image of mine should 
> look like.

<grin> yes, yes!

>
> I have mentioned the Chinese movie director Wong Kar-Way already a few 
> times. What I do find so interesting about his movies (besides that I 
> simply love them) is that they are just shot at real locations and he just 
> works with the given real lighting conditions but achieves often an effect 
> that especially those extremely beautiful Chinese actresses (and actors 
> btw) appear sometimes almost ghostly and over worldly.
> For sure locations, camera positions and so on are very carefully chosen 
> but it is a completely different way as the common hollywood-shot where a 
> lot of afford goes into artificial lighting setup and post processing to 
> make things *look* real.
> It would be quite interesting to extract some Wong Kar-Way movie stills 
> from blue-ray discs (not available yet) and post them into some CG-forums 
> (or here ;)) - by claiming they are CG. I'm pretty sure that a lot of 
> people would criticize that it is too obvious CG, that the face looks too 
> perfect and symmetric or even locate it deep in the "uncanny valley".

I agree.

Thomas

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Not bad at all, as usual! Still, some details missing. Small stones or 
pebbles, and maybe some small plants or mosses. Not sure.

Sven

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