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Been experimenting with something else again, inspired this time by a scene
in the novel Nova, by Samuel Delany.
This megapov image is nothing special, but it highlights a couple of things.
First of all, there is - again - the problem of scale. The real planetary
measurements have been used for this image. However, because of the z-buffer
limit, I had to scale down the kilometer values by a factor 3.
Second, If I want to build something on Triton, I want them to be
metre-scaled. So the camera position for instance is scaled down by a factor
6. Which generates the known problem of ultra-fine resolution, already
discussed here during the Ringworld experiments by Bill Pragnell, myself
(and some others?) last year. I rendered this scene also in version 3.7 and,
interestingly, the surface of Triton disappeared!!! Rendered in the adapted
3.6.0 version (see the Ringworld experiments) was not better than this
image.
So, what do we see here?
- Neptune is visible as it would be from the surface of Triton. Its axial
tilt in relation to the ecliptic is provided.
- The rings of Neptune are there. However, their width has been grossly
exagerated. In reality they are probably not or hardly visible.
- The small dot to the right of the planet is the moon Proteus. It looks
like this is probably the only moon really visible from Triton, the others
being too small or to far away to appear in the sky.
- The red cone is a placeholder, traced upon the surface of Triton. It casts
no shadow, probably because of the resolution limit.
Conclusion: If I want to create a scene, I shall probably fake reality by
scaling a sphere to the apparent size of Neptune, within a business-as-usual
POV-Ray scene. But at least, I shall know that the apparent size is
correct!!
Comments are of course more than welcome!!
Thomas
Post a reply to this message
Attachments:
Download 'NeptuneFromTriton.jpg' (10 KB)
Preview of image 'NeptuneFromTriton.jpg'
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PS I forgot to say that the black band at the base of the image is an
artifact from the scale resolution.
Thomas
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"Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] inter nlDOTnet> wrote:
> Been experimenting with something else again, inspired this time by a scene
> in the novel Nova, by Samuel Delany.
Well Thomas you do have good taste in SF. I’m looking forward to your
depiction of a sensory-syrynx :-) or even Dhalgren <g>
[snip]
> Conclusion: If I want to create a scene, I shall probably fake reality by
> scaling a sphere to the apparent size of Neptune, within a business-as-usual
> POV-Ray scene. But at least, I shall know that the apparent size is
> correct!!
The problem with RL is, it doesn’t live up to the imagination. In most
things SF, artistic licence must be used.
Stephen
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"Stephen" <mcavoys_AT_aolDOT.com> schreef in bericht
news:web.45802ec567574c2cf1cb1e660@news.povray.org...
>
> Well Thomas you do have good taste in SF. I'm looking forward to your
> depiction of a sensory-syrynx :-) or even Dhalgren <g>
> [snip]
>
Thank you Stephen! I am currently re-reading Delany's novels (Babel-17,
Jewels of Aptor, Einstein Intersection, Fall of the Towers, Dhalgren, Nova),
at the same time as I am (again) reading Brian Aldiss.
The syrynx is indeed on my wishlist and I have a couple of ideas about it.
Delany's description is sketchy, but that leaves enough latitude to
interpretation. The apparent mixture of different instruments (sitar,
guitar, theremin, harp...) is very exciting.
>
> The problem with RL is, it doesn't live up to the imagination. In most
> things SF, artistic licence must be used.
>
Well, both views are correct, I think. RL often doesn't live up to
imagination when you remember the revelation of the first photographs of
Jupiter's moons for instance, or the first really close-up photographs of
Mars. But happily, we are still entitled to artistic licence indeed!!
However, I think that, unconsciously, I would like to re-create RL in
POV-Ray!! :-)
Thomas
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"Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote:
> "Stephen" <mcavoys_AT_aolDOT.com> schreef in bericht
> news:web.45802ec567574c2cf1cb1e660@news.povray.org...
> >
> > Well Thomas you do have good taste in SF. I'm looking forward to your
> > depiction of a sensory-syrynx :-) or even Dhalgren <g>
> > [snip]
> >
> Thank you Stephen! I am currently re-reading Delany's novels (Babel-17,
> Jewels of Aptor, Einstein Intersection, Fall of the Towers, Dhalgren, Nova),
> at the same time as I am (again) reading Brian Aldiss.
Cyber punk before it was thought of :-) I must find copies of these books
and reread them. I googled him yesterday and he looks really old in the
image below. His hair is almost as white as mine :-)
http://www.blackbird.vcu.edu/v2n2/features/delaney_s_030104/delaney_s.htm
> The syrynx is indeed on my wishlist and I have a couple of ideas about it.
> Delany's description is sketchy, but that leaves enough latitude to
> interpretation. The apparent mixture of different instruments (sitar,
> guitar, theremin, harp...) is very exciting.
That’s it, Thomas go for the easy targets :-) I’d like to see the results.
> >
> > The problem with RL is, it doesn't live up to the imagination. In most
> > things SF, artistic licence must be used.
> >
> Well, both views are correct, I think. RL often doesn't live up to
> imagination when you remember the revelation of the first photographs of
> Jupiter's moons for instance, or the first really close-up photographs of
> Mars. But happily, we are still entitled to artistic licence indeed!!
> However, I think that, unconsciously, I would like to re-create RL in
> POV-Ray!! :-)
Best of British, mate!
Stephen
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> Well, both views are correct, I think. RL often doesn't live up to
> imagination when you remember the revelation of the first photographs of
> Jupiter's moons for instance, or the first really close-up photographs of
> Mars. But happily, we are still entitled to artistic licence indeed!!
> However, I think that, unconsciously, I would like to re-create RL in
> POV-Ray!! :-)
I think cheating's OK in this sort of case. If the end result is
indistinguishable from the rigorous version, what the hell. Planets in
skies etc look like they're painted on the inside of a dome anyway. (hmm,
sounds familiar...)
With the Ringworld, the issue was that the structure itself was visible at
all distances, and so couldn't be faked realistically. And, remember what I
did to give it an atmosphere... :)
Bill
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"Bill Pragnell" <bil### [at] hotmailcom> schreef in bericht
news:web.45813fec67574c2c731f01d10@news.povray.org...
>> Well, both views are correct, I think. RL often doesn't live up to
>> imagination when you remember the revelation of the first photographs of
>> Jupiter's moons for instance, or the first really close-up photographs of
>> Mars.....
I typed the contrary of what I wanted to say here, but you certainly
understood! I wanted to say: 'Imagination often doesn't live up to RL'
> I think cheating's OK in this sort of case. If the end result is
> indistinguishable from the rigorous version, what the hell. Planets in
> skies etc look like they're painted on the inside of a dome anyway. (hmm,
> sounds familiar...)
Yes, I agree, and in fact we do that all/most of the times... I was curious
however to try this and to get proportions right.
> With the Ringworld, the issue was that the structure itself was visible at
> all distances, and so couldn't be faked realistically. And, remember what
> I
> did to give it an atmosphere... :)
Yes, the problem is a bit different, but basically the scale issue is
apparent here too. And yes, that atmosphere has been used again here for
Triton. I shall tweak it more of course.
Thomas
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"Stephen" <mcavoys_AT_aolDOT.com> schreef in bericht
news:web.4581254b67574c2cf1cb1e660@news.povray.org...
> Cyber punk before it was thought of :-) I must find copies of these books
> and reread them. I googled him yesterday and he looks really old in the
> image below. His hair is almost as white as mine :-)
> http://www.blackbird.vcu.edu/v2n2/features/delaney_s_030104/delaney_s.htm
Well, he was born in 1942, if I am correct. In a couple of years, I may
resemble him: almost as white (less than you obviously :-) ). Only my beard
is shorter...
>> The syrynx is indeed on my wishlist and I have a couple of ideas about
>> it.
>> Delany's description is sketchy, but that leaves enough latitude to
>> interpretation. The apparent mixture of different instruments (sitar,
>> guitar, theremin, harp...) is very exciting.
>
> That's it, Thomas go for the easy targets :-) I'd like to see the results.
We'll see... However, no easy targets, sir! That will be through crooked
little tunnels (all alike)... Now, let's see what *that* reminds you of!!!!
:-)
>> ....However, I think that, unconsciously, I would like to re-create RL in
>> POV-Ray!! :-)
>
> Best of British, mate!
LOL
Thomas
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"Bill Pragnell" <bil### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
> > Well, both views are correct, I think. RL often doesn't live up to
> > imagination when you remember the revelation of the first photographs of
> > Jupiter's moons for instance, or the first really close-up photographs of
> > Mars. But happily, we are still entitled to artistic licence indeed!!
> > However, I think that, unconsciously, I would like to re-create RL in
> > POV-Ray!! :-)
>
> I think cheating's OK in this sort of case. If the end result is
> indistinguishable from the rigorous version,
Are you talking about “making it smaller and moving it closer” so an object
is the same apparent size?
I was thinking along the lines of “make it bigger so it is not so
insignificant”, or exaggerate for effect. There are fewer things so
underwhelming as seeing a pinprick and knowing it is a moon.
>what the hell. Planets in
> skies etc look like they're painted on the inside of a dome anyway. (hmm,
> sounds familiar...)
That’s because they are, well on the insides of crystal spheres actually.
> With the Ringworld, the issue was that the structure itself was visible at
> all distances, and so couldn't be faked realistically. And, remember what I
> did to give it an atmosphere... :)
>
Give a link please, Bill. Old age has withered my memory
Stephen
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"Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote:
> Well, he was born in 1942, if I am correct. In a couple of years, I may
> resemble him: almost as white (less than you obviously :-) ). Only my beard
> is shorter...
Soon to get his bus pass:-)
My hair is not white it’s the silver of a finely crafted helm :-?
> We'll see... However, no easy targets, sir! That will be through crooked
> little tunnels (all alike)... Now, let's see what *that* reminds you of!!!!
> :-)
Hmm. “You are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike.” Don’t know, never
wasted any work time playing it. It was before my time. Computers are only
used for serious work.
I give in, what? :-)
Stephen
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"Stephen" <mcavoys_AT_aolDOT.com> wrote:
> Are you talking about “making it smaller and moving it closer” so an object
> is the same apparent size?
> I was thinking along the lines of “make it bigger so it is not so
> insignificant”, or exaggerate for effect. There are fewer things so
> underwhelming as seeing a pinprick and knowing it is a moon.
I was thinking of making it look as it is in reality, but without using the
exact dimensions and thus suffering accuracyitis in POV-Ray. Either moving
it closer and making it smaller, or maybe even *actually* painting it on the
inside of a sky sphere, or whatever solution seems easiest!
On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with exaggerating for effect either
:-)
> > With the Ringworld, the issue was that the structure itself was visible at
> > all distances, and so couldn't be faked realistically. And, remember what I
> > did to give it an atmosphere... :)
> Give a link please, Bill. Old age has withered my memory
Hopefully this'll fit in the window:
http://news.povray.org/povray.binaries.images/thread/%3Cweb.4360929f30852916731f01d10@news.povray.org%3E/
Bill
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"Stephen" <mcavoys_AT_aolDOT.com> schreef in bericht
news:web.45816f0967574c2cf1cb1e660@news.povray.org...
>
> Hmm. "You are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike." Don't know, never
> wasted any work time playing it. It was before my time. Computers are only
> used for serious work.
> I give in, what? :-)
>
Colossal Cave. It was the first (text) game I ever played in my life,
somewhere in the late 1970's or early 1980's. I learned a lot from it.
Inspired me to start my own game in Fortran, based on the novel Gateway.
Never finished it of couse.
I don't know. It just surfaced in my memory.
Thomas
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"Bill Pragnell" <bil### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
> "Stephen" <mcavoys_AT_aolDOT.com> wrote:
> > Are you talking about “making it smaller and moving it closer” so an object
> > is the same apparent size?
> > I was thinking along the lines of “make it bigger so it is not so
> > insignificant”, or exaggerate for effect. There are fewer things so
> > underwhelming as seeing a pinprick and knowing it is a moon.
>
> I was thinking of making it look as it is in reality, but without using the
> exact dimensions and thus suffering accuracyitis in POV-Ray. Either moving
> it closer and making it smaller, or maybe even *actually* painting it on the
> inside of a sky sphere, or whatever solution seems easiest!
Accuracyitis, I love it :-)
> On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with exaggerating for effect either
> :-)
>
> > > With the Ringworld, the issue was that the structure itself was visible at
> > > all distances, and so couldn't be faked realistically. And, remember what I
> > > did to give it an atmosphere... :)
> > Give a link please, Bill. Old age has withered my memory
>
> Hopefully this'll fit in the window:
>
http://news.povray.org/povray.binaries.images/thread/%3Cweb.4360929f30852916731f01d10@news.povray.org%3E/
>
I remember it now, of course. Did you ever finish your ring world using
David’s patched version?
Stephen
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"Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote:
> Colossal Cave. It was the first (text) game I ever played in my life,
> somewhere in the late 1970's or early 1980's. I learned a lot from it.
> Inspired me to start my own game in Fortran, based on the novel Gateway.
> Never finished it of couse.
> I don't know. It just surfaced in my memory.
>
> Thomas
I just downloaded Zork1 and have remembered how to change the screen to
black on green :-)
The first (text) game I can remember playing was called Kingdom it was on a
PDP 8. I can’t find any reference to it on the net :-(
Stephen
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Stephen nous apporta ses lumieres en ce 15-12-2006 05:04:
> "Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote:
>> Colossal Cave. It was the first (text) game I ever played in my life,
>> somewhere in the late 1970's or early 1980's. I learned a lot from it.
>> Inspired me to start my own game in Fortran, based on the novel Gateway.
>> Never finished it of couse.
>> I don't know. It just surfaced in my memory.
>> Thomas
> I just downloaded Zork1 and have remembered how to change the screen to
> black on green :-)
> The first (text) game I can remember playing was called Kingdom it was on a
> PDP 8. I can’t find any reference to it on the net :-(
> Stephen
Mission impossible on an Apple][
--
Alain
-------------------------------------------------
To define recursion, we must first define recursion.
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Thus, by wrenching natural laws apart, the second wip is arrived at.
At Neptune, I mainly tweaked the rings towards a more RL aspect, although
too wide of course, and I scaled two moons (Proteus and Larissa) five times
their real size to make them better visible. Added some fog on a - as yet -
featureless Triton and colored the atmosphere to something more appealing
although less breathable. Now, the conic placeholder casts a shadow and
there is no artifact in the foreground.
Building time has arrived!! First of all, the modelling of Hell<exp>3, one
of the fiery cracks in the surface, according to the space opera.
(However, I have also other running projects under way....)
Thomas
Post a reply to this message
Attachments:
Download 'Triton.jpg' (18 KB)
Preview of image 'Triton.jpg'
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"Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote:
> Thus, by wrenching natural laws apart, the second wip is arrived at.
>
> At Neptune, I mainly tweaked the rings towards a more RL aspect, although
> too wide of course, and I scaled two moons (Proteus and Larissa) five times
> their real size to make them better visible. Added some fog on a - as yet -
> featureless Triton and colored the atmosphere to something more appealing
> although less breathable. Now, the conic placeholder casts a shadow and
> there is no artifact in the foreground.
>
> Building time has arrived!! First of all, the modelling of Hell<exp>3, one
> of the fiery cracks in the surface, according to the space opera.
> (However, I have also other running projects under way....)
>
> Thomas
What are you using for the texture of Neptune? If you want image maps, I
found some cylindricals here:
http://www.mmedia.is/bjj/data/neptune/index.html
-tgq
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Thomas de Groot wrote:
> Colossal Cave. It was the first (text) game I ever played in my life,
I still have the listing of Colossal Cave 550 sitting on my shelf. In
CaveLanguage, interpreted by a fortran program. :-)
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Scruffitarianism - Where T-shirt, jeans,
and a three-day beard are "Sunday Best."
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"Trevor G Quayle" <Tin### [at] hotmailcom> schreef in bericht
news:web.4582c991c65210e0c150d4c10@news.povray.org...
> What are you using for the texture of Neptune? If you want image maps, I
> found some cylindricals here:
> http://www.mmedia.is/bjj/data/neptune/index.html
I used a cylindrical image_map of Neptune. Basically it is the same as yours
(thank you for the link) only a bit more sustained blue. Downloaded from:
http://planetpixelemporium.com/neptune.html
Thomas
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"Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote:
> Thus, by wrenching natural laws apart, the second wip is arrived at.
>
> At Neptune, I mainly tweaked the rings towards a more RL aspect, although
> too wide of course, and I scaled two moons (Proteus and Larissa) five times
> their real size to make them better visible. Added some fog on a - as yet -
> featureless Triton and colored the atmosphere to something more appealing
> although less breathable. Now, the conic placeholder casts a shadow and
> there is no artifact in the foreground.
You may need to do this in 2 steps... 1: render Neptune at km scale, then
render Triton at m scale, and use a graphics editor to put the 2 together.
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From: Thomas de Groot
Subject: Re: Neptune seen from Triton - wip 2
Date: 20 Dec 2006 02:47:45
Message: <4588eaa1@news.povray.org>
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"EagleSun" <nomail@nomail> schreef in bericht
news:web.45880104c65210e087ea6da70@news.povray.org...
>
> You may need to do this in 2 steps... 1: render Neptune at km scale, then
> render Triton at m scale, and use a graphics editor to put the 2 together.
>
That is a possibility indeed. For the time being I prefer my method: my
current scene Neptune was first rendered at a scaled down km scale. Scaled
down because of the z-buffer essentially, but keeping the apparent
proportions identical (as seen from Triton). Finally, the scene on Triton is
going to be built following more or less a m scale. The end result will be
undistinguishable from RL :-)
Thomas
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