There is more wrong with this than right, but I wanted to show the 
direction I have being working in.  This actually started as an entry 
for "future" but has turned into a more measured project to teach myself 
organic modelling, texturing, hair generation etc.  It's going to take a 
while to get something really showable.
No sss in place yet.
Modelled in Wings
Lighting by Jaime
Bumpmaps and image maps generated in PS
Uvmapped in uvmapper

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Photo Shop or Paint Shop?

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Apache wrote:
> Photo Shop or Paint Shop?
> 
> 
sorry, Photoshop 7

Post a reply to this message

Breathtaking, 'cept the hair just isn't right for an actual silverback....

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"Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote in message
news:400485b8@news.povray.org...

 Jim, that is just fantastic! I love it! I can see where you were
coming from ref the IRTC, but you know, I can't wait for the day that
3D artists can actually get to the point when they can use their
artistic abilities quickly, not slowly. One day, eh?

    Steve

Post a reply to this message

Greg M. Johnson wrote:
> 
> Breathtaking, 'cept the hair just isn't right for an actual
> silverback....

Well, maybe not a silverback gorilla, but one could easily
hypothesize an isolate group of hominids that survived.

Regards,
John

Post a reply to this message

"Greg M. Johnson" <gregj;-)565### [at] aolcom> wrote in message
news:4004a73b$1@news.povray.org...
> Breathtaking, 'cept the hair just isn't right for an actual silverback....

Judging by the ears and the shape of the back of the head I would rather say
it's a chimpanze ^___^
Nonetheless very good job!

Jean-luc bombarding a sphere with 10 000 photons and not even trialed for it

Post a reply to this message

Greg M. Johnson wrote:
> Breathtaking, 'cept the hair just isn't right for an actual silverback....
> 
> 
Yes you are right.  It is actually based on a chimp and the hair should 
be black, and the skin a kind of dirty pumpkin yellow.  But as I was 
experimenting with the hair effect I kept picturing a human.

Post a reply to this message

John VanSickle wrote:


> 
> Well, maybe not a silverback gorilla, but one could easily
> hypothesize an isolate group of hominids that survived.
> 

Yes, that was the sort of ambiguity I was origially thinking of.  I had 
intended to display the hominid along with a quote from my daughter:

"You mean in a million years, when they find my bones, they'll think I 
look like a monkey?"

BTW I know you are working on a mesh modeller.  I am generating the hair 
direction in POV by tracing splines along the surface of the figure.  In 
this picture I used the trace function.  In my next try I want to use 
the fact that Wings allows you to assign materials to individual polys. 
  So when I export to .obj, I can use this to parse out a hand drawn 
sequence of vertices and their normals.  It would be easier to be able 
to merely export selected vertices and their normals to a text file, 
then POV it from there.

-Jim

Post a reply to this message

Jean-luc Songa Butera wrote:


> Judging by the ears and the shape of the back of the head I would rather say
> it's a chimpanze ^___^
Obviously you know your primates.  I was working from a fairly lousy b/w 
photo (of a chimp) that I found on the web, but I finally went to a 
second hand bookstore to see if I could find some better pictures. 
Particularily of the eyes and skin color.  Anyway I found a nice little 
picture book featuring chimps, baboons, and gorillas mostly.  So I am 
learning to discriminate.

-Jim

Post a reply to this message

St. wrote:


> 
>  Jim, that is just fantastic! I love it! 

Thanks!

I can see where you were
> coming from ref the IRTC, but you know, I can't wait for the day that
> 3D artists can actually get to the point when they can use their
> artistic abilities quickly, not slowly. One day, eh?
> 

Yes you have to consolidate a lot of skills and energy, and the IRTC bar 
is pretty high now.  I always liked Jaimes observation that he attempts 
only what he can realistically accomplish.

-Jim

Post a reply to this message

Okay, perhaps I wrongly assumed "silverback" meant "old monkey."

But the hair doesn't look like that on an old monkey.  Perhaps it needs
specular.

Post a reply to this message

Greg M. Johnson wrote:
> Okay, perhaps I wrongly assumed "silverback" meant "old monkey."
> 
> But the hair doesn't look like that on an old monkey.  Perhaps it needs
> specular.
> 
> 

Now that I have a book to look at, the hair seems to vary a lot, even 
between individuals in a species.  The source photo I was using did seem 
to show pretty scraggy hair, which I took to mean "old" also.  Other 
chimps have more tuffed hair, in others its softer, more aligned in 
waves.  None look quite as wiry as in my picture though.

I was trying to get a wavy effect by distorting the hairs based on a 
smooth pattern like bozo.  But it didn't work as expected.  I think I 
may be amplifying the distortion to much.  Indeed, I added reflection, 
but left the specular at default, it was late.

I adopted your three-sided, segmented mesh technique to build the hair. 
  But I based each hair individually on a spline.  This alllows me to 
start with a specific root point, and a spedific end point.  Some 
splines just behave in a wacky way though.  That is the main reason that 
the segmenting sometimes shows.  Hopefully on my next pass I can improve 
all this.  It's a slow process because I try to move forward on each 
problem in turn. Refine the modelling.  Then the uv texture mapping, 
then the hair generation, then the lighting vs finish, then the eyes, 
etc.  I am also hoping to integrate your hair macros in the process also.

-Jim

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Jim Charter wrote:
> Apache wrote:
> 
>> Photo Shop or Paint Shop?
>>
>>
> sorry, Photoshop 7

And though it goes without saying, I should also credit Poseray for the 
conversion to POV format

Post a reply to this message

With Wings3D, eh? I've been fiddling around with that modeller lately as
well, simply because I want to get some experience on modelling. Won't go
very far professionally if I don't do some mesh-modelling and just stick to
POV-Ray's CSG and script-based meshes. Not that I really want to become a
pro in that area, but you never know...

Anyway, do you have any good links where they explain a little about
modelling? This model looks awesome compared to what I'm fiddling around
with, but so far, I couldn't find any good tutorials explaining some basics,
but maybe I've used the wrong keywords...

Regards,
Tim

PS: Attached one of my first feeble attempts. :-)

-- 
"Tim Nikias v2.0"
Homepage: <http://www.nolights.de>
Email: tim.nikias (@) nolights.de

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Attachments:
Download '1stship.jpg' (50 KB)

Preview of image '1stship.jpg'

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 02:20:30 -0000, "St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote:

> Jim, that is just fantastic! I love it!

So do I.

Regards
        Stephen

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>POV-Ray's CSG and script-based meshes. Not that I really want to become a
>pro in that area, but you never know...
Everything can't be done in POV-Ray SDL, even not if you're only doing it
for fun ;) But POV-Ray + Wings3d is an excellent combination.
Anyway, I don't think I can ever start using a combination of 3d programs
where I can't use #while and #declare, it bothers me just thinking about
it! :)

>Anyway, do you have any good links where they explain a little about
>modelling? This model looks awesome compared to what I'm fiddling around
>with, but so far, I couldn't find any good tutorials explaining some basics,
>but maybe I've used the wrong keywords...
Try to look around in the Wings3D forum ( you find it at
http://www.wings3d.com ), there's a lot of nice tips and tricks to pick up
there.
But I belive the best method is just to play around and model a lot.

>PS: Attached one of my first feeble attempts. :-)
Nice, much better than my first.

-Peter

Post a reply to this message

> Try to look around in the Wings3D forum ( you find it at
> http://www.wings3d.com ), there's a lot of nice tips and tricks to pick up
> there.

Thanks, I'll have a look there.

> But I belive the best method is just to play around and model a lot.

Experience is everything, right-on about that.

> >PS: Attached one of my first feeble attempts. :-)
> Nice, much better than my first.

Thanks! Had a technical advisor (my younger brother), he uses some Maya PLE,
but since I don't have the money to buy Maya, I'd give Freeware a go and
look into commercial programms later.

Regards,
Tim

-- 
"Tim Nikias v2.0"
Homepage: <http://www.nolights.de>
Email: tim.nikias (@) nolights.de

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Jim Charter wrote:

>I always liked Jaimes observation that he attempts 
> only what he can realistically accomplish.

If I lived by that rule, I'd just sit and look at pictures -- well, 
maybe an occasional sphere & checkered plane.

Fantastic image, BTW

Dave Matthews

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"Tim Nikias v2.0" <tim.nikias (@) nolights.de> a écrit dans le message de
news:400501d7@news.povray.org...

> Anyway, do you have any good links where they explain a little about
> modelling? This model looks awesome compared to what I'm fiddling around
> with, but so far, I couldn't find any good tutorials explaining some
basics,
> but maybe I've used the wrong keywords...

IIRC, Jim has a formal art training and is an accomplished traditional
painter (see his website), which is a great advantage in 3D from what I've
seen from other traditional media artists who turned to 3D.
Did you do the "dog house" tutorial in the Wings3d manual? It probably
taught me most of what I had to know about modelling in Wings.

G.


-- 

**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

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Jim Charter wrote:

>Greg M. Johnson wrote:
>> But the hair doesn't look like that on an old monkey.
>> Perhaps it needs specular.
>>
>>
>
> I adopted your three-sided, segmented mesh
> technique to build the hair.
>

While I have put a mesh macro out there, but I'm too much of a realist not
to believe you're made a misattribution.


Greg M. Johnson.

Post a reply to this message

Tim Nikias v2.0 wrote:
> With Wings3D, eh? I've been fiddling around with that modeller lately as
> well, simply because I want to get some experience on modelling. Won't go
> very far professionally if I don't do some mesh-modelling and just stick to
> POV-Ray's CSG and script-based meshes. Not that I really want to become a
> pro in that area, but you never know...

Cool.  Well obviously some people have worked hard to put mesh support 
in POV.  So why not model mesh and render in POV?  Modellers used to be 
expensive and hard to find but not so anymore.  Seems they are 
everywhere now.  They must be teaching how to do that in Computer 
Science school these days.  Actually I also find the idea of doing still 
life with csg and procedural textures also very compelling.  But when 
Wings came on the scene I was getting into some complicated transparent 
textures which took a long time to render and often crashed my machine.
Modelling in Wings was faster and didn't crash as much and I have a long 
time interest in the figure art tradition anyway.  It is fascinating how 
the world of commercial illustration has completely coopted that 
tradition and now with computer animation is having its day in the sun.
Its presence is hard to ignore and while some amateurs are taking some 
interesting directions, the whole hobbiest thing seems to be basically 
riffing on the directions the commercial world takes.

> 
> Anyway, do you have any good links where they explain a little about
> modelling? 

The tutorials thread on the Wings forums is a good starting point.
http://pub161.ezboard.com/fnendowingsmiraifrm7
Let me emphasize 'starting point' not 'end point'.  I used to go there 
with no purpose in particular except that I wanted to study modelling 
and I'd start linking around.  I found it at least as effective as 
google searching

There is a modelling forum at CGTalk
http://www.cgtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?s=614386f96e8a33186aeee9460ae3f376&forumid=25
also a Wings / Blender forum there that has a couple of "tutorials" threads
http://www.cgtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?s=614386f96e8a33186aeee9460ae3f376&forumid=83&pagenumber=1&sortfield=lastpost&sortorder=desc&daysprune=100&x=10&y=14
I found the boards at CGTalk to be pretty lively and the talent that 
shows up for their "challenges" looks pretty good to me.  There is a 
moderator over there, Leigh van der Byl
http://leigh.cgcommunity.com/
who's a lot of fun.  Wears body jewellery and gets the boys all stirred 
up.  She's a poly-by-poly modeller by comparison

There is also a Wings forum at Renderosity
http://www.renderosity.com/forums.ez?Form.sess_id=3655170&Form.sess_key=1062811609

As far as actual tutorials, I am very stingy with my time I guess.  I 
only really studied this tutorial.  Wiro contributes to CGTalk also. 
This tut gives you a pretty coherent set of mechanics and also keeps in 
site the higher purpose of creating form.  But again, my specific 
interest is in organic subjects.
http://www.secondreality.ch/tutorials/modelling/head.html

Famously there is this link:
http://cube.phlatt.net/forums/spiraloid/index.php

It's not just that Bay Raitt shows up.  It's also that it tries to treat 
modelling, or what they call "digital sculpting" as a study in itself. 
And further, what they mean by it is what is commonly called "box 
modelling" which is to start with a primative, usually a "box" and 
selectively cut the faces to create your shape, always keeping the major 
volumes in mind. This technique resonates with me because it seems 
related to classical drawing techniques that I've always studied and 
admired. ( Find the major plane break, then the secondary plane breaks 
and so on ). This technique is championed by Raitt (along with some talk 
about "edge loops" which I still don't get), and is a technique that 
Wings is particularily adapted for.  Wings, as you know, must always 
produce closed, volumetric meshes with no open edged polys.  Wings' 
fairly stripped down tool set is oriented to face cutting and extruding. 
  Further more Wings is written to resemble Mirai, a tool that as I 
understand it, Raitt has some involvement with developing.  I have even 
seen him show up on the Wings boards and offer Bjorn some encouragement. 
  So Wings does seem to have some congruence with the commercial world.

> 
> PS: Attached one of my first feeble attempts. :-)
> 
> 

I remember seeing that tutorial I think ;)  Nice job.
If you keep it up, I think there is only good news for you.  I have 
found that I have progressed even though I took a long hiatus from it 
back when I was writing my little irtc 'reviews'.  When I tried 
modelling figures for Gena's Capriccio project I sort of hit a wall. 
But I'm seeing some gradual prgress.  You will too.
-Jim

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"Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote in message
news:4004b17d$1@news.povray.org...
> Greg M. Johnson wrote:
> > Breathtaking, 'cept the hair just isn't right for an actual
silverback....

> Yes you are right.  It is actually based on a chimp and the hair should
> be black, and the skin a kind of dirty pumpkin yellow.

Actually only old chimpanzee have that dirty pumpkin yellow colored skin.
Youg ones tend to have a pink purple orange thing going on ^___^
But humans too tend to have a dirty pumpkin yellow color after a good case
of lever problems ^___^

Jean-luc: Well, yes I know but are you sure that thing was nuclear?

Post a reply to this message

"Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote in message
news:4004b556$1@news.povray.org...
> Jean-luc Songa Butera wrote:
> > Judging by the ears and the shape of the back of the head I would rather
say
> > it's a chimpanze ^___^

> Obviously you know your primates.

After so many years watching myself in the mirror I cas safely say that I
have a good eye for spotting them ^___^

> I was working from a fairly lousy b/w
> photo (of a chimp) that I found on the web, but I finally went to a
> second hand bookstore to see if I could find some better pictures.
> Particularily of the eyes and skin color.  Anyway I found a nice little
> picture book featuring chimps, baboons, and gorillas mostly.  So I am
> learning to discriminate.

Or use the old recycling trick:
Take a human head mesh
Move forward the lower part of its face
Widen the back of the jaw bone
Smash its nose up into its skull
Compress the back of its skull to lose 60% of its volume
and... You should have something in the line of a primate mesh.
Side note: Do NEVER do that to a real human model, it seems that there are
laws that forbit it ^___^

Jean-luc: I didn't know that the big red button was to destroy everything!

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gregjohn wrote:

> Jim Charter wrote:
> 
> 
>>Greg M. Johnson wrote:
>>
>>>But the hair doesn't look like that on an old monkey.
>>>Perhaps it needs specular.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I adopted your three-sided, segmented mesh
>>technique to build the hair.
>>
> 
> 
> While I have put a mesh macro out there, but I'm too much of a realist not
> to believe you're made a misattribution.
> 
> 
> Greg M. Johnson.
> 
> 
Oops, it was Doug Eichenburg.  Thanks Greg, sorry Doug.

You're both young guys, super technicians doing edgy stuff and live 
somewhere in that upstate direction.

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"Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote in message
news:400485b8@news.povray.org...
> There is more wrong with this than right,

Ummm...  Yeah, whatever... ;-)

Amazing work, Jim!  This is breath-taking, in my opinion.

I would like to hear more elaboration on how you did the hair, and how CPU
and memory intensive it was, etc., if you wouldn't mind.

-- 
Jeremy
www.beantoad.com

Post a reply to this message

> Did you do the "dog house" tutorial in the Wings3d manual? It probably
> taught me most of what I had to know about modelling in Wings.

Nope, didn't, but now I'll do it once I get the time, if you say it's
useful, it should be... Just today I attempted (and failed) at a head, but I
wasn't expecting much. It was merely gathering experience with the handling
and all, though the result doesn't look too bad (but not really good either
:-).

Regards,
Tim

-- 
"Tim Nikias v2.0"
Homepage: <http://www.nolights.de>
Email: tim.nikias (@) nolights.de

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"Gilles Tran" <tra### [at] inapginrafr> wrote in message
news:40054c73@news.povray.org...

> Did you do the "dog house" tutorial in the Wings3d manual? It probably
> taught me most of what I had to know about modelling in Wings.
>
Thanks for the nudge, Giles.  That's high praise, coming from you.

Rich

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In article <4004ab32$1@news.povray.org>, bs1### [at] skynetbe 
says...
> "Greg M. Johnson" <gregj;-)565### [at] aolcom> wrote in message
> news:4004a73b$1@news.povray.org...
> > Breathtaking, 'cept the hair just isn't right for an actual silverback....
> 
> Judging by the ears and the shape of the back of the head I would rather say
> it's a chimpanze 

I'd guess a chimp of some sort, but I can't say whether it's Pan pan, or 
Pan troglodytes.

More likely the latter, of advanced years ;)

Jamie.

Post a reply to this message

great modelling forum:
http://cube.phlatt.net/forums/spiraloid/index.php

Tim Nikias v2.0 wrote:

> Anyway, do you have any good links where they explain a little about
> modelling? This model looks awesome compared to what I'm fiddling around
> with, but so far, I couldn't find any good tutorials explaining some basics,
> but maybe I've used the wrong keywords...

Post a reply to this message

Jim Charter wrote:
> 
> John VanSickle wrote:
> 
> > Well, maybe not a silverback gorilla, but one could easily
> > hypothesize an isolate group of hominids that survived.
> 
> BTW I know you are working on a mesh modeller.  I am generating the
> hair direction in POV by tracing splines along the surface of the
> figure.  In this picture I used the trace function.  In my next try I
> want to use the fact that Wings allows you to assign materials to
> individual polys.
>   So when I export to .obj, I can use this to parse out a hand drawn
> sequence of vertices and their normals.  It would be easier to be able
> to merely export selected vertices and their normals to a text file,
> then POV it from there.

The fellow who develops Wings3D has been in contact with me about my
surface subidvision code, so there is some cross-pollinization going
on.  Once I can get uv-mapping working right, my own modeller will
probably appear in public.  I used it for one of the models in one of
my IRTC entries for the current round (I did a Rusty and a spin-off).

Regards,
John

Post a reply to this message

Jim Charter wrote:
> 
> Now that I have a book to look at, the hair seems to vary a lot, even
> between individuals in a species.  The source photo I was using did
> seem to show pretty scraggy hair, which I took to mean "old" also.
> Other chimps have more tuffed hair, in others its softer, more aligned
> in waves.  None look quite as wiry as in my picture though.

But it looks good.  If this were a species of intelligent life, I
could easily believe one of their old men (or women) having hair like
this.

Regards,
John

Post a reply to this message

John VanSickle wrote:

> 
> The fellow who develops Wings3D has been in contact with me about my
> surface subidvision code, so there is some cross-pollinization going
> on.  Once I can get uv-mapping working right, my own modeller will
> probably appear in public.  

I'll be looking foreward to trying it.

-Jim

Post a reply to this message

Jeremy M. Praay wrote:

> 
> Amazing work, Jim!  This is breath-taking, in my opinion.
>
Thanks Jeremy

> I would like to hear more elaboration on how you did the hair, and how CPU
> and memory intensive it was, etc., if you wouldn't mind.
> 
Yeah I know you have been attacking the hair problem too. That's partly 
why I posted this example.  Give me a day or two and I'll put something 
together.  I am actually working with a new way to do the hair which 
looks quite promising but is buggy at the moment.  Then maybe I can show 
you both methods.  I was using mesh, but not instancing, and that render 
took around 40 min I think with Jaime's lighting which includes radiosity.

I never could have done it before I fixed the case fan which seems to 
have solved my overheating problems.  I am beginning to think that while 
my processor was heating up, so was everything else and it may be the 
video card that was actually flaking out.  That might explain why it 
seems to be heat related, even though I was only taking the palomino up 
to 60 degrees before crashing.

I have half a gig of memory installed and no where near all of it gets 
used.  But that guy going to need a lot more hair before he's finished.

Post a reply to this message

Gilles Tran wrote:

> 
> IIRC, Jim has a formal art training and is an accomplished traditional
> painter (see his website), which is a great advantage in 3D from what I've
> seen from other traditional media artists who turned to 3D.

It is also true that I was first introduced to mesh modelling in an 
instructor-lead, Maya class.  So that when I came to Wings, I had the 
concept.  I knew what I wanted to do.  I just had to learn how.

-Jim

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wow!
-- 
Rick

Kitty5 NewMedia http://Kitty5.com
POV-Ray News & Resources http://Povray.co.uk
TEL : +44 (01270) 501101 - ICQ : 15776037

PGP Public Key : http://pgp.kitty5.com

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Hillary!

Jim

"Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote in message
news:400485b8@news.povray.org...
> There is more wrong with this than right, but I wanted to show the
> direction I have being working in.  This actually started as an entry
> for "future" but has turned into a more measured project to teach myself
> organic modelling, texturing, hair generation etc.  It's going to take a
> while to get something really showable.
> No sss in place yet.
> Modelled in Wings
> Lighting by Jaime
> Bumpmaps and image maps generated in PS
> Uvmapped in uvmapper
>


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

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Jeremy M. Praay wrote:


> 
> I would like to hear more elaboration on how you did the hair, and how CPU
> 
Okay.

1. I used the trace macro to find a lines of points on the surface of 
the figure to describe the direction of the hair.  Splines are generated 
  from these points.  One spline alone the surface for the hair roots. 
One spline from points along the normals to place the end points of the 
hairs

2. The splines are sampled to get start, end, and midpoints, for each 
hair.  These points are use to create a spline.  Each hair is then built
by placing mesh along the spline

3. The hair spline can be modulated by sampling a smooth pattern such as 
bozo and using the values to rotate the midpoints slightly around the normal

4. The placement of each hair is also jittered

But the original method of tracing points to establish the hair 
direction was time consuming and cumbersome.  So going forward I plan to 
use the following method to establish the direction splines

5. In Wings, nine different materials can be assigned to nine selected 
points

6. With all nine points selected, they can be exported as a .obj mesh 
file.  In the mesh file, each polygon or 'face' is tagged with a 
separate material. e.g.

g cube1_1a
usemtl 1a
f 19//19 31//31 10//10 1//1
g cube1_1b
usemtl 1b
f 11//11 34//34 24//24 3//3
g cube1_1c
usemtl 1c
f 12//12 33//33 21//21 2//2
g cube1_2a
usemtl 2a
f 6//6 18//18 30//30 17//17
g cube1_2b
usemtl 2b
f 8//8 22//22 29//29 23//23
g cube1_2c
usemtl 2c
f 16//16 36//36 15//15 4//4
g cube1_3a
usemtl 3a
f 20//20 35//35 27//27 7//7
g cube1_3b
usemtl 3b
f 9//9 26//26 32//32 25//25
g cube1_3c
usemtl 3c
f 13//13 28//28 14//14 5//5

7. The obj mesh file can be parsed in a separate program and one of the 
four vertices and normals fo each face can be retrieved

8. These points can be used to generate the direction splines.

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"Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote in message
news:400485b8@news.povray.org...

Jesus, Jim, you sure know how to play it cool. A few weeks ago, you
posted a link in p.o-t to the work of a modeler whom you admired. Now
you post this, which is twice as good as any of his stuff.

I have wondered if something like this:
http://news.povray.org/povray.binaries.images/23494/
might produce better looking, less memory eating hair at the expense of
greater rendering time.

 -Shay

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Shay wrote:


> posted a link in p.o-t to the work of a modeler whom you admired. Now
> you post this, which is twice as good as any of his stuff.
>

Er..., not yet, but when I get it to where I want it to be,... maybe, 
definitely maybe ;)  Thanks for the boost.  Since I know you say exactly 
what you think, I means a lot to me.

> I have wondered if something like this:
> http://news.povray.org/povray.binaries.images/23494/
> might produce better looking, less memory eating hair at the expense of
> greater rendering time.
> 

I do plan to try that.  I do expect the render time to hurt.  I will see 
how far I can take the mesh first.

-Jim

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