I'm trying to make a human model with muscle-flexing.  The results so 
far aren't really exciting, but I thought it might be interesting to 
share them :)

Two problems though: I only found a detailed muscle-by-muscle 
description of the arms and torso, none for the hands or legs, so 
that'll probably be just a guess once I get to it.  Second problem: I 
can't do it with 1 blob, because limbs would blob together if they get 
too close to each other.  But if I do it in different blob-objects, the 
seams are visible :-/ Anyone has an idea how to solve this? :-/

anyway, please let me know what you think.  Good so far?  Or am I just 
wasting my time? :)

cu!
-- 
#macro G(b,e)b+(e-b)*C/50#end#macro _(b,e,k,l)#local C=0;#while(C<50)
sphere{G(b,e)+3*z.1pigment{rgb G(k,l)}finish{ambient 1}}#local C=C+1;
#end#end _(y-x,y,x,x+y)_(y,-x-y,x+y,y)_(-x-y,-y,y,y+z)_(-y,y,y+z,x+y)
_(0x+y.5+y/2x)_(0x-y.5+y/2x)            // ZK http://www.povplace.com

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Attachments:
Download 'muscles.m1v.mpg' (703 KB)

> "Zeger Knaepen" <zeg### [at] povplacecom> wrote in message 
> news:43b86f66@news.povray.org...
> I'm trying to make a human model with muscle-flexing.  The results so far
> aren't really exciting, but I thought it might be interesting to share 
> them :)

> Two problems though: I only found a detailed muscle-by-muscle description
> of the arms and torso, none for the hands or legs, so that'll probably be 
> just a
> guess once I get to it.  Second problem: I can't do it with 1 blob, 
> because limbs
> would blob together if they get too close to each other.  But if I do it 
> in different
> blob-objects, the seams are visible :-/ Anyone has an idea how to solve 
> this? :-/
>
> anyway, please let me know what you think.  Good so far?
> Or am I just wasting my time? :)


Hi Zeger,

I think that looks very good. I'm impressed.
I have a much less sophisticated human model made of blobs and have a few 
rambling thoughts on how to get rid of the seams.

1. When working on the clothing, I developed a set of macros to scan a 
blob-based limb, generating an array of points and ultimately a smooth mesh.
This generates seam-free clothing and it occurred to me that I could 
probably use the same principle to go back and do a seam free body.

2. An alternative idea is to model the muscles at either end of each body 
part, then trim the unwanted bits off again before assembling all the body 
parts.
So the palm of the hand could be modelled with the muscles reaching out into 
the base of each finger, and the base of each finger could be modelled with 
the muscles reaching back into the palm. Then use CSG to slice the finger 
pieces off the palm, so that any bits of finger interfering with each other 
would be trimmed away. If you use the same plane to cut a piece of finger 
away from the palm that you use to cut the palm away from the finger 
segment, then most of the joins should be a pretty good fit.

(time-wasting is such a subjective concept. :o)

Regards,
Chris B.

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"Chris B" <c_b### [at] btconnectcomnospam> wrote in message
news:43b88e39$1@news.povray.org...
> Hi Zeger,
>
> I think that looks very good. I'm impressed.

thank you! :)

> I have a much less sophisticated human model made of blobs and have a few
> rambling thoughts on how to get rid of the seams.

oh, can I see your model? :)

> 1. When working on the clothing, I developed a set of macros to scan a
> blob-based limb, generating an array of points and ultimately a smooth mesh.
> This generates seam-free clothing and it occurred to me that I could
> probably use the same principle to go back and do a seam free body.

not a bad idea !  the "bones" of the arm are spline-based, I might be able to a
radial scan along the spline !

> 2. An alternative idea is to model the muscles at either end of each body
> part, then trim the unwanted bits off again before assembling all the body
> parts.
> So the palm of the hand could be modelled with the muscles reaching out into
> the base of each finger, and the base of each finger could be modelled with
> the muscles reaching back into the palm. Then use CSG to slice the finger
> pieces off the palm, so that any bits of finger interfering with each other
> would be trimmed away. If you use the same plane to cut a piece of finger
> away from the palm that you use to cut the palm away from the finger
> segment, then most of the joins should be a pretty good fit.

problem is that I can't even make the arm in one piece.  In this animation
there's already to much blobbing near the elbow (well, the other side of the
elbow... what's the name for that? :)), so I would have to recreate only the
lower part of the upperarm for the lowerarm (if that's what's it called), but
the muscles run all the way from the top to the elbow.  Difficult! :)

> (time-wasting is such a subjective concept. :o)

true :)  But if someone already made something similar, it would be kind of
pointless to do it all over again, unless I would do it better, which is not
very likely :)

cu!
--
#macro G(b,e)b+(e-b)*C/50#end#macro _(b,e,k,l)#local C=0;#while(C<50)
sphere{G(b,e)+3*z.1pigment{rgb G(k,l)}finish{ambient 1}}#local C=C+1;
#end#end _(y-x,y,x,x+y)_(y,-x-y,x+y,y)_(-x-y,-y,y,y+z)_(-y,y,y+z,x+y)
_(0x+y.5+y/2x)_(0x-y.5+y/2x)            // ZK http://www.povplace.com

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"Zeger Knaepen" <zeg### [at] povplacecom> wrote in message 
news:43b985fa$1@news.povray.org...
> oh, can I see your model? :)

There's an animation at
http://news.povray.org/povray.binaries.animations/thread/%3C43415866%40news.povray.org%3E/
As I said, nowhere near as sophisticated as what you are attempting.
If you want any of the source just let me know. (but there's a lot of it).

> ... if someone already made something similar, it would be kind of
> pointless to do it all over again, unless I would do it better, which is 
> not
> very likely :)
>

I don't recall seeing anyone trying to accurately simulate muscles the way 
you're doing it (using blobs).
There is a blob man out there (Blobman 4.2), but it doesn't simulate moving 
muscles and I've see various non-POV based attempts at modelling muscles.

Regards,
Chris B.

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"Chris B" <c_b### [at] btconnectcomnospam> wrote in message
news:43b9a06f@news.povray.org...
>
> "Zeger Knaepen" <zeg### [at] povplacecom> wrote in message
> news:43b985fa$1@news.povray.org...
> > oh, can I see your model? :)
>
> There's an animation at
>
http://news.povray.org/povray.binaries.animations/thread/%3C43415866%40news.povr
ay.org%3E/
> As I said, nowhere near as sophisticated as what you are attempting.
> If you want any of the source just let me know. (but there's a lot of it).

weird, I replied to that message, back then, saying that I couldn't see it :)
No problem now, and really, I'm impressed !  Very natural motion, and nice job
on the clothes !
I'm interested in the source, but if it's too much work, then it's ok :)

> > ... if someone already made something similar, it would be kind of
> > pointless to do it all over again, unless I would do it better, which is
> > not
> > very likely :)
> >
>
> I don't recall seeing anyone trying to accurately simulate muscles the way
> you're doing it (using blobs).

Neither have I, but well, google doesn't find everything :)

> There is a blob man out there (Blobman 4.2), but it doesn't simulate moving
> muscles

My main problem with blobman is that it has wrong proportions: the head is way
to big :(  I'm trying to make my blobman fully customizable: you can choose the
size of the head, the proportions of the body, and I would even like to make it
so that you can make other creatures with it, don't know if that'll work though
:)

> and I've see various non-POV based attempts at modelling muscles.

yes, but I'm a terrible modeller, everything I do is pure SDL :)

Don't know why, I just don't like GUI's with a big G I'm afraid :(

cu!
--
#macro G(b,e)b+(e-b)*C/50#end#macro _(b,e,k,l)#local C=0;#while(C<50)
sphere{G(b,e)+3*z.1pigment{rgb G(k,l)}finish{ambient 1}}#local C=C+1;
#end#end _(y-x,y,x,x+y)_(y,-x-y,x+y,y)_(-x-y,-y,y,y+z)_(-y,y,y+z,x+y)
_(0x+y.5+y/2x)_(0x-y.5+y/2x)            // ZK http://www.povplace.com


cu!

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Zeger Knaepen wrote:
> I'm trying to make a human model with muscle-flexing.  The results so far aren't
really exciting, but I thought it might be interesting to share them :)
> 
> Two problems though: I only found a detailed muscle-by-muscle description of the
arms and torso, none for the hands or legs, so that'll probably be just a guess once I
get to it.  Second problem: I can't do it with 1 blob, because limbs would blob
together if they get too close to each other.  But if I do it in different
blob-objects, the seams are visible :-/ Anyone has an idea how to solve this? :-/
> 
> anyway, please let me know what you think.  Good so far?  Or am I just wasting my
time? :)
> 
> cu!

looks impressive; good work !

I had something similar in mind for quite some time and was stumbling 
over the same problem.
Making the diffrent muscles out of blobs, but how to "skin" them.
One possible solution came in to my mind (but I didn`t tried it because 
I'm afraid it's terrible slow) is to define the muscles as 
blob-functions and then in the "skinning" step use another blob-function 
to seamlessly join this functions togehter.
Could be worth trying ....

.. dave ..

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"David El Tom" <dav### [at] t-onlinede> wrote in message 
news:43ba46f6@news.povray.org...
> looks impressive; good work !

Thankyou !
 
> I had something similar in mind for quite some time and was stumbling 
> over the same problem.
> Making the diffrent muscles out of blobs, but how to "skin" them.
> One possible solution came in to my mind (but I didn`t tried it 
because 
> I'm afraid it's terrible slow) is to define the muscles as 
> blob-functions and then in the "skinning" step use another 
blob-function 
> to seamlessly join this functions togehter.
> Could be worth trying ....

I'm not really sure I understand it completely :-/

cu!
-- 
#macro G(b,e)b+(e-b)*C/50#end#macro _(b,e,k,l)#local C=0;#while(C<50)
sphere{G(b,e)+3*z.1pigment{rgb G(k,l)}finish{ambient 1}}#local C=C+1;
#end#end _(y-x,y,x,x+y)_(y,-x-y,x+y,y)_(-x-y,-y,y,y+z)_(-y,y,y+z,x+y)
_(0x+y.5+y/2x)_(0x-y.5+y/2x)            // ZK http://www.povplace.com

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Freaky stuff, Zeger. I'm sure that couldn't be an easy thing to animate. 
Reminds me the people Greg Johnson has created over the past few years but I 
don't remember how he actually makes those guys.

You didn't mention any use of negative strength component parts so you might 
want to give that a try if you haven't already done that. In my somewhat 
limited experience with the POV blob I know it can get real tricky placing 
blob components with good strength and threshold since, like you said, when 
using a single blob for such things as this arm animation, it ultimately 
tangles in on itself unless something is done to force spacing where needed. 
Even moreso, with negative strength parts I think it would get extremely 
complicated to fit the parts together for animation. Just a still image 
could be more plausible, but animate that and it means many positions to 
account for. However, if you do manage to work it out please post another 
animation!

Bob

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"Zeger Knaepen" <zeg### [at] povplacecom> wrote in message 
news:43b9b0a7@news.povray.org...
> "Chris B" <c_b### [at] btconnectcomnospam> wrote in message
> news:43b9a06f@news.povray.org...
>
> I'm interested in the source, but if it's too much work, then it's ok :)
>

I've been meaning to publish it for a while, I just got sidetracked adding a 
Santa model that I failed to complete by Christmas anyway.
Also the documentation isn't complete yet.
I've put a copy on the povray.binaries.scene-files newsgroup as 'POV-Person 
V2 Alpha'.

> I'm trying to make my blobman fully customizable: you can choose the
> size of the head, the proportions of the body, and I would even like to 
> make it
> so that you can make other creatures with it, don't know if that'll work 
> though
>

My thinking is much the same. I've layered the macros so that the core 
functions will work with any anatomical construct (although a human form is 
the only one I've included so far).
I've kept the major body parts separate and extensively parameter 
controlled, so that they can be shared between different characters (I also 
have a separate 'scale' include file to for each character to enable each 
body part to be scaled appropriately. For example, for the moment I've used 
the same body parts for the male and female characters, but for the chest 
I've used different parameters to control the anatomical construction and 
for legs and arms I've just scaled the parts (all fairly crude still).

> Don't know why, I just don't like GUI's with a big G I'm afraid :(
>

I know the feeling. I used a modeller for the first few heads, but I'm 
gradually replacing that with SDL so that it can be modified dynamically.
On the more recent models I've got mesh eyelids that open and close and lips 
that are dynamically generated.

David's suggestion could be good. I think he's suggesting using an 
isosurface where you can use functions to define shapes and use the methods 
described in Mike Williams' isosurface tutorial to 'blob' them together.
I've used that for the top of the head of my Santa model (see pps2face.inc 
in the xip file). It gets quite mathematical quite quickly though and he's 
right when he says that isosurfaces increase the render time. On my to-do 
list is to scan the isosurface I get for the head shape and build a mesh to 
render, for two reasons. Firstly it'll render quicker. Second, the straight 
edges of the meshes I plan to use for the eyelids and mouth will join more 
easily with a mesh than with the totally smooth isosurface.

Regards,
Chris B.

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"Bob Hughes" <omniverse@charter%net> wrote in message 
news:43bb0a76$1@news.povray.org...
> Freaky stuff, Zeger. I'm sure that couldn't be an easy thing to 
animate. 

It was as easy to animate it as it was to make it, actually :)
You see, I made a muscle() macro that connects 2 points with a blob that 
tries to keep the same, given volume.  Not entirely accurate, but it 
more or less does the job :)

> Reminds me the people Greg Johnson has created over the past few years 
but I 
> don't remember how he actually makes those guys.

with a lot of work, I suppose :)
 
> You didn't mention any use of negative strength component parts so you 
might 
> want to give that a try if you haven't already done that.

Hmm, I might be able to force something with negative strength, don't 
know if I can automate it though :-/

> In my somewhat 
> limited experience with the POV blob I know it can get real tricky 
placing 
> blob components with good strength and threshold since, like you said, 
when 
> using a single blob for such things as this arm animation, it 
ultimately 
> tangles in on itself unless something is done to force spacing where 
needed. 
> Even moreso, with negative strength parts I think it would get 
extremely 
> complicated to fit the parts together for animation. Just a still 
image 
> could be more plausible, but animate that and it means many positions 
to 
> account for. However, if you do manage to work it out please post 
another 
> animation!

Maybe if I put negative strength blobcomponents on one side of the 
muscles, that prevent any other part of the body to "blob" onto that 
muscle...  just thinking out loud here, I don't know if that even makes 
sense :)

cu!
-- 
#macro G(b,e)b+(e-b)*C/50#end#macro _(b,e,k,l)#local C=0;#while(C<50)
sphere{G(b,e)+3*z.1pigment{rgb G(k,l)}finish{ambient 1}}#local C=C+1;
#end#end _(y-x,y,x,x+y)_(y,-x-y,x+y,y)_(-x-y,-y,y,y+z)_(-y,y,y+z,x+y)
_(0x+y.5+y/2x)_(0x-y.5+y/2x)            // ZK http://www.povplace.com

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