hi,

Cousin Ricky <ric### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> ...
> One way to solve this would be to declare a single pair of variables
> that would be used by all six include files.  Third party include files
> would be encouraged to access these variables.  What do you think of
> this proposal?  Does anyone have a better idea?

given that the typical use case is a scene file doing '#include's, a single
"guard" would be nice + easy from the user point of view.


regards, jr.

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On 2022-03-08 07:40 (-4), Bald Eagle wrote:
> Cousin Ricky <ric### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> 
>> One way to solve this would be to declare a single pair of variables
>> that would be used by all six include files.  Third party include files
>> would be encouraged to access these variables.  What do you think of
>> this proposal?  Does anyone have a better idea?
> 
> Absent my current ability to formulate ways other than that one, I'd say that
> starting all of those include files with an #include statement that references a
> master include would be a good way to do it, in case any future tweaks happened.

What do you all think of the attached file?  Are there any other
variables we can add?

I added Defaults_Gamma in case an include file needs to correct for a
scene's assumed_gamma.  (I already have 2 Object Collection modules that
need to know a scene's assumed_gamma in order to return a proper color.)

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Attachments:
Download 'defaults.inc.zip' (1 KB)

hi,

Cousin Ricky <ric### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> ...
> What do you all think of the attached file?  Are there any other
> variables we can add?

a good start ?  (a lot of uppercase letters.. </grin>)

unsure if it is "in the spirit", but a "dedicated" font (preferred TTF) default,
for "post installation" ?


> I added Defaults_Gamma in case an include file needs to correct for a
> scene's assumed_gamma.  (I already have 2 Object Collection modules that
> need to know a scene's assumed_gamma in order to return a proper color.)

given the name and the purpose[*] of the file, I tried using 'include_header' to
load it.  it seems that for the system-wide 'povray.ini' that keyword won't
work.  for my personal file (~/.povray/3.8.povray.ini) I needed to add a
'#version version;' line to 'defaults.inc', before the guard, to avoid the 'as
of version 3.7' error message.

[*] I am looking at it not as the first include in other include files but as an
"always load", ideally.

of interest, loading via 'include_header' works with alpha.99456327 (displaying
the 'Defaults_Epsilon' value), but not for the beta.2.  may be a case of how
things are set up here, can anyone please confirm ?


regards, jr.

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"jr" <cre### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> ...
> of interest, loading via 'include_header' works with alpha.99456327 (displaying
> the 'Defaults_Epsilon' value), but not for the beta.2.  may be a case of how
> things are set up here, can anyone please confirm ?

both work fine, and using 'include_header' in the respective system-wide
'povray.ini' too works; I'd forgotten my using a 'POVINI' in the (BASH)
functions used to invoke povray :-(, sorry about that.

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On 2025-12-28 05:58 (-4), jr wrote:
> 
> given the name and the purpose[*] of the file, I tried using 'include_header' to
> load it.

I am not familiar with 'include_header', and cannot find any mention of
it in the documentation or include files.  What does this do?

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hi,

Cousin Ricky <ric### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> ...
> I am not familiar with 'include_header', and cannot find any mention of
> it in the documentation or include files.  What does this do?

to use, add the this to your (global) 'povray.ini' file:

  include_header = /path/to/defaults.inc

guessing the path may be optional if the files are stored in same directory.

this causes the named file to be included, as first thing, before the
scene/frame parsing gets underway.

<wiki.povray.org/content/Reference:Scene_Parsing_Options#Include_File_Name>

in my installed 3.8 documentation it's under "3.2.5.2 Scene Parsing Options".

(fwiw, you may need to refresh your browser's cache before revisiting the wiki's
'Reference:Keywords' page)


regards, jr.

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On 2026-01-05 02:46 (-4), jr wrote:
> 
> Cousin Ricky <ric### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
>> ...
>> I am not familiar with 'include_header', and cannot find any mention of
>> it in the documentation or include files.  What does this do?
> 
> to use, add the this to your (global) 'povray.ini' file:
> 
>   include_header = /path/to/defaults.inc
> 
> guessing the path may be optional if the files are stored in same directory.
> 
> this causes the named file to be included, as first thing, before the
> scene/frame parsing gets underway.

This would defeat what I had in mind for the file.  The file would be
referenced by textures.inc, metals.inc, etc., but if the user wants
different defaults, they need to be #declared *before* these other files
are #included.

This is not a problem with the file as I posted it, but I was going to
post a new version of defaults.inc that set assumed_gamma and #default
finish automatically, to save the user a bit of redundancy.  If used via
'Include_Header', the global settings and #defaults would be set before
the scene file has a chance to tell it otherwise.

With my original version, this catch-22 is avoided by including
textures.inc, etc. *after* changing the default idenfifiers, but then
the scene file still has to set assumed_gamma and #default explicitly.

Where is Bald Eagle?  I'm sure he has some good input.

> <wiki.povray.org/content/Reference:Scene_Parsing_Options#Include_File_Name>
> 
> in my installed 3.8 documentation it's under "3.2.5.2 Scene Parsing Options".

Ah, this explains why I couldn't find it.  I looked for it under
keywords, and when it wasn't there. I did a global search on the
documentation, but the search was case sensitive.  In the docs, the word
is mixed case.

> (fwiw, you may need to refresh your browser's cache before revisiting the wiki's
> 'Reference:Keywords' page)

I searched on my local installation, not on the wiki.

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hi,

Cousin Ricky <ric### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> On 2026-01-05 02:46 (-4), jr wrote:
> > ...
> > to use, add the this to your (global) 'povray.ini' file:
> >
> >   include_header = /path/to/defaults.inc
> > ...
> This would defeat what I had in mind for the file.  The file would be
> referenced by textures.inc, metals.inc, etc., but if the user wants
> different defaults, they need to be #declared *before* these other files
> are #included.

that is exactly what happens, the declarations in 'defaults.inc' are then
available in the scene, and all its includes.


> This is not a problem with the file as I posted it, but I was going to
> post a new version of defaults.inc that set assumed_gamma and #default
> finish automatically, to save the user a bit of redundancy.  If used via
> 'Include_Header', the global settings and #defaults would be set before
> the scene file has a chance to tell it otherwise.

ah, here we "part company" :-), I do not think _setting_ any values (in advance)
will actually be helpful.  likely I misunderstood yr intent, I thought the file
should allow having one or more "sensible" pre-declared values, one of which
I/user can then use.


> ...
> Where is Bald Eagle?  I'm sure he has some good input.

hope he's getting some rest </griin>.


regards, jr.

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"jr" <cre### [at] gmailcom> wrote:

> ah, here we "part company" :-), I do not think _setting_ any values (in advance)
> will actually be helpful.  likely I misunderstood yr intent, I thought the file
> should allow having one or more "sensible" pre-declared values, one of which
> I/user can then use.

I haven't had a chance to look through the wiki on this one - something new to
me.

The best thing I can think of to do presently is write out a little pseudo scene
file with pseudo code and comments that shows the code flow and what happens vs
what is desired.

I'm thinking that flags and conditionals might help.

> > Where is Bald Eagle?  I'm sure he has some good input.
>
> hope he's getting some rest </griin>.

Au contraire - I'm likely running full-bore every day this week.
Maybe I'll get a chance to look this over during the day and so have something
substantive, and perhaps even something helpful to say.

- BE

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I had a bit of time to re-read the whole thread after second coffee kicked in.
Below find Richard's discussion, and my labeled comments.
I don't regularly use ini files or command line flags, so this can likely be
supplemented by jr, who is much more well-versed in their implementation.

There are gaps in SDL's ability to query the state of the render, and
one of these is the default finish.  This is a problem for defining
certain library textures when radiosity is not used, as include files
have no access to the scene's lighting conditions.  This is the case
with several of the standard include files.

BE: Well, our inability to query any number of things is a crippling
disadvantage that requires workarounds, such as assigning values to
variable in SDL and then passing those into the definitions of scene
objects such as is done with the camera in screen.inc

But what about a texture that is, say, half metallic?  In that case, the
diffuse and ambient need to be halved.  But halved from what?  While it
is possible to override a finish ambient, I feel it is an unreasonable
burden on the user to have them figure out what ambient is appropriate
for each library texture.

BE: I would agree, and further comment about many unreasonable burdens that
are borne by the users.

The solution I used for RC3Metal was to have the user declare variables
with the scene's default ambient and diffuse.  But to implement this
solution over many include files would cumbersome for the user.  These
standard include files all set non-zero ambients on declared textures:
  glass_old.inc
  golds.inc
  metals.inc
  stones1.inc
  stones2.inc
  textures.inc

(Files finish.inc, skies.inc, and stars.inc also set non-zero ambients,
but these should really be converted to emission.)

One way to solve this would be to declare a single pair of variables
that would be used by all six include files.  Third party include files
would be encouraged to access these variables.  What do you think of
this proposal?  Does anyone have a better idea?

BE:  I think that it's time for a lot of these files to be rewritten,
both in form and substance.  I might suggest a standard
"Distribution_Standard_Defaults.inc" that:
1. gets checked for by any include file seeking to use the values therein.
Sanity checks and guards can be used in case the file is corrupt or missing.

2. It would be wise to allow the user to set values that can either be
overwritten
by the include file, or vise-versa.  Setting the actual value and then invoking
the
include file would overwrite the previous user-declared values, and setting a
Identifier_Override identifier to the value would keep the value in place.
writing a macro in "Distribution_Standard_Defaults.inc" to update values would
allow
the obvious updating of the value hierarchy.

3. As I have suggested before, "Distribution_Standard_Defaults.inc" ought to be
a sort of proxy
that includes the actual include file used, which is the latest
semantic-versioning include file.
That way a versioning history can be internally and automatically maintained,
and upgrading to the latest
include file version is as simple as adding the new include file to the
directory and pasting the filename into
"Distribution_Standard_Defaults.inc"
(The reasoning here is that all dependent files just use the proxy name, and so
don't need to be edited in any way. The proxy include file then acts as a
pointer to the latest version of the "real" include file)

The texture files can then be rewritten to use default values, dictionaries, etc
to construct the texture.
I would suggest that the textures be rewritten as macros, so that the user can
invoke them with different arguments if desired, and then the last section of
the include file just runs all of the macros to set the default textures.

These sorts of problems, workarounds, and solutions should be able to be used as
a template for 4.0 parser and source code to avoid and/or handle these problems
within the distribution.

In the absence of a primary developer, or dev group, I believe that the most
efficient way forward will be to construct a fully parallel "distribution"
package that we current active users develop, maintain, and USE, so that we can
iron all of this out and have it fully implemented once active development on
4.0 resumes.


- BE

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