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I had a bit of time to re-read the whole thread after second coffee kicked in.
Below find Richard's discussion, and my labeled comments.
I don't regularly use ini files or command line flags, so this can likely be
supplemented by jr, who is much more well-versed in their implementation.
There are gaps in SDL's ability to query the state of the render, and
one of these is the default finish. This is a problem for defining
certain library textures when radiosity is not used, as include files
have no access to the scene's lighting conditions. This is the case
with several of the standard include files.
BE: Well, our inability to query any number of things is a crippling
disadvantage that requires workarounds, such as assigning values to
variable in SDL and then passing those into the definitions of scene
objects such as is done with the camera in screen.inc
But what about a texture that is, say, half metallic? In that case, the
diffuse and ambient need to be halved. But halved from what? While it
is possible to override a finish ambient, I feel it is an unreasonable
burden on the user to have them figure out what ambient is appropriate
for each library texture.
BE: I would agree, and further comment about many unreasonable burdens that
are borne by the users.
The solution I used for RC3Metal was to have the user declare variables
with the scene's default ambient and diffuse. But to implement this
solution over many include files would cumbersome for the user. These
standard include files all set non-zero ambients on declared textures:
glass_old.inc
golds.inc
metals.inc
stones1.inc
stones2.inc
textures.inc
(Files finish.inc, skies.inc, and stars.inc also set non-zero ambients,
but these should really be converted to emission.)
One way to solve this would be to declare a single pair of variables
that would be used by all six include files. Third party include files
would be encouraged to access these variables. What do you think of
this proposal? Does anyone have a better idea?
BE: I think that it's time for a lot of these files to be rewritten,
both in form and substance. I might suggest a standard
"Distribution_Standard_Defaults.inc" that:
1. gets checked for by any include file seeking to use the values therein.
Sanity checks and guards can be used in case the file is corrupt or missing.
2. It would be wise to allow the user to set values that can either be
overwritten
by the include file, or vise-versa. Setting the actual value and then invoking
the
include file would overwrite the previous user-declared values, and setting a
Identifier_Override identifier to the value would keep the value in place.
writing a macro in "Distribution_Standard_Defaults.inc" to update values would
allow
the obvious updating of the value hierarchy.
3. As I have suggested before, "Distribution_Standard_Defaults.inc" ought to be
a sort of proxy
that includes the actual include file used, which is the latest
semantic-versioning include file.
That way a versioning history can be internally and automatically maintained,
and upgrading to the latest
include file version is as simple as adding the new include file to the
directory and pasting the filename into
"Distribution_Standard_Defaults.inc"
(The reasoning here is that all dependent files just use the proxy name, and so
don't need to be edited in any way. The proxy include file then acts as a
pointer to the latest version of the "real" include file)
The texture files can then be rewritten to use default values, dictionaries, etc
to construct the texture.
I would suggest that the textures be rewritten as macros, so that the user can
invoke them with different arguments if desired, and then the last section of
the include file just runs all of the macros to set the default textures.
These sorts of problems, workarounds, and solutions should be able to be used as
a template for 4.0 parser and source code to avoid and/or handle these problems
within the distribution.
In the absence of a primary developer, or dev group, I believe that the most
efficient way forward will be to construct a fully parallel "distribution"
package that we current active users develop, maintain, and USE, so that we can
iron all of this out and have it fully implemented once active development on
4.0 resumes.
- BE
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Cousin Ricky <ric### [at] yahoo com> wrote:
> What do you all think of the attached file?
I do believe that your opening #ifndef is missing a closing #end.
I also prefer really well-defined indentation and opening and closing
#directive #end, ( ), { } pairs, so that debugging is vastly easier.
(I actually have a very long list of preferences that clash with jr and TOK
(tabs), but I also recall that a sort of developer style guide with respect for
writing source code exists.)
> Are there any other variables we can add?
Perhaps. However my mind is presently suggesting that many functions or macros
that should be inbuilt keywords ought to be included. (sgn, etc)
I can post my ideas and preferences if you like - either here or in a separate
thread so you can ponder their value.
Until then - off to sort my morning 300 pages.
- BE
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"Bald Eagle" <cre### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
> I can post my ideas and preferences if you like - either here or in a separate
> thread so you can ponder their value.
Let's just go with "sure, Bill, you do that." ;)
Here's my saved preferences for having AI write SDL.
These are for clarity, ease of reading, to facilitate any future debugging, and
also as a pseudo-typing notation in case we go that route with 4.0
Some of it is obvious to us, but needed to be specified because AI seems to mix
& match SDL and c++ syntax and structures.
General Syntax & Formatting
Use tabs for indentation.
Directives (#if, #for, #declare) should be on their own lines.
Internal lines of macros, loops, and CSG should be indented with tabs.
Arguments and vector components separated with leading spaces.
Decimal values should have leading zeros (e.g., 0.5 instead of .5).
Spaces around operators (+, -, *, =, , >).
Extra space after directives before parentheses, no inner padding inside () or
<>.
Fixed decimal places across a block.
Leading space before positive numbers for sign alignment.
Compact formatting: space after keywords before {, no space after {.
End every code block with // ***end of code***.
Avoid lowercase identifiers (reserved keywords); prefix identifiers by type:
S_ for scalar
V_ for vector
A1D_ for 1D array
A2D_ for 2D array
Control Structures
Prefer #for loops over #while.
Loop bounds should reflect 0-based arrays: #for (i, 0, ArraySize-1).
Use #if (A = B) instead of #if (A == B).
Avoid ternary for text values; use #if/#else/#end instead.
When ternary is allowed, enclose in parentheses: (A ? B : C).
Math & Functions
Use mod(A, B) instead of % or frac.
Use bitwise_or(A, B) instead of A | B.
Use * for multiplication.
Functions must be strictly mathematical (no multiline logic, no
#declare/#local).
Function argument names must be unique and prefixed with FnPar_.
Avoid dot operators in functions; predeclare components if needed.
Use select() instead of ternary in VM functions.
Vector math: use vcross, vdot, vlength in macros only (not in functions).
Scene & Object Rules
Camera positioned on -z axis looking toward +z.
Use left-handed coordinate system: x → right, y → up, z →
forward.
Use rgb instead of deprecated color.
Prefer specular highlights over phong.
Transforms must output transform{...} wrapper.
Include transforms.inc before using vtransform().
Avoid wrapping multi-object macros in object{}; use union{} for single-object
wrapping.
Pigment syntax: pigment {object {ObjectName rgb rgb}} (omit comma).
Pigment functions: function {PigmentName} without arguments.
Data Structures
Empty array syntax: #declare Array = array; (not array[0]).
Use proper spline/function pattern:
#declare SPL = spline{...};
#declare F_SPL = function{SPL}.
arguments.
Macros
Identifiers assigned inside macros must use #local.
Do not #declare then #local the same identifier.
Macros should not take a named output parameter; return expression and assign
externally.
Separate arguments for macros, loops, and calls.
- BE
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"Bald Eagle" <cre### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
> > Are there any other variables we can add?
I believe there was some discussion about making tau available even if v3.8
wasn't being used.
Euler's number e
not_0 = 1/256; // for use in rgb values
Recently we explored val () in terms of accessing NAN and INF.
Perhaps have variables with these values predefined.
With regard to "epsilon", it might be useful at this juncture to differentiate
between all the various different small values.
There are several hard-coded limits in source, and those "epsilons" ought to be
be named. "Coincident_Epsilon", etc.
A mathematical Epsilon might be defined as the smallest possible value able to
be reliably represented by floating point across multiple systems.
And, following that, perhaps name some variable to represent the largest value.
Phi
phi
golden angle
Also, upon editing your file, I discovered (as I suspected but lazily dismissed
- throttle was engaged but steering was not) that your file is structured
properly and your final #end is the proper closing directive.
While only tangentially related, it might be worth discussing elsewhere what
constants, functions, transforms, etc we would like to see in case folks want a
nice library of such things to be readily available.
Hopefully when I get some free time and am in one of those manic phases, I can
edit my wiki page to list such things and have links to actual files.
Edited version attached.
- BE
Post a reply to this message
Attachments:
Download 'defaults.inc.txt' (2 KB)
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On 2025-12-25 05:58 (-4), jr wrote:
>
> unsure if it is "in the spirit", but a "dedicated" font (preferred TTF) default,
> for "post installation" ?
I don't know what you mean by "dedicated." In current text{} syntax, a
font is always specified, so there is no default font.
> given the name and the purpose[*] of the file, I tried using 'include_header' to
> load it. it seems that for the system-wide 'povray.ini' that keyword won't
> work. for my personal file (~/.povray/3.8.povray.ini) I needed to add a
> '#version version;' line to 'defaults.inc', before the guard, to avoid the 'as
> of version 3.7' error message.
>
> [*] I am looking at it not as the first include in other include files but as an
> "always load", ideally.
I was thinking of this sort of construction in the scene description file:
---%<-----%<-----%<-----%<---[BEGIN CODE]---%<-----%<-----%<-----%<---
#declare Default_Ambient = rgb 0.05;
#declare Default_Diffuse = 0.8;
#declare Default_Gamma = 1.8; // I wouldn't, but some might ;)
#default
{ finish
{ ambient Defaults_Ambient
diffuse Defaults_Diffuse
}
}
global_settings { assumed_gamma Defaults_Gamma }
#include "textures.inc"
#include "metals.inc"
#include "golds.inc"
#include "androidrobot.inc"
--->%----->%----->%----->%----[END CODE]---->%----->%----->%----->%---
This would work with or without an "always load"; the other include
files could just test for the identifiers in default.inc, and if they're
not defined, the include file could just assume the POV-Ray defaults.
But I had the thought that those #default and assumed_gamma statements
look kinda redundant. It would be cleaner if those statements were
incorporated into defaults.inc; but with that scheme, an "always load"
wouldn't work, because the scene file would not have the chance to
#declare the default identifiers in advance.
As for '#version version;', the fundamental problem I have with this
construct is that it leaves no indication which version of POV-Ray the
scene file or include file is intended for.
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Cousin Ricky <ric### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> On 2025-12-25 05:58 (-4), jr wrote:
> >
> > unsure if it is "in the spirit", but a "dedicated" font (preferred TTF) default,
> > for "post installation" ?
>
> I don't know what you mean by "dedicated." In current text{} syntax, a
> font is always specified, so there is no default font.
I were to interpret this, I would say that after installing POV-Ray, we might
all agree to use Lucid_sans_unicode.ttf as our default font, and then the
default.inc file would run a check to see if that font existed, and if not, then
default to one of the inbuilt fonts. Then default_font could be used as an
identifier in EVERY text {} object as the default, rather than specifying a
specific font filename.
Then if the default were changed, it could be done in that one place in the
default.inc file.
> I was thinking of this sort of construction in the scene description file:
>
> ---%<-----%<-----%<-----%<---[BEGIN CODE]---%<-----%<-----%<-----%<---
> #declare Default_Ambient = rgb 0.05;
> #declare Default_Diffuse = 0.8;
> #declare Default_Gamma = 1.8; // I wouldn't, but some might ;)
>
> #default
> { finish
> { ambient Defaults_Ambient // Default_Ambient (no s)
> diffuse Defaults_Diffuse // Default_Diffuse (no s)
> }
> }
> global_settings { assumed_gamma Defaults_Gamma } // Default_Gamma (no s)
>
> #include "textures.inc"
> #include "metals.inc"
> #include "golds.inc"
> #include "androidrobot.inc"
> --->%----->%----->%----->%----[END CODE]---->%----->%----->%----->%---
>
> This would work with or without an "always load"; the other include
> files could just test for the identifiers in default.inc, and if they're
> not defined, the include file could just assume the POV-Ray defaults.
>
> But I had the thought that those #default and assumed_gamma statements
> look kinda redundant. It would be cleaner if those statements were
> incorporated into defaults.inc; but with that scheme, an "always load"
> wouldn't work, because the scene file would not have the chance to
> #declare the default identifiers in advance.
The always-load would just declare those identifiers.
Any declarations in the scene would overwrite them.
What about Default_Ambient () as a macro, saving the typing of #declare, and it
could even call Default_Finish () to redeclare the default.
you could do the same with diffuse and gamma
> As for '#version version;', the fundamental problem I have with this
> construct is that it leaves no indication which version of POV-Ray the
> scene file or include file is intended for.
Well, there are comments,
but also, you could write a Version () macro that took two arguments, the
current version, and the intended version, and then you'd have a wide latitude
for what happens after that.
In fact, I'm thinking that a lot of the directives could be recast as
(capitalized) macros that do a lot of sanity checking and special handling. As
a macro, we could internally document the use of the directive and guard against
any recurrent newbie (ab)uses.
It would be a great way to embed all of our accumulated knowledge into a
parallel system of commands that would be didactic/pedagogical,
self-documenting, and only a bit slower for most small, static scenes.
- BE
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hi,
Cousin Ricky <ric### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> On 2025-12-25 05:58 (-4), jr wrote:
> > unsure if it is "in the spirit", but a "dedicated" font (preferred TTF) default,
> > for "post installation" ?
> I don't know what you mean by "dedicated." In current text{} syntax, a
> font is always specified, so there is no default font.
in context I mean(t):
#declare Defaults_Font = "timrom.ttf";
to allow use in those 'text{}'s.
> > [*] I am looking at it not as the first include in other include files but as an
> > "always load", ideally.
> I was thinking of this sort of construction in the scene description file:
>
> ---%<-----%<-----%<-----%<---[BEGIN CODE]---%<-----%<-----%<-----%<---
> #declare Default_Ambient = rgb 0.05;
won't fly. '#version' has to be first.
> ...
> As for '#version version;', the fundamental problem I have with this
> construct is that it leaves no indication which version of POV-Ray the
> scene file or include file is intended for.
in the 'defaults.inc' example that line comes before the guard, needed to avoid
an error. the version required by the code (for includes) is inside the guard.
for scene files (I guess) there'd be no difference.
regards, jr.
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hi,
"Bald Eagle" <cre### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
> ...
> In fact, I'm thinking that a lot of the directives could be recast as
> (capitalized) macros that do a lot of sanity checking and special handling. As
> a macro, we could internally document the use of the directive and guard against
> any recurrent newbie (ab)uses.
>
> It would be a great way to embed all of our accumulated knowledge into a
> parallel system of commands that would be didactic/pedagogical,
> self-documenting, and only a bit slower for most small, static scenes.
v nice idea. "self-documenting" - exactly, I like that.
regards, jr.
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On 2026-01-06 13:53 (-4), jr wrote:
> Cousin Ricky <ric### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
>> On 2025-12-25 05:58 (-4), jr wrote:
>>> unsure if it is "in the spirit", but a "dedicated" font (preferred TTF) default,
>>> for "post installation" ?
>> I don't know what you mean by "dedicated." In current text{} syntax, a
>> font is always specified, so there is no default font.
>
> in context I mean(t):
> #declare Defaults_Font = "timrom.ttf";
>
> to allow use in those 'text{}'s.
I dunno. That seems superfluous to me.
>> ---%<-----%<-----%<-----%<---[BEGIN CODE]---%<-----%<-----%<-----%<---
>> #declare Default_Ambient = rgb 0.05;
>
> won't fly. '#version' has to be first.
Granted. I should have started that scene file excerpt with '#version
3.8;'.
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I wrote out a generic implementation for an always-included set of files.
A few things not yet implemented due to not having the code readily available.
Just a proof-of-concept, I'm sure that some things might be best loaded from
other dedicated include files, (best would be inbuilt as source), though I'm
still trying to work out a good way to have a "monolithic include file" where
only the desired parts will actually be loaded/implemented.
I think that a calculation for minimum visible size/radius would be a good
addition, as would an always-face-the-camera macro.
Post a reply to this message
Attachments:
Download 'defaults_be.inc.txt' (6 KB)
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