https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEJ7-JRdrHM

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On 14/08/2014 16:56, Jaime Vives Piqueres wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEJ7-JRdrHM

Nice.

Missing in simulation: momentum on wheels (the front wheels are turned
with so much speed it gives it away as fake).

-- 
IQ of crossposters with FU: 100 / (number of groups)
IQ of crossposters without FU: 100 / (1 + number of groups)
IQ of multiposters: 100 / ( (number of groups) * (number of groups))

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El 14/08/14 a las #4, Le_Forgeron escribió:
> On 14/08/2014 16:56, Jaime Vives Piqueres wrote:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEJ7-JRdrHM
>
> Nice.
>

   Thanks!

> Missing in simulation: momentum on wheels (the front wheels are
> turned with so much speed it gives it away as fake).

   Yes, the driving controls are very simplistic: the steering just
happens instantly, and the acceleration is fixed. But cannot figure any
way to make them progressive... for the moment.

--
jaime

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On 14/08/2014 17:53, Le_Forgeron wrote:
> On 14/08/2014 16:56, Jaime Vives Piqueres wrote:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEJ7-JRdrHM
>
> Nice.
>
> Missing in simulation: momentum on wheels (the front wheels are turned
> with so much speed it gives it away as fake).
>

Eh! Also the driver. :-P

It is really good, Jamie.

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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Very good. A driver is needed inside the car ;-)

Thomas

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El 15/08/14 a las #4, Thomas de Groot escribió:
> Very good. A driver is needed inside the car ;-)
>

   Maybe if someone can provide an already posed mesh... ;)

--
Jaime

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On 15/08/2014 09:02, Jaime Vives Piqueres wrote:
> El 15/08/14 a las #4, Thomas de Groot escribió:
>> Very good. A driver is needed inside the car ;-)
>>
>
>    Maybe if someone can provide an already posed mesh... ;)
>

Maybe if someone can provide the car to pose the driver in. ;-)

Seriously, when I've put Poser models into scenes. I've needed to create 
things like the seat and driving wheel in Poser or imported them as 
meshes to use as guides for the figure.
I would think that a couple of Poser figures would be required. One for 
driving forward, turning left and right with a couple of intermediate 
positions.

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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El 15/08/14 a las #4, Stephen escribió:
> On 15/08/2014 09:02, Jaime Vives Piqueres wrote:
>> El 15/08/14 a las #4, Thomas de Groot escribió:
>>> Very good. A driver is needed inside the car ;-)
>>>
>>
>> Maybe if someone can provide an already posed mesh... ;)
>>
>
> Maybe if someone can provide the car to pose the driver in. ;-)
>

   René kindly sent me the Wings3D file, but oddly it doesn't seems
complete: the wheel is missing. Fortunately, Poseray can import POV
meshes, so I just made a 3DS file from there:

http://www.ignorancia.org/en/uploads/tmp/micra_inner.3ds


> I would think that a couple of Poser figures would be required. One
> for driving forward, turning left and right with a couple of
> intermediate positions.

   Yes, and it would be nice to have another one for going backwards...
the typical pose of looking back with the right arm posed over the
co-driver seat. :)  ... but for the moment, a single "driving forward"
position will be enough.

--
Jaime

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On 15/08/2014 09:51, Jaime Vives Piqueres wrote:

>
>    René kindly sent me the Wings3D file, but oddly it doesn't seems
> complete: the wheel is missing. Fortunately, Poseray can import POV
> meshes, so I just made a 3DS file from there:
>
> http://www.ignorancia.org/en/uploads/tmp/micra_inner.3ds
>
>

Thanks, I got that and it looks just the thing. :-D

Ah! it appears in PoseRay as a right hand drive. (The way that God 
intended. :-P )

>> I would think that a couple of Poser figures would be required. One
>> for driving forward, turning left and right with a couple of
>> intermediate positions.
>
>    Yes, and it would be nice to have another one for going backwards...
> the typical pose of looking back with the right arm posed over the
> co-driver seat. :)  ... but for the moment, a single "driving forward"
> position will be enough.
>

Simple one first then. :-)

I'll probably create an animation so that there will be several meshes 
to choose from. I'll use the smallest acceptable mesh so no close ups, 
please. ;-)

Can be changed later, if required.

Any preference to gender?
I've got a Poser cat or a skellington that might be interesting.


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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El 15/08/14 a las #4, Stephen escribió:
> Thanks, I got that and it looks just the thing. :-D
>
> Ah! it appears in PoseRay as a right hand drive. (The way that God
> intended. :-P )

   Yes, but only because of the conversion... I guess René, being French,
designed it as Satan intended. :)

   Fortunately, in POV-Ray, the difference between good and evil is
simply "scale <1,1,-1>".

> I'll probably create an animation so that there will be several
> meshes to choose from. I'll use the smallest acceptable mesh so no
> close ups, please. ;-)

   Yes, no close ups: almost a low-poly will do... also, the glass is
tinted, and the sun position is going to be high enough to keep it in
the shadow.

> Any preference to gender?

   Not really, but maybe a man is more suited to keep the triangle count
small, as you can make it bald without remorse.

> I've got a Poser cat or a skellington that might be interesting.

   Make it human for the moment, please... :)

--
jaime

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On 15/08/2014 10:50, Jaime Vives Piqueres wrote:
> El 15/08/14 a las #4, Stephen escribió:
>> Thanks, I got that and it looks just the thing. :-D
>>
>> Ah! it appears in PoseRay as a right hand drive. (The way that God
>> intended. :-P )
>
>    Yes, but only because of the conversion... I guess René, being French,
> designed it as Satan intended. :)
>

Not Satan but Napoleon.

>    Fortunately, in POV-Ray, the difference between good and evil is
> simply "scale <1,1,-1>".
>

How simple! If only RL were like that.


>> I'll probably create an animation so that there will be several
>> meshes to choose from. I'll use the smallest acceptable mesh so no
>> close ups, please. ;-)
>
>    Yes, no close ups: almost a low-poly will do... also, the glass is
> tinted, and the sun position is going to be high enough to keep it in
> the shadow.
>
>> Any preference to gender?
>
>    Not really, but maybe a man is more suited to keep the triangle count
> small, as you can make it bald without remorse.
>

Posted both in p.b.misc

>> I've got a Poser cat or a skellington that might be interesting.
>
>    Make it human for the moment, please... :)
>
Shucks! I want to do a green Alien lizard from outer space, driving the car.


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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Am 15.08.2014 11:14, schrieb Stephen:
> On 15/08/2014 09:51, Jaime Vives Piqueres wrote:
>
>>
>>    René kindly sent me the Wings3D file, but oddly it doesn't seems
>> complete: the wheel is missing. Fortunately, Poseray can import POV
>> meshes, so I just made a 3DS file from there:
>>
>> http://www.ignorancia.org/en/uploads/tmp/micra_inner.3ds
>>
>>
>
> Thanks, I got that and it looks just the thing. :-D
>
> Ah! it appears in PoseRay as a right hand drive. (The way that God
> intended. :-P )

Well, there /is/ some practical reason why driving on the right lane is 
more natural. You see, most people are right handed, and will also have 
a dominant right leg, i.e. their right leg is stronger. It is therefore 
easier and more natural for most humans to walk a counter-clockwise 
circle than a clockwise one. So from a psychological point of view, to 
an otherwise unbiased person it will come more natural to make U-turns 
to the left rather than to the right.

(In a similar vein, shifting gears with the right hand is probably 
easier as well.)

It also expresses a more friendly attitude: When moving around as a 
pedestrian, passing oncoming people to the right exposes your heart side 
to them, which shows some degree of trust. That same pattern 
extrapolated to vehicle traffic means that in general we continental 
Europeans are the friendlier lot.

:-)

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On 15/08/2014 12:32, clipka wrote:
> Am 15.08.2014 11:14, schrieb Stephen:

>> Ah! it appears in PoseRay as a right hand drive. (The way that God
>> intended. :-P )
>
> Well, there /is/ some practical reason why driving on the right lane is
> more natural.

Did the Supernatural Being of your choice tell you that? :-P

> You see, most people are right handed, and will also have
> a dominant right leg, i.e. their right leg is stronger. It is therefore
> easier and more natural for most humans to walk a counter-clockwise
> circle than a clockwise one.

Not so from what I've read.

http://news.sciencemag.org/2009/08/why-we-walk-circles
http://sciencenetlinks.com/science-news/science-updates/walking-in-circles/


> So from a psychological point of view, to
> an otherwise unbiased person it will come more natural to make U-turns
> to the left rather than to the right.
>

:-O

> (In a similar vein, shifting gears with the right hand is probably
> easier as well.)
>

In my experience it is not. In fact I find shifting gears with my right 
hand is more clunky as it is stronger. *
I have lived and driven in countries ** that drive on the left and in 
ones that drive on the right. The only difference for me is that I tend 
to drift the wrong way if I am not thinking. In Britain I drift to the 
left abroad I drift to the right. Probably because I learned to drive on 
a motorbike and I keep to the kerb side.


> It also expresses a more friendly attitude: When moving around as a
> pedestrian, passing oncoming people to the right exposes your heart side
> to them, which shows some degree of trust. That same pattern
> extrapolated to vehicle traffic means that in general we continental
> Europeans are the friendlier lot.
>
> :-)
>

Yeah history shows that to be true. ;-)

* The one time I tried teaching my wife to drive. I suggested that she 
steer and I would do the gear changes. I actually snapped the stick off 
at the base (it was an old car) with my right hand then I had to drive 
home myself in second gear.

** Having said that. It may be just me. I am not ambidextrous but I use 
my left hand a lot and will pick something up with it if it is closer to 
my left hand than my right. Dr John was surprised at that but it is 
natural (there is that word again). I can also do mirror writing with my 
right hand.


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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On 15/08/2014 13:32, clipka wrote:
> passing oncoming people to the right exposes your heart side to them

And the other choice exposes the liver.

Both are vital organs.

Everything might be in the symbol you choose:
 * Exposing your heart, and the side with the sword, as well as the
shield on the left arm.
 * Exposing your liver, and its bile.

-- 
IQ of crossposters with FU: 100 / (number of groups)
IQ of crossposters without FU: 100 / (1 + number of groups)
IQ of multiposters: 100 / ( (number of groups) * (number of groups))

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Am 15.08.2014 18:41, schrieb Stephen:
> On 15/08/2014 12:32, clipka wrote:
>> Am 15.08.2014 11:14, schrieb Stephen:
>
>>> Ah! it appears in PoseRay as a right hand drive. (The way that God
>>> intended. :-P )
>>
>> Well, there /is/ some practical reason why driving on the right lane is
>> more natural.
>
> Did the Supernatural Being of your choice tell you that? :-P

No, the /Natural/ Being of my choice. Otherwise I surely would have said 
that it is more /supernatural/ ;-)


>> You see, most people are right handed, and will also have
>> a dominant right leg, i.e. their right leg is stronger. It is therefore
>> easier and more natural for most humans to walk a counter-clockwise
>> circle than a clockwise one.
>
> Not so from what I've read.
>
> http://news.sciencemag.org/2009/08/why-we-walk-circles
> http://sciencenetlinks.com/science-news/science-updates/walking-in-circles/

Note that this study has not much relationship with the issue at hand: 
The candidates' task was to walk as straight as possible with limited 
information; whether people tend to veer to the left or right in such a 
circumstance says nothing about whether they prefer to walk left or 
right turns when walking in a circle deliberately.

The tendency of people to prefer walking left turns over right turns has 
long been identified by /the/ one most motivated, well-funded and 
experienced branch of applied behavioural science of all: Marketing 
analysis. Shops are arranged on this basis, and it works.


>> So from a psychological point of view, to
>> an otherwise unbiased person it will come more natural to make U-turns
>> to the left rather than to the right.
>
> :-O

Yup. Fortunately for you people on the island, you're all being biased 
during driving lessons :-)

>> (In a similar vein, shifting gears with the right hand is probably
>> easier as well.)
>
> In my experience it is not. In fact I find shifting gears with my right
> hand is more clunky as it is stronger. *

...

> * The one time I tried teaching my wife to drive. I suggested that she
> steer and I would do the gear changes. I actually snapped the stick off
> at the base (it was an old car) with my right hand then I had to drive
> home myself in second gear.

That may well be due to having no training whatsoever in shifting gears 
with the right hand.

> ** Having said that. It may be just me. I am not ambidextrous but I use
> my left hand a lot and will pick something up with it if it is closer to
> my left hand than my right. Dr John was surprised at that but it is
> natural (there is that word again). I can also do mirror writing with my
> right hand.

... which clearly indicates that your experience does not reflect 
/typical/ human behaviour. :-P

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Am 15.08.2014 18:58, schrieb Le_Forgeron:
> On 15/08/2014 13:32, clipka wrote:
>> passing oncoming people to the right exposes your heart side to them
>
> And the other choice exposes the liver.
>
> Both are vital organs.
>
> Everything might be in the symbol you choose:
>   * Exposing your heart, and the side with the sword, as well as the
> shield on the left arm.
>   * Exposing your liver, and its bile.

No, it's not a matter of symbols in this case. The association of the 
left side with friendliness and the right side with rejection is a real 
effect confirmed by psychological studies, and the "heart side" thing is 
just a common explanation for why that might be so.

It might just as well be that a "non-heart-side stance" is simply a 
better choice when encountering someone you don't trust because the 
typically stronger right arm is better suited for fending off the other 
person.

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El 15/08/14 a las #4, Stephen escribió:
> Posted both in p.b.misc
>

   Works great, thanks! The pose seems perfect, and fits perfectly
(miraculously, his head doesn't touch the roof).

>> Make it human for the moment, please... :)
>>
> Shucks! I want to do a green Alien lizard from outer space, driving
> the car.
>

   The interior would need a little customization to accommodate a
lizard, I guess... ;)

--
jaime

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On 15/08/2014 21:30, Jaime Vives Piqueres wrote:
> El 15/08/14 a las #4, Stephen escribió:
>> Posted both in p.b.misc
>>
>
>    Works great, thanks! The pose seems perfect, and fits perfectly
> (miraculously, his head doesn't touch the roof).
>

That's great. Normally I have difficulty importing props into Poser and 
getting the scale right. But the interior you created came in like a dream.
I had a bit of trouble with the feet. My first try made it look like 
Fred Flintstone's car. :-)



>>> Make it human for the moment, please... :)
>>>
>> Shucks! I want to do a green Alien lizard from outer space, driving
>> the car.
>>
>
>    The interior would need a little customization to accommodate a
> lizard, I guess... ;)
>
*A* lizard? The ones that I'm thinking of are small and about 6 of them 
fit inside a human body after eating the insides..
Nasty beasts. ;-)


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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On 15/08/2014 18:27, clipka wrote:
> Am 15.08.2014 18:41, schrieb Stephen:

>> Did the Supernatural Being of your choice tell you that? :-P
>
> No, the /Natural/ Being of my choice. Otherwise I surely would have said
> that it is more /supernatural/ ;-)
>
>

Sorry, I don't know the smiley for sarcasm. :-)


>> http://news.sciencemag.org/2009/08/why-we-walk-circles
>> http://sciencenetlinks.com/science-news/science-updates/walking-in-circles/
>>
>
> Note that this study has not much relationship with the issue at hand:

But I think it does or I would not have posted the links.

> The candidates' task was to walk as straight as possible with limited
> information; whether people tend to veer to the left or right in such a
> circumstance says nothing about whether they prefer to walk left or
> right turns when walking in a circle deliberately.
>

True but it shows that there is little bias to turn away from their 
strong leg.

> The tendency of people to prefer walking left turns over right turns has
> long been identified by /the/ one most motivated, well-funded and
> experienced branch of applied behavioural science of all: Marketing
> analysis. Shops are arranged on this basis, and it works.
>
>
Sources that it works? (and not psychobabble, please).
If shops had paths that wound to the right. I suspect that they would 
still sell things.
It sounds like juju to me. "Give me money and I will make you more mony 
than you now have."

>>> So from a psychological point of view, to
>>> an otherwise unbiased person it will come more natural to make U-turns
>>> to the left rather than to the right.
>>
>> :-O
>
> Yup. Fortunately for you people on the island, you're all being biased
> during driving lessons :-)
>

This is true as is the reverse.


>> * The one time I tried teaching my wife to drive. I suggested that she
>> steer and I would do the gear changes. I actually snapped the stick off
>> at the base (it was an old car) with my right hand then I had to drive
>> home myself in second gear.
>
> That may well be due to having no training whatsoever in shifting gears
> with the right hand.
>

No, it was just a very old car. :-)
Although at the time I had no experience of shifting a car's gears with 
my right hand. I did have experience of using similar controls with my 
right hand.

>> ** Having said that. It may be just me. I am not ambidextrous but I use
>> my left hand a lot and will pick something up with it if it is closer to
>> my left hand than my right. Dr John was surprised at that but it is
>> natural (there is that word again). I can also do mirror writing with my
>> right hand.
>
> .... which clearly indicates that your experience does not reflect
> /typical/ human behaviour. :-P
>

No need for the ":-P" it is true. That is why I mentioned it.

And before you or anyone else says it. I have often heard that I am 
weird. And I play on that.
I suspect that there are a few people on this newsgroup that have been 
been labelled weird or strange.
Last comment for now. To put your heart side forward is (to me) to stand 
square. Our hearts are in the centre of out chests.

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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On 15/08/2014 18:44, clipka wrote:
> Am 15.08.2014 18:58, schrieb Le_Forgeron:
>> On 15/08/2014 13:32, clipka wrote:
>>> passing oncoming people to the right exposes your heart side to them
>>
>> And the other choice exposes the liver.
>>
>> Both are vital organs.
>>
>> Everything might be in the symbol you choose:
>>   * Exposing your heart, and the side with the sword, as well as the
>> shield on the left arm.
>>   * Exposing your liver, and its bile.
>
> No, it's not a matter of symbols in this case. The association of the
> left side with friendliness and the right side with rejection is a real
> effect confirmed by psychological studies,

Do you have any sources for that?

> and the "heart side" thing is
> just a common explanation for why that might be so.
>

I see the sense in that. People want/need a reason for things.

> It might just as well be that a "non-heart-side stance" is simply a
> better choice when encountering someone you don't trust because the
> typically stronger right arm is better suited for fending off the other
> person.
>

That makes sense to me too. Look at fighters, swordsmen lead with their 
dominant side unless they have a shield. Then that is the side they lead 
with. Boxers lead with their "shield" side for protection. If they lead 
with their right hand forward they have a special name, southpaw. In 
judo it is the opposite way. So I think that this has to do with the 
discipline.
In non fighting encounters. I have noticed that most people put their 
shaking hand forward.

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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El 15/08/14 a las #4, Stephen escribió:
> On 15/08/2014 10:50, Jaime Vives Piqueres wrote:
>> El 15/08/14 a las #4, Stephen escribió:
>>> Thanks, I got that and it looks just the thing. :-D
>>>
>>> Ah! it appears in PoseRay as a right hand drive. (The way that
>>> God intended. :-P )
>>
>> Yes, but only because of the conversion... I guess René, being
>> French, designed it as Satan intended. :)
>>
>
> Not Satan but Napoleon.
>
>> Fortunately, in POV-Ray, the difference between good and evil is
>> simply "scale <1,1,-1>".
>>
>
> How simple! If only RL were like that.
>
>
>>> I'll probably create an animation so that there will be several
>>> meshes to choose from. I'll use the smallest acceptable mesh so
>>> no close ups, please. ;-)
>>
>> Yes, no close ups: almost a low-poly will do... also, the glass is
>> tinted, and the sun position is going to be high enough to keep it
>> in the shadow.
>>
>>> Any preference to gender?
>>
>> Not really, but maybe a man is more suited to keep the triangle
>> count small, as you can make it bald without remorse.
>>
>
> Posted both in p.b.misc

   Here is a first animation using it (sorry for the left-hand driving,
but I had to reverse the model so the plates and rear windshield banner
were right... :)

   http://youtu.be/vgQ-qMCdvhI

   I've changed his blue shirt for a plaid shirt: as the car was already
blue I wanted something different.

   Curiously, even if it is a static figure, my brain almost sees him
steering at some points.

   Now, I noticed a few more problems:

   + he seems to be glued to the seat, as car movement doesn't affects
him (I placed the model into the animation, not into the simulation).
   + OMG, he is riding without belt!
   + Wait... that Micra had automatic shift?

--
jaime

Post a reply to this message

On 16/08/2014 10:25, Jaime Vives Piqueres wrote:
>    Here is a first animation using it (sorry for the left-hand driving,
> but I had to reverse the model so the plates and rear windshield banner
> were right... :)
>
> http://youtu.be/vgQ-qMCdvhI
>
>    I've changed his blue shirt for a plaid shirt: as the car was already
> blue I wanted something different.
>

That looks good.

>    Curiously, even if it is a static figure, my brain almost sees him
> steering at some points.
>
Marvellous, is it not?

>    Now, I noticed a few more problems:
>

The car's wheels wobble a bit as well.
I paid attention to them as I was thinking that if I gave you a series 
of meshes with the driver turning the steering wheel from -90° ~ 0° ~ 
+90°. You could select a mesh depending on the angle of the car's front 
wheels.
I am taking a couple of months off work so I have the time and I've not 
used Poser in a while. So I need to keep up my skills.
No pressure.


>    + he seems to be glued to the seat, as car movement doesn't affects
> him (I placed the model into the animation, not into the simulation).

He is glued to the seat in fact  he intersects with the seat.

>    + OMG, he is riding without belt!

Not a public road so no problem.
Besides he is glued to the seat. :-)


>    + Wait... that Micra had automatic shift?

Now you are asking. :-)

But a model with one one hand on the gear stick would not be a problem.



-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 15-8-2014 23:35, Stephen wrote:
> On 15/08/2014 21:30, Jaime Vives Piqueres wrote:
>> El 15/08/14 a las #4, Stephen escribió:
>>> Posted both in p.b.misc
>>>
>>
>>    Works great, thanks! The pose seems perfect, and fits perfectly
>> (miraculously, his head doesn't touch the roof).
>>
>
> That's great. Normally I have difficulty importing props into Poser and
> getting the scale right. But the interior you created came in like a dream.
> I had a bit of trouble with the feet. My first try made it look like
> Fred Flintstone's car. :-)

You could have cut off his feet though ;-)

They will be invisible under all circumstances...

Thomas

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On 16-8-2014 13:12, Stephen wrote:
> The car's wheels wobble a bit as well.
> I paid attention to them as I was thinking that if I gave you a series
> of meshes with the driver turning the steering wheel from -90° ~ 0° ~
> +90°. You could select a mesh depending on the angle of the car's front
> wheels.

Yes, I noticed that too. It was less in the first animation. Jaime, 
could you control the rate of angular change of the fore wheels? Make it 
more gradual?

Thomas

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On 16-8-2014 10:53, Stephen wrote:

> That makes sense to me too. Look at fighters, swordsmen lead with their
> dominant side unless they have a shield. Then that is the side they lead
> with. Boxers lead with their "shield" side for protection. If they lead
> with their right hand forward they have a special name, southpaw. In
> judo it is the opposite way. So I think that this has to do with the
> discipline.

I have been told that the origin of left-hand driving came from medieval 
sword fighting and tournaments, like also the winding sense of stairs.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

On 16/08/2014 12:35, Thomas de Groot wrote:
>
> You could have cut off his feet though ;-)
>

Ouch!

> They will be invisible under all circumstances...

In that case I could cut him off at the waist. :-)

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 16/08/2014 13:50, Thomas de Groot wrote:
> On 16-8-2014 10:53, Stephen wrote:
> 
>> That makes sense to me too. Look at fighters, swordsmen lead with their
>> dominant side unless they have a shield. Then that is the side they lead
>> with. Boxers lead with their "shield" side for protection. If they lead
>> with their right hand forward they have a special name, southpaw. In
>> judo it is the opposite way. So I think that this has to do with the
>> discipline.
> 
> I have been told that the origin of left-hand driving came from medieval
> sword fighting and tournaments, like also the winding sense of stairs.
> 
> Thomas

I heard that the winding sense of stairs is for defence of the building,
assuming the main hand for the sword is the right one.
So defendants get full movement range and assaulting get problems.
So, the rotation is not the same when going to the vault or going to the
roof, from the outside.

The English driving on the left side is due to the sheath being on the
left side (once again for the majority with a right hand for the sword),
and horsed-armed-men should not collide the sheaths when crossing. It
went to road and railway (and so far, trains on railway still "drive on
left" even in France), because most trains first came from the island
west of Brussels (but the spacing between the rails is due to the wide
of the roman empire's horse's ass). Due to the large influences of the
English Empire, many countries sticks to that convention.
Napoleon might have hated that convention for Europe, but how do you
explain that the continental north America also drives on the right ?

Last note: trains run on left, but tramways is a different story, and
metro/tube too, they run on right (like car) in Paris.

-- 
IQ of crossposters with FU: 100 / (number of groups)
IQ of crossposters without FU: 100 / (1 + number of groups)
IQ of multiposters: 100 / ( (number of groups) * (number of groups))

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On 16-8-2014 15:10, Le_Forgeron wrote:

> Last note: trains run on left, but tramways is a different story, and
> metro/tube too, they run on right (like car) in Paris.

On the continent, /only/ in France trains are left-sided, if I am 
correct. ;-)

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

Am 16.08.2014 10:53, schrieb Stephen:

>> The candidates' task was to walk as straight as possible with limited
>> information; whether people tend to veer to the left or right in such a
>> circumstance says nothing about whether they prefer to walk left or
>> right turns when walking in a circle deliberately.
>>
>
> True but it shows that there is little bias to turn away from their
> strong leg.

No, all it shows is that when tasked with walking in a straight line, 
their compensation for any such bias they may or may not have works even 
when blindfolded.

>> The tendency of people to prefer walking left turns over right turns has
>> long been identified by /the/ one most motivated, well-funded and
>> experienced branch of applied behavioural science of all: Marketing
>> analysis. Shops are arranged on this basis, and it works.
>>
> Sources that it works? (and not psychobabble, please).
> If shops had paths that wound to the right. I suspect that they would
> still sell things.

Yeah, but it's one of the little tweaks by which they influence /what/ 
they sell (to an average person; they don't care much about 
individualists) - and also how much. Like that old trick to put the milk 
way at the back, because almost everyone has milk on their shopping 
list, so they make you walk past all the other goods that you might not 
have thought about when you made the list.

> It sounds like juju to me. "Give me money and I will make you more mony
> than you now have."

I've first heard that a quarter of a century ago, at a time when - or so 
it seems to me - juju wasn't state of the art. Besides, it's such a 
trivial thing that you can't really "sell" that idea - and the shop 
owner can easily check whether it has any effect or not.


>>>> So from a psychological point of view, to
>>>> an otherwise unbiased person it will come more natural to make U-turns
>>>> to the left rather than to the right.
>>>
>>> :-O
>>
>> Yup. Fortunately for you people on the island, you're all being biased
>> during driving lessons :-)
>
> This is true as is the reverse.

Sure. But my point is that the continental bias is more natural :-)

> And before you or anyone else says it. I have often heard that I am
> weird. And I play on that.
> I suspect that there are a few people on this newsgroup that have been
> been labelled weird or strange.

Which, as far as I'm concerned, is a compliment.

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Am 16.08.2014 15:59, schrieb Thomas de Groot:
> On 16-8-2014 15:10, Le_Forgeron wrote:
>
>> Last note: trains run on left, but tramways is a different story, and
>> metro/tube too, they run on right (like car) in Paris.
>
> On the continent, /only/ in France trains are left-sided, if I am
> correct. ;-)

Wikipedia claims that Belgian, Italian, Portugese, Swedish and Swiss 
trains don't drive on the right (!) track either. Some Austrian railway 
lines also drive on the left.

Post a reply to this message

Am 16.08.2014 10:53, schrieb Stephen:

>> It might just as well be that a "non-heart-side stance" is simply a
>> better choice when encountering someone you don't trust because the
>> typically stronger right arm is better suited for fending off the other
>> person.
>
> That makes sense to me too. Look at fighters, swordsmen lead with their
> dominant side unless they have a shield. Then that is the side they lead
> with. Boxers lead with their "shield" side for protection. If they lead
> with their right hand forward they have a special name, southpaw. In
> judo it is the opposite way. So I think that this has to do with the
> discipline.
> In non fighting encounters. I have noticed that most people put their
> shaking hand forward.

Note that shaking hands wasn't originally a gesture of friendly greeting 
at all: Wealthy people would have their servants shake the hands of 
visitors to expose weapons hidden in the sleeves.

(Or so I've heard tell.)

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Am 15.08.2014 18:41, schrieb Stephen:
> On 15/08/2014 12:32, clipka wrote:
>> Am 15.08.2014 11:14, schrieb Stephen:
>
>>> Ah! it appears in PoseRay as a right hand drive. (The way that God
>>> intended. :-P )
>>
>> Well, there /is/ some practical reason why driving on the right lane is
>> more natural.
>
> Did the Supernatural Being of your choice tell you that? :-P

BTW, probably the oldest decree with respect to left- vs. right-side 
traffic is indeed a papal one, dating to 1300, and orders pilgrims to 
walk on the /right/ side of a particularly congested bridge in Rome 
(1300 being a "jubilee year", even more pilgrims flocked to Rome than 
normally).

That aside, it is obvious that the /right/ side to drive on is the 
/right/ side, right?

Post a reply to this message

On 16/08/2014 17:19, clipka wrote:
> Note that shaking hands wasn't originally a gesture of friendly greeting
> at all: Wealthy people would have their servants shake the hands of
> visitors to expose weapons hidden in the sleeves.
>
> (Or so I've heard tell.)

I did not know that.


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 16/08/2014 17:12, clipka wrote:
> Am 16.08.2014 15:59, schrieb Thomas de Groot:
>> On 16-8-2014 15:10, Le_Forgeron wrote:
>>
>>> Last note: trains run on left, but tramways is a different story, and
>>> metro/tube too, they run on right (like car) in Paris.
>>
>> On the continent, /only/ in France trains are left-sided, if I am
>> correct. ;-)
>
> Wikipedia claims that Belgian, Italian, Portugese, Swedish and Swiss
> trains don't drive on the right (!) track either. Some Austrian railway
> lines also drive on the left.
>

I read recently that in France it was British Engineers that built the 
first railways. So, you guessed it. The trains ran on the left.

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 16/08/2014 16:15, clipka wrote:
>
>> And before you or anyone else says it. I have often heard that I am
>> weird. And I play on that.
>> I suspect that there are a few people on this newsgroup that have been
>> been labelled weird or strange.
>
> Which, as far as I'm concerned, is a compliment.

To me as well.

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Okay, you win.
It is not worth going to war about.
(I can be magnanimous. Especially since I am right.) ;-)

On 16/08/2014 16:15, clipka wrote:
> Am 16.08.2014 10:53, schrieb Stephen:
>
>>> The candidates' task was to walk as straight as possible with limited
>>> information; whether people tend to veer to the left or right in such a
>>> circumstance says nothing about whether they prefer to walk left or
>>> right turns when walking in a circle deliberately.
>>>
>>
>> True but it shows that there is little bias to turn away from their
>> strong leg.
>
> No, all it shows is that when tasked with walking in a straight line,
> their compensation for any such bias they may or may not have works even
> when blindfolded.
>
>>> The tendency of people to prefer walking left turns over right turns has
>>> long been identified by /the/ one most motivated, well-funded and
>>> experienced branch of applied behavioural science of all: Marketing
>>> analysis. Shops are arranged on this basis, and it works.
>>>
>> Sources that it works? (and not psychobabble, please).
>> If shops had paths that wound to the right. I suspect that they would
>> still sell things.
>
> Yeah, but it's one of the little tweaks by which they influence /what/
> they sell (to an average person; they don't care much about
> individualists) - and also how much. Like that old trick to put the milk
> way at the back, because almost everyone has milk on their shopping
> list, so they make you walk past all the other goods that you might not
> have thought about when you made the list.
>
>> It sounds like juju to me. "Give me money and I will make you more mony
>> than you now have."
>
> I've first heard that a quarter of a century ago, at a time when - or so
> it seems to me - juju wasn't state of the art. Besides, it's such a
> trivial thing that you can't really "sell" that idea - and the shop
> owner can easily check whether it has any effect or not.
>
>
>>>>> So from a psychological point of view, to
>>>>> an otherwise unbiased person it will come more natural to make U-turns
>>>>> to the left rather than to the right.
>>>>
>>>> :-O
>>>
>>> Yup. Fortunately for you people on the island, you're all being biased
>>> during driving lessons :-)
>>
>> This is true as is the reverse.
>
> Sure. But my point is that the continental bias is more natural :-)
>
>> And before you or anyone else says it. I have often heard that I am
>> weird. And I play on that.
>> I suspect that there are a few people on this newsgroup that have been
>> been labelled weird or strange.
>
> Which, as far as I'm concerned, is a compliment.
>


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 16/08/2014 14:10, Le_Forgeron wrote:
> I heard that the winding sense of stairs is for defence of the building,
> assuming the main hand for the sword is the right one.
> So defendants get full movement range and assaulting get problems.
> So, the rotation is not the same when going to the vault or going to the
> roof, from the outside.
>

I did not know about the last part. The rest is history.


> The English driving on the left side is due to the sheath being on the
> left side (once again for the majority with a right hand for the sword),
> and horsed-armed-men should not collide the sheaths when crossing. It
> went to road and railway (and so far, trains on railway still "drive on
> left" even in France), because most trains first came from the island
> west of Brussels (but the spacing between the rails is due to the wide
> of the roman empire's horse's ass). Due to the large influences of the
> English Empire, many countries sticks to that convention.
> Napoleon might have hated that convention for Europe, but how do you
> explain that the continental north America also drives on the right ?

My understanding is that we just kept what the Romans did.
 From Wiki.
"In 1998, archaeologists found a well-preserved track leading to a Roman 
quarry near Swindon, England. The grooves in the road on the left side 
(viewed facing down the track away from the quarry) were much deeper 
than those on the right side. These grooves suggest that the Romans 
drove on the left, at least in this location, since carts would exit the 
quarry heavily loaded, and enter it empty."

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Am 16.08.2014 19:53, schrieb Stephen:

> I read recently that in France it was British Engineers that built the
> first railways. So, you guessed it. The trains ran on the left.

Not only in France. Which, to be fair, isn't much of a surprise given 
you guys' edge in the matter back then.

Post a reply to this message

clipka <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
> Am 16.08.2014 19:53, schrieb Stephen:
>
> > I read recently that in France it was British Engineers that built the
> > first railways. So, you guessed it. The trains ran on the left.
>
> Not only in France. Which, to be fair, isn't much of a surprise given
> you guys' edge in the matter back then.

I think that Jaime and Stephen did a very good job here. All the stuff about
hearts, livers and so on is only guesswork IMO. Pychological studies often lack
statistical significance, especially with such exotic topics. BTW I'm driving on
the left side of the road now for one week (and the following) with a
left-steered car from France and it took me only seconds to switch to the
English system. It as naturally to me as the German right-side driving. One
gests accustomed very soon.

Best regards,
Michael

Post a reply to this message

On 16-8-2014 20:01, Stephen wrote:
> My understanding is that we just kept what the Romans did.
>  From Wiki.
> "In 1998, archaeologists found a well-preserved track leading to a Roman
> quarry near Swindon, England. The grooves in the road on the left side
> (viewed facing down the track away from the quarry) were much deeper
> than those on the right side. These grooves suggest that the Romans
> drove on the left, at least in this location, since carts would exit the
> quarry heavily loaded, and enter it empty."
>

That's an interesting one! I take note.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

On 16-8-2014 20:01, Stephen wrote:
> On 16/08/2014 14:10, Le_Forgeron wrote:
>> I heard that the winding sense of stairs is for defence of the building,
>> assuming the main hand for the sword is the right one.
>> So defendants get full movement range and assaulting get problems.
>> So, the rotation is not the same when going to the vault or going to the
>> roof, from the outside.
>>
>
> I did not know about the last part. The rest is history.
>

One can suppose that left-handed fighters were sent to just those places 
to even out the odds.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

El 16/08/14 a las #4, Stephen escribió:
> The car's wheels wobble a bit as well.

   Yes, I still have to investigate why this happens, as the wheels 
constraints on the simulation shouldn't allow this movement. It happens 
much less if I reduce friction, but then it looses too much traction.

> I paid attention to them as I was thinking that if I gave you a series
> of meshes with the driver turning the steering wheel from -90° ~ 0° ~
> +90°. You could select a mesh depending on the angle of the car's front
> wheels.

   Yes, that is totally feasible, as I can export such data from the 
simulation.

> I am taking a couple of months off work so I have the time and I've not
> used Poser in a while. So I need to keep up my skills.
> No pressure.

   Unfortunately, I've had only a week of vacations this month, but 
should be able to work on it on the weekends.

> He is glued to the seat in fact  he intersects with the seat.

   Yes, I had to place it manually, when it should have fit perfectly 
given that you placed it over the actual seat used on the animation... 
I will look at it again to understand why this happens.

> Not a public road so no problem.

   Ah... yes, no problem then.

> But a model with one one hand on the gear stick would not be a problem.

   Don't worry... the acceleration is constant and fixed, and I'm not 
going to implement a gear box on the simulation. :)


--
jaime

Post a reply to this message

On 16/08/2014 21:28, MichaelJF wrote:
> All the stuff about
> hearts, livers and so on is only guesswork IMO.

Your opinion is my opinion too.

> Pychological studies often lack
> statistical significance, especially with such exotic topics.

That does not surprise me one little bit.

 > BTW I'm driving on
> the left side of the road now for one week (and the following) with a
> left-steered car from France and it took me only seconds to switch to the
> English system. It as naturally to me as the German right-side driving. One
> gets accustomed very soon.


Be careful when returning home.
After driving 4000 miles on the Continent in a RHD car. The first thing 
I did when returning home was to drive on the wrong side.

If you have any time and are going to London before returning home. We 
could have a London PovCon.

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

El 16/08/14 a las #4, Thomas de Groot escribió:
> Yes, I noticed that too. It was less in the first animation. Jaime,
> could you control the rate of angular change of the fore wheels? Make it
> more gradual?

   It's not going to be easy, but it's a must... so I will try.

--
jaime

Post a reply to this message

On 17/08/2014 09:37, Jaime Vives Piqueres wrote:
> El 16/08/14 a las #4, Stephen escribió:
>> The car's wheels wobble a bit as well.
>
>    Yes, I still have to investigate why this happens, as the wheels
> constraints on the simulation shouldn't allow this movement. It happens
> much less if I reduce friction, but then it looses too much traction.
>

Can you change the simulation rate (steps per frame) in Bullet Physics 
Playground?
Does changing that make a difference or changing the collision difference?

>> I paid attention to them as I was thinking that if I gave you a series
>> of meshes with the driver turning the steering wheel from -90° ~ 0° ~
>> +90°. You could select a mesh depending on the angle of the car's front
>> wheels.
>
>    Yes, that is totally feasible, as I can export such data from the
> simulation.
>

What resolution would you want?
How many degrees of revolution and the spacing between them?

>> I am taking a couple of months off work so I have the time and I've not
>> used Poser in a while. So I need to keep up my skills.
>> No pressure.
>
>    Unfortunately, I've had only a week of vacations this month, but
> should be able to work on it on the weekends.
>

Once I have made the meshes my part will be done. Then you can work on 
it at your leisure.

>> He is glued to the seat in fact  he intersects with the seat.
>
>    Yes, I had to place it manually, when it should have fit perfectly
> given that you placed it over the actual seat used on the animation... I
> will look at it again to understand why this happens.
>

I should have mentioned that you would need to do that.
The way I normally import meshes into Poser. I loose the positional 
information. I should have kept that and translated the figure to the 
seat. It should be better next time.

The model was just a proof of concept. I would take more care.
To add to the resolution question.
Would you want the driver to lean and look into a turn?
Actually you could have a series of meshes to play with @ the same cost 
as PovRay.
(Dr John, note the usage of the at sign. Points?)
Last thing.
The steering wheel would need to be attached to the driver's hands.


>> Not a public road so no problem.
>
>    Ah... yes, no problem then.
>
>> But a model with one one hand on the gear stick would not be a problem.
>
>    Don't worry... the acceleration is constant and fixed, and I'm not
> going to implement a gear box on the simulation. :)
>
Yes. One step at a time. :-)


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

El 17/08/14 a las #4, Stephen escribió:
> Can you change the simulation rate (steps per frame) in Bullet Physics
> Playground?
> Does changing that make a difference or changing the collision difference?

   Yes, I can, and maybe it's the way to give more stability to the 
suspension constrains... should try a.s.a.p.

>>    Yes, that is totally feasible, as I can export such data from the
>> simulation.
>>
>
> What resolution would you want?
> How many degrees of revolution and the spacing between them?

   Well, given that I'm steering with the keyboard, the car steering is 
all-or-nothing, with "all" being 45º. So, maybe 3 steps of 15º will be 
enough, but I still have to see how I do that...

> I should have mentioned that you would need to do that.
> The way I normally import meshes into Poser. I loose the positional
> information. I should have kept that and translated the figure to the
> seat. It should be better next time.

   Ah... I assumed it was in place respect to the original "inner" mesh. 
Will place it myself with Wings3d and export it back.

> To add to the resolution question.
> Would you want the driver to lean and look into a turn?

   Well, that would be awesome, no doubt... :)

> Last thing.
> The steering wheel would need to be attached to the driver's hands.

   Yes, maybe it's the best solution.

   Regards,

--
jaime

Post a reply to this message

On 17/08/2014 22:44, Jaime Vives Piqueres wrote:
> El 17/08/14 a las #4, Stephen escribió:
>> Can you change the simulation rate (steps per frame) in Bullet Physics
>> Playground?
>> Does changing that make a difference or changing the collision
>> difference?
>
>    Yes, I can, and maybe it's the way to give more stability to the
> suspension constrains... should try a.s.a.p.
>

Sometimes less is more. :-)

>>>    Yes, that is totally feasible, as I can export such data from the
>>> simulation.
>>>
>>
>> What resolution would you want?
>> How many degrees of revolution and the spacing between them?
>
>    Well, given that I'm steering with the keyboard, the car steering is
> all-or-nothing, with "all" being 45º. So, maybe 3 steps of 15º will be
> enough, but I still have to see how I do that...
>

Sorry? You are steering in real time?

I downloaded Bullet Physics a while ago but it is on Thomas's to do 
list, :-)

I am impressed.

>> I should have mentioned that you would need to do that.
>> The way I normally import meshes into Poser. I loose the positional
>> information. I should have kept that and translated the figure to the
>> seat. It should be better next time.
>
>    Ah... I assumed it was in place respect to the original "inner" mesh.
> Will place it myself with Wings3d and export it back.
>

I hope that there will be no need. I started another session leaving the 
seat in place and I hope that will fix that problem.

>> To add to the resolution question.
>> Would you want the driver to lean and look into a turn?
>
>    Well, that would be awesome, no doubt... :)
>

Okay on my todo list after we get the wheel turning sorted.

>> Last thing.
>> The steering wheel would need to be attached to the driver's hands.
>
>    Yes, maybe it's the best solution.
>

I separated the steering wheel from the rest of the car's interior, in 
Blender, and uploaded it to p.b.misc

Just to check you can merge the wheel into your model and to see where 
the cut is.
Do you prefer 3DS format?
I will try to get a rotation of the wheel in the Y axis (local), to turn 
the hands.

It might be less messy on this thread if we communicate directly. My 
address should be visible.



-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 18-8-2014 0:53, Stephen wrote:
> I downloaded Bullet Physics a while ago but it is on Thomas's to do
> list, :-)

No problem. I can send you a copy of my list if you want, with a couple 
of RT's ;-)

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

On 18/08/2014 08:17, Thomas de Groot wrote:
> On 18-8-2014 0:53, Stephen wrote:
>> I downloaded Bullet Physics a while ago but it is on Thomas's to do
>> list, :-)
>
> No problem. I can send you a copy of my list if you want, with a couple
> of RT's ;-)
>
> Thomas
>

Thanks Thomas.I'll put it on my list when I get round to it.

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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El 18/08/14 a las #4, Stephen escribió:
> Sorry? You are steering in real time?

   Yes, the "drivable car" demo is like a little and very simplistic car 
driving game: you have keys to accelerate/brake and steering, so you can 
drive it around the obstacles. I usually practice first what I want to 
do, then repeat it after pressing the pov-export button.

> It might be less messy on this thread if we communicate directly. My
> address should be visible.

   Ok, I will contact there when I'm ready to do more tests...

--
jaime

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