Op 29-5-2023 om 16:21 schreef Kenneth:
> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
>>
>> It is available at the POV-Ray site itself:
>>
>> https://www.povray.org/ftp/pub/povray/Old-Versions/Official-3.5/Windows/
>>
> 
> Great! Many thanks. Just out of curiosity, is there an obvious or official link
> to that page, somewhere in the newsgroups?
> 
> I wonder if there are even earlier versions available, tucked away in some
> equally obscure(?) location.
> 

Yes. Go to the official site: https://www.povray.org/download/

Scroll to the bottom of the page where you will find "Old Versions of 
POV-Ray". They tell us that all official releases since version 1.0 can 
be found there (old version tree).

-- 
Thomas

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"Bald Eagle" <cre### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
>
> I'm guessing that Moray somehow needs the editor to make the SDL file, and
> that's why POV-Ray needs to be installed.
> [snip]
> Maybe a later version can be renamed and placed into a 3.5 directory to see what
> happens?
>

That gives me a rather crazy(?) idea for an experiment with POV-ray v3.7/3.8 and
Windows 10 : I wonder if POV's v3.5 magical DLL(s) that Thomas mentioned could
be placed instead in the appropriate v3.7/3.8 folder location--assuming that
Windows will allow it-- then to see if Moray will recognize those DLL(s)
*there*. The idea being that Moray might then work correctly with POV v3.7/3.8
when Moray's F9 or Ctrl-F9 commands are invoked. Assuming that Moray is given
the correct library path.

I really have no clue as to what might happen; playing with DLLs is not my
'standard practice', ha. Maybe it would melt-down Windows 10 into slag :-O  But
hopefully not.

It seems like an experiment worth trying, at least.

But first, I need to try out the 'proper' combination of Moray and POV v3.5, to
see if that solves my 'export' problem.

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Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> Op 29-5-2023 om 16:21 schreef Kenneth:
> > Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> >
> > I wonder if there are even earlier versions available, tucked away in some
> > equally obscure(?) location.
> >
>
> Yes. Go to the official site: https://www.povray.org/download/
>
> Scroll to the bottom of the page where you will find "Old Versions of
> POV-Ray". They tell us that all official releases since version 1.0 can
> be found there (old version tree).
>

Well well! Not as obscure as I thought, ha. Thanks. I just need to use my
eyeballs better.

BY THE WAY: I have not been able to locate Moray itself as being available
anywhere; my searches have turned up no links. I thought that there was--or used
to be-- a link to it, somewhere on one of the official newsgroup pages. Maybe
I'm just being 'blind' again?

Luckily, I happened to have an archived copy of the Moray v3.5 installer from
long ago.

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In Moray, something which seems to work *every* time(? fingers crossed) 
is using The "Export" option under the "Render" switch, alternatively 
Ctrl+F9 . This bypasses the use of POV-Ray v3.5 and writes the INC, INI, 
and POV group of files from the MDL scene to the POVScn folder. Do *not* 
use the "Export" option under the "File" switch!!

Hope this works for you too. It would solve the present conundrum.

-- 
Thomas

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Op 29-5-2023 om 17:13 schreef Kenneth:
> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
>> Op 29-5-2023 om 16:21 schreef Kenneth:
>>> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
>>>
>>> I wonder if there are even earlier versions available, tucked away in some
>>> equally obscure(?) location.
>>>
>>
>> Yes. Go to the official site: https://www.povray.org/download/
>>
>> Scroll to the bottom of the page where you will find "Old Versions of
>> POV-Ray". They tell us that all official releases since version 1.0 can
>> be found there (old version tree).
>>
> 
> Well well! Not as obscure as I thought, ha. Thanks. I just need to use my
> eyeballs better.
> 
> BY THE WAY: I have not been able to locate Moray itself as being available
> anywhere; my searches have turned up no links. I thought that there was--or used
> to be-- a link to it, somewhere on one of the official newsgroup pages. Maybe
> I'm just being 'blind' again?
> 
> Luckily, I happened to have an archived copy of the Moray v3.5 installer from
> long ago.
> 
Afaik, since the Moray site closed down a couple of years ago, Moray 3.5 
has not been available any more anywhere on the web. I also got a copy 
in my archives (Build 9330). I still have a register code but as the 
site is down I cannot use it.

-- 
Thomas

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Just to prove my claim :-)


-- 
Thomas

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Attachments:
Download 'eschertriangle.png' (533 KB)

Preview of image 'eschertriangle.png'

Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> In Moray, something which seems to work *every* time(? fingers crossed)
> is using The "Export" option under the "Render" switch, alternatively
> Ctrl+F9 . This bypasses the use of POV-Ray v3.5 and writes the INC, INI,
> and POV group of files from the MDL scene to the POVScn folder. Do *not*
> use the "Export" option under the "File" switch!!
>
> Hope this works for you too. It would solve the present conundrum.
>

[Kenneth wrote:]
>
> I need to try out the 'proper' combination of Moray and POV v3.5, to
> see if that solves my 'export' problem.

Just to follow up: The combination of POV-ray v3.5, Moray v3.5 and Windows 10
shows some really weird and quirky behavior, some of which I discovered purely
by chance.

Assuming that the library paths are stated correctly in Moray's 'Render/Render
Options' dialog box...

1) The only way I can get Moray and POV v3.5 to work consistently together is to
start Moray first. After creating a scene there as an .mdl file, or loading one
of the demo .mdl scenes, I can then hit 'Render/Raytrace' (or F9), which
automatically starts POV 3.5 and renders the scene *in* POV. Great!  But this
works only once: POV-ray needs to be shut down after each Moray-to-POV render.
Otherwise, trying to re-render the Moray scene (or another one) while POV-ray is
still up and running causes POV to hang. It has to be shut down...which then
also causes Moray to hang.

But shutting down POV-ray after each render fixes that, and they both continue
to work together.

2) So far, trying to run POV v3.5 *by itself* in Windows 10 just doesn't work
for me. It loads OK, but trying to render a scene causes it to hang. (Perhaps
I'm not configuring it correctly?)

-------
The biggest quirk has to do with trying to export the Moray scene as an SDL
file-- for later rendering/editing-- by using Moray's 'Render'/'Export' button.
It DOES work, and the SDL/.pov scene file does get written into Moray's POVscn
folder-- but the Windows file explorer shows that folder to be empty! So does a
file search. This is a really strange Windows problem that I have not
encountered before--maybe a registry error due to Moray's very old code? The
only way I can 'see' the contents of that folder is from within POV-ray v3.5
(!), using the typical 'open file' menu. (The folder contents do NOT show up
when running v3.8 or v3.7.) They also appear from within Moray itself.
Otherwise, there seems to be no easy way to see or access those files... for me
at least.

The *workaround* is to open the exported SDL scene in POV-ray 3.5-- without
rendering it there-- then simply copy/paste it into a NEW  external text file or
..pov file, then save it.

In effect, POV v3.5 is now just a temporary 'relay station' for getting the
scene out of Moray and into a more modern version of POV-ray.

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Op 5-6-2023 om 09:42 schreef Kenneth:
> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
>> In Moray, something which seems to work *every* time(? fingers crossed)
>> is using The "Export" option under the "Render" switch, alternatively
>> Ctrl+F9 . This bypasses the use of POV-Ray v3.5 and writes the INC, INI,
>> and POV group of files from the MDL scene to the POVScn folder. Do *not*
>> use the "Export" option under the "File" switch!!
>>
>> Hope this works for you too. It would solve the present conundrum.
>>
> 
> [Kenneth wrote:]
>>
>> I need to try out the 'proper' combination of Moray and POV v3.5, to
>> see if that solves my 'export' problem.
> 
> Just to follow up: The combination of POV-ray v3.5, Moray v3.5 and Windows 10
> shows some really weird and quirky behavior, some of which I discovered purely
> by chance.
> 
Agreed.

> Assuming that the library paths are stated correctly in Moray's 'Render/Render
> Options' dialog box...
> 
> 1) The only way I can get Moray and POV v3.5 to work consistently together is to
> start Moray first. After creating a scene there as an .mdl file, or loading one
> of the demo .mdl scenes, I can then hit 'Render/Raytrace' (or F9), which
> automatically starts POV 3.5 and renders the scene *in* POV. Great!  But this
> works only once: POV-ray needs to be shut down after each Moray-to-POV render.
> Otherwise, trying to re-render the Moray scene (or another one) while POV-ray is
> still up and running causes POV to hang. It has to be shut down...which then
> also causes Moray to hang.
> 
Same here.

> But shutting down POV-ray after each render fixes that, and they both continue
> to work together.
> 
Same here.

> 2) So far, trying to run POV v3.5 *by itself* in Windows 10 just doesn't work
> for me. It loads OK, but trying to render a scene causes it to hang. (Perhaps
> I'm not configuring it correctly?)
> 
Same here.

> -------
> The biggest quirk has to do with trying to export the Moray scene as an SDL
> file-- for later rendering/editing-- by using Moray's 'Render'/'Export' button.
> It DOES work, and the SDL/.pov scene file does get written into Moray's POVscn
> folder-- but the Windows file explorer shows that folder to be empty! So does a
> file search. This is a really strange Windows problem that I have not
> encountered before--maybe a registry error due to Moray's very old code? The
> only way I can 'see' the contents of that folder is from within POV-ray v3.5
> (!), using the typical 'open file' menu. (The folder contents do NOT show up
> when running v3.8 or v3.7.) They also appear from within Moray itself.
> Otherwise, there seems to be no easy way to see or access those files... for me
> at least.
> 
I should probably say "Same here" again, although /simple/ scenes 
seem(?) to export correctly to the POVScn folder I defined. However, 
more complex scenes (for instance, containing a mesh) only export a 
header or nothing... So, not entirely reliable as I seemed to imply in 
my previous post.

> The *workaround* is to open the exported SDL scene in POV-ray 3.5-- without
> rendering it there-- then simply copy/paste it into a NEW  external text file or
> ..pov file, then save it.
> 
Yes, same here too.

> In effect, POV v3.5 is now just a temporary 'relay station' for getting the
> scene out of Moray and into a more modern version of POV-ray.
> 
That is also my conclusion. Why POV-Ray v3.5 refuses to behave correctly 
under Win10 (or Win11 for that matter) is a mystery to me. Otherwise, 
Moray seems to work correctly under both platforms.

I don't know about you Kenneth, but I think I shall leave it at that 
(other priorities are piling up). As always, It was a pleasure to do 
this testing in cooperation with you!

I shall probably use Moray once in a while just for old time's sake, and 
to not loose the feeling with it. I loved that program but it certainly 
needs a serious upgrade, but that is an entirely different story.

cheers!

-- 
Thomas

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Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> Op 5-6-2023 om 09:42 schreef Kenneth:
>
> > In effect, POV v3.5 is now just a temporary 'relay station' for getting the
> > scene out of Moray and into a more modern version of POV-ray.
> >
> That is also my conclusion. Why POV-Ray v3.5 refuses to behave correctly
> under Win10 (or Win11 for that matter) is a mystery to me. Otherwise,
> Moray seems to work correctly under both platforms.
>
> I don't know about you Kenneth, but I think I shall leave it at that
> (other priorities are piling up).

Agreed, sadly. The combination of quirks is rather cumbersome to deal with.
Although, it's nice to have at least *a* method now, to make everything work
together and to get a Moray scene to export.

> As always, It was a pleasure to do this testing in cooperation with you!

Same here!

---------
[Thomas wrote:]
> It seems that the /special/ DLL provided by Moray to communicate with
> POV-Ray, only works with version 3.5.

[Kenneth:]
> That gives me a rather crazy(?) idea for an experiment with POV-ray
> v3.7/3.8 and Windows 10 : I wonder if POV's v3.5 magical DLL(s) could
> be placed instead in the appropriate v3.7/3.8 folder location...then to
> see if Moray will recognize those DLL(s) *there*.

Well, THAT  was a silly idea. The magical DLL in question -- MorayCtrl.dll
("Moray Communications") -- is part of the Moray installation itself. I thought
it might be something that was included with POV-ray v3.5 instead.

I guess it's code would have to be re-written to work with later versions of
POV.

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"eric" <evo### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> It's a pleasure to annonce that Moray 3.5 and Povray 3.5 run on Windows 11. I
> don't know why but it works with Windows 11 .

Hi,

how did you do that? That's a miracle!

I tried to install Povray 3.5 (32 Bit version - no choice there) on Windows 10
(64 Bit Version). It installs, but refuses to render. Tried to use compatible
mode (for Windows XP). No go.

I did not try to install Moray 3.5 as I know if Povray doesn't work Moray will
neither.

Please let us know how you made it work.

Cheers, Droj

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