Well the results for June are in and I'm very disappointed with them.
Out of eleven entries only five people could be bothered to vote. And
one person gave 1-1-1 to three entries which I think is a disgrace and
not in the spirit of the challenge. (My entry got 5-5-1 from the same
person but that is a different matter.) The results are so skewed that
they are meaningless. This, I think, is an insult to our community and
to St who has spent a lot of time and his own money setting up this
site for us.
I have made a quick analysis of the scores and here they are:

As they stand

		Total	Rank
septime		194	1
ian		194	1
DrNo		182	3
rmcgregor	178	4
ThomdeG	157	5
kallo.b		150	6
milco2006	148	7
steve		142	8
Michelobst	133	9
Stephen		130	10
lequenne	128	11

With a straight average

	 	Avg	Rank Avg
rmcgregor	0.741667	1
ThomdeG	0.654167	2
septime		0.646667	3
ian		0.646667	3
DrNo		0.606667	5
steve		0.591667	6
Stephen		0.541667	7
lequenne	0.533333	8
kallo.b		0.5		9
milco2006	0.493333	10
Michelobst	0.443333	11


With a weighted average. I discounted the lowest score and added the
average of the remainder to the discounted score;

	 	Avg less lowest	Rank Avg less lowest
rmcgregor	0.805556	1
steve		0.711111	2
ThomdeG	0.705556	3
lequenne	0.694444	4
ian		0.691667	5
septime		0.6875		6
DrNo		0.666667	7
Stephen		0.661111	8
kallo.b		0.6125		9
milco2006	0.604167	10
Michelobst	0.541667	11

With the original score and a bonus of 20-20-20 to everyone who voted.

	 	Bonus for voting		Bonus Rank
rmcgregor	0.793333	1
ThomdeG	0.723333	2
steve		0.673333	3
septime		0.646667	4
ian		0.646667	4
Stephen		0.633333	6
lequenne	0.626667	7
DrNo		0.606667	8
kallo.b		0.5		9
milco2006	0.493333	10
Michelobst	0.443333	11
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Thanks very much for that Stephen, much appreciated. The 20/20/20 system is 
something that will probably be implemented in time for the next voting, and 
a newsletter within the next week(ish) should be expected too. As for the 
present situation, we've decided to award a joint-first status in this round 
(if anyone was wondering). The website has been updated: 
http://www.tc-rtc.co.uk

  As a side note, and something personal from me to you all, (this isn't 
aimed at you in particular Stephen). I totally agree that low scoring like 
that is an obvious attempt at skewing the final results and definately not 
in keeping with the "fair play" side of things. (*My* observation). Can we 
keep it good and try to score fairly please? I know most of you do. :)

  I'm trying to do my best to get this right for everyone. I think it's a 
fun contest, and it certainly works ok - apart from some unnoticed bugs and 
behaviors that is. If you spot something, just mail me from the contacts 
page on the site.


    Steve

Post a reply to this message

"St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote:
> Thanks very much for that Stephen, much appreciated. The 20/20/20 system is
> something that will probably be implemented in time for the next voting,

I have to say that adding a bonus of 20 to everyone who votes seems a little
strange as the only reason I did not vote (as discussed in previous thread
here) is that I could not, thus those who vote gain a good boost by getting 20
extra points for each section for voting. Surely it would be more logical to
add their average score to their overall to make up the difference.

> I totally agree that low scoring like that is an obvious attempt at skewing the >
final results and definately not in
 keeping with the "fair play" side of things. > (*My* observation).

The very low vote seems curious as it seriously weights the voting against
certain entries. Although I realise that you [stephen] have analysed the
results with just missing out that vote (which is good) it still doesn't really
make up for the equivilent of a productive balanced vote on all entries sadly.

>   I'm trying to do my best to get this right for everyone. I think it's a
> fun contest, and it certainly works ok

Thank you again for spending so much effort running the contest, it is running
fairly smoothly in my opinion. And although I don't rate very high yet I am
learning loads and really enjoying entering the contest. I just really hope
that we get a good number of entries and votes in the next round!

Malcolm

Post a reply to this message

Okay, wait a minute Steven, you're saying that with all of those alternate
scoring options: the straight average, weighted average, or the original score
and 20-20-20 voting bonus methods, that I, rmcgregor, actually got 1st place?

LOL. Well, I worked a LOT harder on "Slaver's Gorge" than I have on any of my
previous entries, so that makes my poor little ego feel somewhat better, heh!

Thanks :)
-Rob

"There is no spoon."

Post a reply to this message

"Robert McGregor" <rob### [at] mcgregorfineartcom> wrote:
> Okay, wait a minute Steven, you're saying that with all of those alternate

Apologetically fumble-fingered: *Stephen

Post a reply to this message

"St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote:
>   As a side note, and something personal from me to you all, (this isn't
> aimed at you in particular Stephen). I totally agree that low scoring like
> that is an obvious attempt at skewing the final results and definitely not
> in keeping with the "fair play" side of things. (*My* observation). Can we
> keep it good and try to score fairly please? I know most of you do. :)

So, someone was trying to skew the results, eh? Bah! Baahh!!
Okay, we're watching you guys...

>   I'm trying to do my best to get this right for everyone. I think it's a
> fun contest, and it certainly works ok - apart from some unnoticed bugs and
> behaviors that is. If you spot something, just mail me from the contacts
> page on the site.

I think this month was the first time that the voting app was really intuitive
and functioning the way I expected, good visual feedback on which images had
been voted on already, and love the expandable comment box, etc - really nice
job on that Steve! (I know how troublesome that sort of thing can become)

One bug I need to report is that it didn't put me 1st place this round - can
you look into that please ;?  Stephen apparently has mathematical options where
I always win (woot!)...

-Rob :)

"There is no spoon."

Post a reply to this message

On Thu,  3 Jul 2008 18:48:31 EDT, "Robert McGregor" <rob### [at] mcgregorfineartcom>
wrote:

>Okay, wait a minute Steven, you're saying that with all of those alternate
>scoring options: the straight average, weighted average, or the original score
>and 20-20-20 voting bonus methods, that I, rmcgregor, actually got 1st place?
>
>LOL. Well, I worked a LOT harder on "Slaver's Gorge" than I have on any of my
>previous entries, so that makes my poor little ego feel somewhat better, heh!
>
>Thanks :)
>-Rob
>
Yes I did work it out that way. Sums available on request :)
If you had not voted I think that you would have won outright. But you did and
I'm sure that you sleep better for it :)
Unfortunately I couldn't get my score higher than sixth but that serves me right
for uploading a placeholder and not finishing the scene. :)
I got distracted with an entry for the animation challenge.

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

I was looking through the images this round and I found there are several
favorites of mine, several -should have- winners, which I can´t make up my mind
about. This is highly unusual as I normally have only a one or two absolute
favorites.

There is a stunning quality throughout and you Steve can be proud to be a part
of this (or should I say the creator of this) competition.

Yeah I know, too bad I never seem to find the time to participate.

Well, maybe the next round.... one can dream....

Anyway, I´m still following this competition and I like where it´s going. The
rules have been improved and the submissions are improving as well, meaning
that people are taking this seriously and putting an extra effort into their
work. Which is great.

Anyway, just wanted to say hi!

Hildur Kolbrun

Post a reply to this message

On Mon,  7 Jul 2008 08:21:57 EDT, "Hildur K." <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net>
wrote:

>I was looking through the images this round and I found there are several
>favorites of mine, several -should have- winners, which I can´t make up my mind
>about. This is highly unusual as I normally have only a one or two absolute
>favorites.
>

That is good to hear.

>There is a stunning quality throughout and you Steve can be proud to be a part
>of this (or should I say the creator of this) competition.
>

Well the credit goes to Steve. He set up the site and maintains it. 

>Yeah I know, too bad I never seem to find the time to participate.
>
>Well, maybe the next round.... one can dream....
>

Yes indeed! The time frame is long enough so you can work on it slowly,
especially for animations.

>Anyway, I´m still following this competition and I like where it´s going. The
>rules have been improved and the submissions are improving as well, meaning
>that people are taking this seriously and putting an extra effort into their
>work. Which is great.
>

Having an end goal helps keep down those unfinished projects :)

>Anyway, just wanted to say hi!


And hi to you, Hildur
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Stephen <mcavoysAT@aolDOTcom> wrote:
> On Thu,  3 Jul 2008 18:48:31 EDT, "Robert McGregor" <rob### [at] mcgregorfineartcom>
> wrote:
>
> >Okay, wait a minute Steven, you're saying that with all of those alternate
> >scoring options: the straight average, weighted average, or the original score
> >and 20-20-20 voting bonus methods, that I, rmcgregor, actually got 1st place?
> >
> >LOL. Well, I worked a LOT harder on "Slaver's Gorge" than I have on any of my
> >previous entries, so that makes my poor little ego feel somewhat better, heh!
> >
> >Thanks :)
> >-Rob
> >
> Yes I did work it out that way. Sums available on request :)
> If you had not voted I think that you would have won outright. But you did and
> I'm sure that you sleep better for it :)
> Unfortunately I couldn't get my score higher than sixth but that serves me right
> for uploading a placeholder and not finishing the scene. :)
> I got distracted with an entry for the animation challenge.
>
> --
>
> Regards
>      Stephen

Thanks Stephen, I'm still not sure how me NOT voting would have made my overall
score better
(that's just counterintuitive). Regardless, why would an entrant WANT to
NOT vote? That's part of participating in the competition as far as I'm
concerned. Maybe there should be penalties for NOT voting.

-Rob

Post a reply to this message

On Mon,  7 Jul 2008 16:02:33 EDT, "Robert McGregor" <rob### [at] mcgregorfineartcom>
wrote:

>
>Thanks Stephen, I'm still not sure how me NOT voting would have made my overall
>score better

Your total score would not have been better but everyone elses would have been
lower. Making your ranking higher.

>(that's just counterintuitive). Regardless, why would an entrant WANT to
>NOT vote? 

So they win ;)

>That's part of participating in the competition as far as I'm
>concerned. 

Me too.

>Maybe there should be penalties for NOT voting.

It may come to pass :)
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

> Well the credit goes to Steve. He set up the site and maintains it.

Heh (embarrassed), I got you guys mixed up... maybe I should try to slow down
and read more carefully, I mean, I do know Steve is St.

Anyway, I think he too must have read the message, no need to repeat in another
post ;) Right?

Hildur K

Post a reply to this message

On Tue,  8 Jul 2008 05:28:52 EDT, "Hildur K." <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net>
wrote:

>
>
>> Well the credit goes to Steve. He set up the site and maintains it.
>
>Heh (embarrassed), I got you guys mixed up... maybe I should try to slow down
>and read more carefully, I mean, I do know Steve is St.

No worries :)

>Anyway, I think he too must have read the message, no need to repeat in another
>post ;) Right?
>

Right ;)
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Hey, hi Hildur, nice to see you're still around, and thanks for the 
encouraging thoughts, much appreciated.

  Yes, Colin and myself are doing our best to get this right, and so far, so 
good. I have to admit that it surely isn't the easiest of things to get 
right though because it seems something 'happens' every time it's tested. ;) 
And then these things have to be ironed-out and honed, (hopefully).

  But yes, the standard of images for me personally are certainly *very* 
inspiring. I actually feel honored in some strange way that these guys are 
producing these images for the comp. (Not including myself of course...)  ;)

   Anyway, I think it's working and as long as everyone thinks of it as 
'Fun' in a hobby kind of way, then all should be good. :)

  Hey, and don't worry about not entering, I'm sure you will one day and 
I'll look forward to that. :)

     ~Steve~


"Hildur K." <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> wrote in message 
news:web.48720a651e626beb8af90a170@news.povray.org...
>I was looking through the images this round and I found there are several
> favorites of mine, several -should have- winners, which I can´t make up my 
> mind
> about. This is highly unusual as I normally have only a one or two 
> absolute
> favorites.
>
> There is a stunning quality throughout and you Steve can be proud to be a 
> part
> of this (or should I say the creator of this) competition.
>
> Yeah I know, too bad I never seem to find the time to participate.
>
> Well, maybe the next round.... one can dream....
>
> Anyway, I´m still following this competition and I like where it´s going. 
> The
> rules have been improved and the submissions are improving as well, 
> meaning
> that people are taking this seriously and putting an extra effort into 
> their
> work. Which is great.
>
> Anyway, just wanted to say hi!
>
> Hildur Kolbrun
>
>
>

Post a reply to this message

"Robert McGregor" <rob### [at] mcgregorfineartcom> wrote in message 
news:web.486d5f391e626bebbd1b3ad10@news.povray.org...
> "St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote:

> So, someone was trying to skew the results, eh? Bah! Baahh!!
> Okay, we're watching you guys...

 Heh... :) Well, yes, I see everything anyway, but let's just say that I 
'hope' it doesn't happen again.

> I think this month was the first time that the voting app was really 
> intuitive
> and functioning the way I expected, good visual feedback on which images 
> had
> been voted on already, and love the expandable comment box, etc - really 
> nice
> job on that Steve! (I know how troublesome that sort of thing can become)

   I wish that was me that did that, but no, it was my website coder guru, 
Colin. (He would love that!)  ;)

>
> One bug I need to report is that it didn't put me 1st place this round - 
> can
> you look into that please ;?  Stephen apparently has mathematical options 
> where
> I always win (woot!)...
>

   Lol! Heh, just be happy that you are an extremely good artist, and that 
this wannabe artist wishes he had your talent.* :)

    *Working on it.  ;)

      ~Steve~



> -Rob :)
>
> "There is no spoon."

Post a reply to this message

>
>   Hey, and don't worry about not entering, I'm sure you will one day and
> I'll look forward to that. :)
>
>      ~Steve~

Thanks Steve :)

I´ve got into that bad habit of working too much (the wormhole of doing what I
like the most (you may guess what that is) for a living) and having too many
other diverse interests and hobbies on the side as well, has taken all my time
and energy in the last couple of years.

On a more positive note: it can be done! All I know I learned from the IRTC and
you guys and this community and from trial and error of course. So I owe a lot
to you!

I like to keep an eye on everything that´s going on, just to stay tuned and I
like to feel that I´m somehow still a part of all this, even though invisible
most of the time.

Hildur

Post a reply to this message

"Hildur K." <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> schreef in bericht 
news:web.4874a3761e626beb32594f8b0@news.povray.org...
>
>
> I like to keep an eye on everything that´s going on, just to stay tuned 
> and I
> like to feel that I´m somehow still a part of all this, even though 
> invisible
> most of the time.
>

Ha! But we feel the eye of the master...!  ;-)

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Robert McGregor" <rob### [at] mcgregorfineartcom> schreef in bericht 
news:web.487275fb1e626beb86ff1d480@news.povray.org...
> Stephen <mcavoysAT@aolDOTcom> wrote:
>
> Thanks Stephen, I'm still not sure how me NOT voting would have made my 
> overall
> score better
> (that's just counterintuitive). Regardless, why would an entrant WANT to
> NOT vote? That's part of participating in the competition as far as I'm
> concerned. Maybe there should be penalties for NOT voting.
>

For some obscure reason I have not visited this ng for a long time, so I 
come in late in the discussion.

I certainly would like there to be some incentive (should I say coercion??) 
for voting. The competition gets sense if the participants also vote. Apart 
from the reason that not voting might lift you up (I am still unsure about 
that as a purposeful action), and reasons of strict personal impossibility 
which can always happen (I was physically unable to vote for the 
november-december topic for instance), my impression would be that it is 
pure, raw, laziness to just take the trouble to vote. Human nature in action 
as it were?

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote:
> "Hildur K." <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> schreef in bericht
> news:web.4874a3761e626beb32594f8b0@news.povray.org...
> >
> >
> > I like to keep an eye on everything that´s going on, just to stay tuned
> > and I
> > like to feel that I´m somehow still a part of all this, even though
> > invisible
> > most of the time.
> >
>
> Ha! But we feel the eye of the master...!  ;-)
>
> Thomas


Me the "master", ha, ha, right! Big Brother (um... sister) is watching!

Post a reply to this message

On a more serious note (rant),

It´s your talent I´m "watching" so I can keep up and don´t fall into the rut of
just repeating myself. Trying to keep myself from stagnation, seeing your work
encourages me to push the limit.

And c´mon Thomas, your renderings are getting better and better, making me
wonder how the hell did he do this and how about that! Your´s last is a
favorite and an inspiration, great work on that bridge!

Hildur

Post a reply to this message

"Hildur K." <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> schreef in bericht 
news:web.487cb8ce1e626beb21c3a4290@news.povray.org...
> On a more serious note (rant),
>
> It´s your talent I´m "watching" so I can keep up and don´t fall into the 
> rut of
> just repeating myself. Trying to keep myself from stagnation, seeing your 
> work
> encourages me to push the limit.
>
> And c´mon Thomas, your renderings are getting better and better, making me
> wonder how the hell did he do this and how about that! Your´s last is a
> favorite and an inspiration, great work on that bridge!
>

Oh, thank you indeed, Hildur! Much appreciated!

This is what I some much like in the competitions or in the ng's: that there 
is a shared stimulus towards better work, like you say, pushing the limit 
each time further. I am sure I could not have achieved what I sometimes am 
able to achieve without the inspiration and comments from others. The 
quality of others' work makes me more demanding on my own, and that is an 
excellent thing indeed. I am sure that many of us feel the same.

You know that your Forgotten Neighbourhood is still haunting me? It is one 
of those scenes that has made a deep and lasting impression on me.

Regards,

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote:
> "Hildur K." <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> schreef in bericht
> news:web.487cb8ce1e626beb21c3a4290@news.povray.org...


>
> This is what I some much like in the competitions or in the ng's: that there
> is a shared stimulus towards better work, like you say, pushing the limit
> each time further. I am sure I could not have achieved what I sometimes am
> able to achieve without the inspiration and comments from others. The
> quality of others' work makes me more demanding on my own, and that is an
> excellent thing indeed. I am sure that many of us feel the same.

Exactly my point. Without the support of this community I would still be
rendering TINA CHEP.
>
> You know that your Forgotten Neighbourhood is still haunting me? It is one
> of those scenes that has made a deep and lasting impression on me.
>
Thank you so much Thomas.

In fact, back then I was living alone, unemployed, (and bit depressed) and had
all the time in the world... which suggests that unemployment combined with
this community, is a perfect match ;) I´m probably not the only one.

Hildur

Post a reply to this message

"Hildur K." <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> schreef in bericht 
news:web.487f34c51e626beb21c3a4290@news.povray.org...
> "Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote:
>> "Hildur K." <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> schreef in bericht
>> news:web.487cb8ce1e626beb21c3a4290@news.povray.org...
>
> Exactly my point. Without the support of this community I would still be
> rendering TINA CHEP.

LOL

> In fact, back then I was living alone, unemployed, (and bit depressed) and 
> had
> all the time in the world... which suggests that unemployment combined 
> with
> this community, is a perfect match ;) I´m probably not the only one.

I agree. I am retired, and with (almost) all the time in the world   :-)
On the serious side: I sometimes believe that working with POV-Ray etc, is 
mildly therapeutic... At least, it is intoxicating.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote:

>
> I agree. I am retired, and with (almost) all the time in the world   :-)

I´ve seen retired people hanging around their previous workplaces, not knowing
what to do to spend the rest of their days, which in many cases is a matter of
several decades. Kind of depressing.

So which one is it? Either you retired young (won the lottery perhaps?)
or you retired and still young (won the biological lottery?)

> On the serious side: I sometimes believe that working with POV-Ray etc, is
> mildly therapeutic... At least, it is intoxicating.

Exactly.

Hildur

Post a reply to this message

"Hildur K." <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> schreef in bericht 
news:web.487fbd701e626beb21c3a4290@news.povray.org...
>
> I´ve seen retired people hanging around their previous workplaces, not 
> knowing
> what to do to spend the rest of their days, which in many cases is a 
> matter of
> several decades. Kind of depressing.

Yes, that is sad. However, this is not always their own fault. Life and 
circumstances may not have given them the opportunities to develop something 
else besides their work. Because that is essential. While I always have been 
a dedicated and driven researcher in geology, I was also lucky to have been 
able to develop a few other things besides, not related to my main 
activities. POV-Ray is one of them.

>
> So which one is it? Either you retired young (won the lottery perhaps?)
> or you retired and still young (won the biological lottery?)

Well, the first one comes closest. A combination of early retirement 
following institutions fusion and reorganizations. I didn't complain. I had 
some health problems at the time and as the conditions were very acceptable, 
it was the dreamed of opportunity to switch to other occupations, while 
still remaining interested (and mildly involved) in geology.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

On Thu,  3 Jul 2008 11:15:33 EDT
"milco2006" <mil### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:

> > Thanks very much for that Stephen, much appreciated. The 20/20/20
> > system is something that will probably be implemented in time for the
> > next voting,
> 
> I have to say that adding a bonus of 20 to everyone who votes seems a
> little strange as the only reason I did not vote (as discussed in
> previous thread here) is that I could not, thus those who vote gain a
> good boost by getting 20 extra points for each section for voting.
> Surely it would be more logical to add their average score to their
> overall to make up the difference.

And in a previous message, I found: (Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:49:50 +0100)

> If you enter the next round,
> you will get rating and commenting privileges. It's designed to keep
> members interested and possibly entering, and, as we all know, feedback
> on any given image is always good too. :)

So, effectively a first entry would receive 20/20/20 points less than
one from an established (and voting) member? Maybe we should give an
initial submission 20/20/20 for free to equalize the field?

Conceptually I don't understand how voting could improve the artistic
value of a submission (or concept, tech value, for that matter)... Mixing
apples and oranges? (of course I understand the need for voter
incentive, but is this the right way?)

Anyway, I would suggest that having a completely separate site for these
competitions does no good to increasing the exposure of the competition
(or raytracing in general). Though the work of St. is surely appreciated,
wouldn't being a part of something more popular boost things a little?
(maybe - just a suggestion - something like deviantart.com?) It would
solve things like 20/20/20 - participants should be excluded from
voting.  The votes should come from the general public (IMHO).

It would also help with promoting TC-RTC - put 'raytracing competition'
in Google, and the initial 5 pages of links, none points to TC-RTC.

Please take these (radical?) ideas as suggestions, not criticism. I don't
want to start a flame war...

John

Post a reply to this message

"John Coppens" <joh### [at] johncoppenscom> wrote in message 
news:200### [at] johncoppenscom...
> On Thu,  3 Jul 2008 11:15:33 EDT
> "milco2006" <mil### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
>
>> > Thanks very much for that Stephen, much appreciated. The 20/20/20
>> > system is something that will probably be implemented in time for the
>> > next voting,
>>
>> I have to say that adding a bonus of 20 to everyone who votes seems a
>> little strange as the only reason I did not vote (as discussed in
>> previous thread here) is that I could not, thus those who vote gain a
>> good boost by getting 20 extra points for each section for voting.
>> Surely it would be more logical to add their average score to their
>> overall to make up the difference.
>
> And in a previous message, I found: (Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:49:50 +0100)
>
>> If you enter the next round,
>> you will get rating and commenting privileges. It's designed to keep
>> members interested and possibly entering, and, as we all know, feedback
>> on any given image is always good too. :)
>
> So, effectively a first entry would receive 20/20/20 points less than
> one from an established (and voting) member? Maybe we should give an
> initial submission 20/20/20 for free to equalize the field?

 Hi John,

   Heh, well, that's the general idea of course. That a score of 20/20/20 is 
given to everyone that can vote. But, I have to admit that I don't like the 
present situation with new-users. I'll look into this.


>
> Conceptually I don't understand how voting could improve the artistic
> value of a submission (or concept, tech value, for that matter)... Mixing
> apples and oranges? (of course I understand the need for voter
> incentive, but is this the right way?)

     Well, one thing I can say is that, with experience, this is one hard 
cooky to crumble. Getting it right is the aim, but that certainly isn't 
easy.

        And as for your actual question in your last sentence... Why not? I 
mean, how can anyone force someone to vote otherwise? Picture this scenario: 
We have a topic that sounds fantastic to a lot of people - they all 
participate - but *no-one* votes/rates/comments - no-one.

     Who wins? What do I put on the front page for the supposed winner(s)?


>
> Anyway, I would suggest that having a completely separate site for these
> competitions does no good to increasing the exposure of the competition
> (or raytracing in general).


  Not quite sure what you mean with this...



> Though the work of St. is surely appreciated,


     Thank you. I'm only trying to get back what we all miss.



> wouldn't being a part of something more popular boost things a little?
> (maybe - just a suggestion - something like deviantart.com?) It would
> solve things like 20/20/20 - participants should be excluded from
> voting.  The votes should come from the general public (IMHO).

      Well, don't forget that this comp., (TINA CHeP), is supposed to be in 
keeping with the IRTC as a 'stand-in' project whilst it was on hiatus. And, 
as we all know, the IRTC is being re-established - which is good, and I wish 
the team well. I'll be the first in the queue to participate, that's for 
sure. ;)

    But, the TC-RTC comp. will always be around even if it is a backup.



> > It would also help with promoting TC-RTC - put 'raytracing competition'
> in Google, and the initial 5 pages of links, none points to TC-RTC.

    Yep, because I simply haven't promoted it yet to any search engine. When 
I feel the time is right, I will, and I have the experience with that side 
of things. I don't want, and won't have, egg on my face to the world. Can 
you understand that?


>
> Please take these (radical?) ideas as suggestions, not criticism. I don't
> want to start a flame war...

   No flame war here John. I really appreciate your thoughts and idea's. 
Keep them coming.

   Oh, and btw, yes, you can enter as many times as you want in all 
categories. (Sorry I didn't get back to you).

      ~Steve~


>
> John

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:51:03 +0100
"St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote:

> > Conceptually I don't understand how voting could improve the artistic
> > value of a submission (or concept, tech value, for that matter)...
> > Mixing apples and oranges? (of course I understand the need for voter
> > incentive, but is this the right way?)
> 
>      Well, one thing I can say is that, with experience, this is one
> hard cooky to crumble. Getting it right is the aim, but that certainly
> isn't easy.
> 
>      Who wins? What do I put on the front page for the supposed winner
> (s)?

That's why major exposure is essential (see below). There are many
popular photo sites that have a rating system in place.

> > Anyway, I would suggest that having a completely separate site for
> > these competitions does no good to increasing the exposure of the
> > competition (or raytracing in general).
> 
>   Not quite sure what you mean with this...

This is related to the 'popularity' issue of Google. An isolated site
doesn't rate, until links to that site are appearing on the 'net. Then
the site rises in google's opinion. Presenting it through the google
interface doesn't do much - in fact, I doubt it does anything,
particularly with google. At the beginning, if I remember well, they
didn't even have that page. They always declared that it isn't up to the
page owner to get rating.

TC needs links to it, and a big hand can be had if the images appear on
a large site. Ever considered presenting them with the new Google picture
feature?

Another issue with lack of publicity is that I suspect that these
discussion lists on aren't as visible (~ popular) as 'normal' forums on
the 'net. And, even though some of the discussion subjects are found on
the copy at the povray.org site, there is no clear indication on those
pages how to get to the list itself and participate.

Newbies have little idea of the existence of 'news' lists.

> > wouldn't being a part of something more popular boost things a little?
> > (maybe - just a suggestion - something like deviantart.com?) It would
> > solve things like 20/20/20 - participants should be excluded from
> > voting.  The votes should come from the general public (IMHO).
> 
>       Well, don't forget that this comp., (TINA CHeP), is supposed to
> be in keeping with the IRTC as a 'stand-in' project whilst it was on
> hiatus. And, as we all know, the IRTC is being re-established - which
> is good, and I wish the team well. I'll be the first in the queue to
> participate, that's for sure. ;)
> 
>     But, the TC-RTC comp. will always be around even if it is a backup.

Ok... I've offered my help to get the IRTC on-line again too - you might
have noticed that on the other list.

> > in Google, and the initial 5 pages of links, none points to TC-RTC.
> 
>     Yep, because I simply haven't promoted it yet to any search engine.
> When I feel the time is right, I will, and I have the experience with
> that side of things. I don't want, and won't have, egg on my face to
> the world. Can you understand that?

Ok... But remaining with the poultry example - you can't have many
participants (and voters) if you don't publicize... Chicken and egg
problem.

> > Please take these (radical?) ideas as suggestions, not criticism. I
> > don't want to start a flame war...
> 
>    No flame war here John. I really appreciate your thoughts and
> idea's. Keep them coming.
> 
>    Oh, and btw, yes, you can enter as many times as you want in all 
> categories. (Sorry I didn't get back to you).
> 
>       ~Steve~

Great - thanks!

May I suggest adding the closing date for the active competition on the
page... 'July 2008' doesn't state the closing date (which, if I'm correct
is 15th of August). I'm somewhat of a fanatic on the dating subject - I
have to be. My students have a very inventive mind on how to interpret my
dates ;-)

John

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:51:03 +0100, "St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote:

>
>   Heh, well, that's the general idea of course. That a score of 20/20/20 is 
>given to everyone that can vote. But, I have to admit that I don't like the 
>present situation with new-users. I'll look into this.

I think that I need to give an apology to the people that did not vote. I find
that after submitting an entry to the animation contest that I cannot vote. :(

PS Steve I'll get back to you as soon as… when I work out how to meet up.
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message