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From: Jim Charter
Subject: Re: Before and After and new website
Date: 8 May 2007 19:05:45
Message: <46410249$1@news.povray.org>
William Tracy wrote:

> 
> It can create realistic shadows, reflections, and global 
> illumination.
> 

These are light effects not photo effects.  You do not need a photograph 
to perceive shadows, reflections and global illumination.

Meanwhile, these and other phenomena as recorded by a camera are still 
only a partial "realism"  A photo is just a particular recording of 
reality, a partial slice if you will.

It is quite valid to both reject photolike effects as the "gold 
standard" for realism and at the same time utilize the tools provided in 
a raytracer to create a personal and alternative sense of what's real.


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From: Bill Pragnell
Subject: Re: Before and After and new website
Date: 9 May 2007 06:55:01
Message: <web.4641a7fb62a9bf11731f01d10@news.povray.org>
Jim Charter <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote:
> These are light effects not photo effects.  You do not need a photograph
> to perceive shadows, reflections and global illumination.
>
> Meanwhile, these and other phenomena as recorded by a camera are still
> only a partial "realism"  A photo is just a particular recording of
> reality, a partial slice if you will.

Quite. Real 'photorealism' should address the imperfections of the camera
such as barrel distortion, chromatic aberration, over/under exposure, lens
flare, colour bleeding, motion blur, field of view and even the location of
the photographer. I am reminded of Tek's incredible IRTC entry last year
with the fire on the beach.

But there's plenty of amazing things one can do with a raytracer that aren't
possible with a camera. If I could take a picture of it, I don't need to
ray-trace it :-)

Bill


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From: Stephen
Subject: Re: Before and After and new website
Date: 9 May 2007 10:15:01
Message: <web.4641d70f62a9bf11726bd13c0@news.povray.org>
William Tracy <wtr### [at] calpolyedu> wrote:

> However, let me argue that case for a moment. Why would you use
> raytracing if you're not after photorealism?

For me it is laziness. I found PovRay when it was mentioned in the Fractint
documentation. Then I found these newsgroups and the good people here made
me stay. I would probably be better off with a scanline renderer but I like
the company.


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From: Shay
Subject: Entry Comments
Date: 9 May 2007 11:23:51
Message: <4641e787$1@news.povray.org>
General:
I'm guessing topic is a hangup for people, because several recent posts
to p.b.i. are more visually exciting than most of the images here.
Artists who get excited about their subjects *find* a way to make great
looking images. Search the p.b.i. group for non-photoreal images from
Alex Kluchikov or Veijo Vilva for examples of this.



"But which came first?" by David Lewis
A chain-smoking hen contemplates the nature of her existence. The models
and textures are crude (straws look like cigarettes to me), though you
did nail the expression on the chicken's face. The premise does work,
but it's a very tired premise. Maybe I just have no appreciation for the
classics?

"Mild nudity" by Bill Pragnell
I guess the "retro 90s" impression I had of your last entry might very
well have been intentional, because this is a nice looking render. Boring.

"The Passing Away" by Malcolm Findlay
You use some lyrical language in your topic description. This of course
helps get people to pay attention to what you have to say. Pictures are
no different. This topic may resonate with you, but artists have used
the topic ..well... to death. A LOT of lyricism would be necessary to
draw attention to your rendering of such an overused topic.

"yarsocp" by Tek
The most photo-realistic image and best looking marble I recall having
seen from POV-Ray.

"Aging" by William Tracy
The few things in the image are modeled and rendered well. Attractive
and not boring. There is something to be said for a presentation that
doesn't even try to be dramatic. Or, given your topic description, tries
and fails so miserably that the effort isn't even evident (a small
joke). I would suggest searching the p.b.images group for Jim Charter's
shoe and African mask studies.

"First cup" by Mike C
A good amount of details. As others have said, not especially visually
stimulating, but not boring either. The scene definitely does what it
was meant to do.

"Reganomics" by Brian Price
I don't know if it's the scene itself of that it's set in the 80s, but
the (as Tek put it) "naive CG" look works for the image on the right.
For that matter, it doesn't really fail for the image on the left. This
gets your point across, but it's a common political statement and put
very bluntly.

"A Time of Change" by Thomas de Groot
The bad isn't nearly as bad as the good is good, but it's a shame the
good has to share the picture with the less stellar elements. Nice
storytelling and a nice story. You have established identities for the
plane checker and "conformist", even after so few appearances.

"This to that" by Steve Paget
Can't help it. I'm a lot more interested in seeing what's in the photo
of your real workshop than in seeing the render. Nice models, though. A
diamond in the semi-rough? Still waiting for the appearance of your
bizarre ideas like Slotty into the Challenge.

 -Shay


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From: William Tracy
Subject: Re: Before and After and new website
Date: 9 May 2007 15:14:55
Message: <46421daf@news.povray.org>
Okay, you guys win. :-)

-- 
William Tracy
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You know you've been raytracing too long when you're quite happy to let 
people think you're on a mission to enlighten the world - in other 
words; you've stopped trying to explain what "global illumination" is.
Alex McLeod a.k.a. Giant Robot Messiah


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From: St 
Subject: Re: Entry Comments
Date: 9 May 2007 16:58:01
Message: <464235d9$1@news.povray.org>
"Shay" <shay@s.s> wrote in message news:4641e787$1@news.povray.org...


> Can't help it. I'm a lot more interested in seeing what's in the photo
> of your real workshop than in seeing the render.

  Yeah, well, I kind of knew that...   ;)


Nice models, though. A
> diamond in the semi-rough?

   Full-rough, actually. Although, I would have to confess that getting as 
many 'near-complete' octahedrons as this, would be almost impossible. I have 
four rough diamonds with me now, and only one is based on an octahedron, but 
with many flaws along some edges, giving it a more rounder appearance on 
some corners. I tried this in the image, but I didn't try enough.


Still waiting for the appearance of your
> bizarre ideas like Slotty into the Challenge.

    Bizarre idea's?? Moi?? You've seen Slotty then. :)  That was a quick and 
dirty sphere, indeed! I should return to it, it was fun to do.

    BUT, if you meant for me to introduce more challenges in the TC-RTC, 
then yes, this is planned. At the moment, I just want to take it steady and 
see how it goes with what's happening now.

    ~Steve~


>
> -Shay


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From: Shay
Subject: Re: Entry Comments
Date: 9 May 2007 21:18:44
Message: <464272f4$1@news.povray.org>
St. wrote:

>     Bizarre idea's?? Moi?? You've seen Slotty then. :)

You asked in my "...geeks only?" thread in p.b.i. if I had seen your
cgsphere stuff. I took a look and eventually replied, but it was after I
had been away at work, so you may not have seen the reply.


>     BUT, if you meant for me to introduce more challenges in the TC-RTC, 
> then yes, this is planned.

I was talking about crazy images.

As far as the TC-RTC goes, everything looks great. I was past time for
someone interested (and accessible!) to take the reins. Run with it, man!

 -Shay


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From: Tek
Subject: Re: Before and After and new website
Date: 9 May 2007 22:13:33
Message: <46427fcd@news.povray.org>
Something in this discussion just reminded me of a great example of 
non-photoreal CG. Have you guys seen Pocoyo?
http://www.pocoyo.com/

They've got radiosity that looks better than almost anything and yet they 
have no pretense of photorealism. Very cool stuff. Also Stephen Fry doing 
voice over! :)

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

"William Tracy" <wtr### [at] calpolyedu> wrote in message 
news:46421daf@news.povray.org...
> Okay, you guys win. :-)
>
> -- 
> William Tracy
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
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> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> |w|t|r|a|c|y|@|c|a|l|p|o|l|y|.|e|d|u|
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> You know you've been raytracing too long when you're quite happy to let 
> people think you're on a mission to enlighten the world - in other words; 
> you've stopped trying to explain what "global illumination" is.
> Alex McLeod a.k.a. Giant Robot Messiah


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From: Shay
Subject: Re: Before and After and new website
Date: 10 May 2007 00:09:37
Message: <46429b01@news.povray.org>
Tek wrote:
> A Type of Typewriter - Shay
> <snip> the characters making up the picture seem to be completely random.

FWIW, this is not the case. Letter selection and orientation are not
random and are important to the appearance of the image.

 -Shay


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From: Thomas de Groot
Subject: Re: Entry Comments
Date: 10 May 2007 04:49:53
Message: <4642dcb1@news.povray.org>
"Shay" <shay@s.s> schreef in bericht news:4641e787$1@news.povray.org...
> General:
> I'm guessing topic is a hangup for people, because several recent posts
> to p.b.i. are more visually exciting than most of the images here.
> Artists who get excited about their subjects *find* a way to make great
> looking images. Search the p.b.i. group for non-photoreal images from
> Alex Kluchikov or Veijo Vilva for examples of this.
>
This is an interesting idea on which I feel I have to say something. I said 
somewhere in a much earlier thread about the IRTC that competition topics 
can be stimulating to one's own creativity but can also distract you from 
what you really want to pursue. It's a kind of double-edged sword in my 
view. Once you have decided to try your hand at a topic, it becomes 
unrelenting as it will draw out the best (or the worst) in you. If you are a 
good artist, you will overcome the shortcomings with your creative (and 
technical) talents; if you are an average artist (and I consider myself to 
belong to that category) the danger is that you will more often than not be 
dominated or controlled by the boundaries of your talents. This is not a 
pessimistic view, but I consider it of prime importance to discover my own 
(limited) talents and boundaries, and struggle day after day  to drive those 
boundaries back, at the same time trying to stimulate my creativity into new 
unbounded blossoms, as it were. When I look back at my work over the past 
ten years, I am moderately satisfied with the results.
So, yes. More visually exciting images are certainly on show in p.b.i., but 
as I said, they are not restrained by the necessary boundaries of a topic 
but only by the artist's own talents. And real talents there are!! And Alex 
Kluchikov and Veijo Vilva are most certainly amongst them.

>
> "A Time of Change" by Thomas de Groot
> The bad isn't nearly as bad as the good is good, but it's a shame the
> good has to share the picture with the less stellar elements. Nice
> storytelling and a nice story. You have established identities for the
> plane checker and "conformist", even after so few appearances.
>
I think you have said exactly how I feel myself about thes images.

Thomas


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