Hi guys

    The "Before and After" round is now over and you can view the entries 
here: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/3dextra/

      Thanks to those that took part, it's very much appreciated!

   Ok, here's the new website, it's clean and simple and everything works 
(fingers crossed!). This is now open for the first official TC-RTC Stills 
round of "The Black Robe". Please feel free to create an account and have a 
nosey around. For now, you'll find some sample images where you can try out 
the commenting and rating system, (these will all be deleted at the end of 
the week). Please let me know if you spot anything wrong. At the moment, 
there isn't a FAQ, but this will hopefully be available later, so check 
back.

  If any of you nice povers feel like you want to put a link up on your 
site, then that would also be much appreciated.

   Lastly, again, thank you to the guys that did some testing for us.

     http://www.tc-rtc.co.uk/

         Regards,

          ~Steve~

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Perfect!
I love them!!!

Thomas

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Looks great.  Many thanks. I did notice one tiny issue with the new site.
When viewed full size, images that are too large to fit on the screen at
current resolution do not seem too offer the usual "zoom-in, zoom-out"
function. (This is in Mozilla/Firefox - didn't test Brand X.)  This is
really a fairly trivial issue since one can easily open the image itself in
a new window where the zoom works just fine.  Thanks again to all who have
worked on the project.

Regards,
Mike C.

Post a reply to this message

Very nice.

In my mind, the standout images are "Just a Splash" (mild nudity? More 
like full frontal nudity, but whatever) by Bill Pragnell (love the 
lighting--I just wish that the girl's hair didn't levitate over her 
shoulders in the "after" frame); Tek's YARSOCP (if I hadn't seen the WIP 
images, I would swear that was a photo); and Thomas de Groot's "Time of 
Change" (ooh, recurring characters! I could wish for some more detailed 
textures, but, dang, two complete full-sized detailed scenes? Wow!).

Shay's "A Type of Typewriter" is also *very* nice, although I don't 
quite see the "before and after" them in it. (Like I should talk... :-P)

-- 
William Tracy
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You know you've been raytracing too long when you wake up to find you 
have already coded half your scene file in your sleep.

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I will comment more fully on the images soon however just wanted to drop a
short comment at the mo. Firstly I was amazed upon seeing Tek's image,
truly beautiful raytraced image. A also was astounded by thomas's wonderful
scenes. I really like the concept and the outworking of the concept is done
very well. I enjoyed all the other images although would echo the above
posts comment about not seeing the 'before and after' theme in shay's
picture. I will comment more specifically and such later on.

Generally congrats to all the artists for the wonderful selection of
pictures.

Malcolm

Post a reply to this message

Comments for TC-RTC March/April 2007
“Before & After”

“But which came first?” by David Lewis:
Congratulations on coming up with a fun and creative take on the topic.
Thanks for the info on JPatch; I’ll be checking it out.  IMHO, the image
came out nicely.  Ignore any detracting comments you might get from the
“Photo-realism Police”.  Your chicken has much more character and
personality than any slavishly literal recreation.

“Just a splash” by Bill Pragnell:
Kudos to a fellow “transformative-effects-of–beverages” artist ;-)
I found the lighting interesting, but it did raise a question in my mind: Is
either side of the wall the interior of a structure?  Light (sunlight?)
seems to be coming from one side in “Before” and from the other in “After.”
 You’ve successfully created an intriguing sense of mood in any case.

“The Passing Away” by Malcolm Findlay:
“The BIG After” is a challenging subject which you’ve handled in a very
thoughtful way.  The sense of loss it conveys is moving without being
overdone or melodramatic.  On a technical note, it’s not really clear to me
what’s happening inside of the circular recess at the top of the headstone.

“Yet Another Reflective Sphere on a Checkered Plane” by Tek:
Very nicely done! Self-referential art only works well on certain occasions,
but this is clearly one of those occasions.  Along with demonstrating
impressive technical skills, the image interprets the topic in a manner
that evokes the passage of time in palpable fashion.

“Aging” by William Tracy:
I’m inclined to be much kinder to the image than you were in your
description.  The symbolism is clear and effective.  The complete absence
of clutter in the background helps in this regard.  The slightly
over-the-top style of the glasses keeps the image from being cliché.

“Reganomics” by Brian Price
As one of the folks who got “trickled-down” on, I’m personally very
sympathetic to your interpretation of the topic. Tight symmetry is a
compositional element that should be used cautiously and sparingly, but it
worked well in this particular case.  The vivid color palette is very
appropriate to the “Before” image, but perhaps toning down the colors just
a bit more in the “After” image would enhance the effect that I believe
that you’re going for. Overall, nice work.

“A Time of Change” by Thomas de Groot
Once again, you have demonstrated that you one of the (if not THE) premier
story tellers of our group.  I really wish Poser were a better program so
that its figures might do justice to the excellent work you do by way of
giving your characters life and personality.  As you can tell, I’m still
not a Poser fan, but I truly admire the job you do in transcending its
limitations.  Congratulations on another great entry.

“This to that” by ~Steve~:
OK, Steve, time to ‘fess up... TWO web sites, a job, a life AND this great
image.  Just how many times DID you clone yourself?  Seriously, a really
nice job.

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"Mike the Elder" <zer### [at] wyanorg> wrote in message 
news:web.463741af62a9bf11bbb988450@news.povray.org...
> Looks great.

   Thank you Mike, but just remember that it's in its infancy and there's a 
long way to go yet. For the moment, let's just say I have plans - and those 
plans were being thought of 'way' before December 2006.


Many thanks. I did notice one tiny issue with the new site.
> When viewed full size, images that are too large to fit on the screen at
> current resolution do not seem too offer the usual "zoom-in, zoom-out"
> function. (This is in Mozilla/Firefox - didn't test Brand X.)  This is
> really a fairly trivial issue since one can easily open the image itself 
> in
> a new window where the zoom works just fine.

    Yes, it's the same in IE6. I'm sure this can be corrected.


Thanks again to all who have
> worked on the project.

    No, thank you to the participants. Without them, there is no website.


     ~Steve~


>
> Regards,
> Mike C.
>
>
>

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Hi guys!

Until last week I thought I could participate, but, alas, I had much to do
with RL and another POV project I am working on. My idea was an old house
between modern shiny skyscrapers, the old house in the same manner and in
line my POVLab (TINA Chep round).

I just had a quick look at the entries: good works and congratulations to
entrants!

May I comment though I did not enter this round?

   Friendly

      Bruno

Post a reply to this message

"Bruno Cabasson" <bru### [at] alcatelaleniaspacefr> wrote:
> Hi guys!
....
> May I comment though I did not enter this round?

I can't speak for the other entrants of course, but as for myself, feedback
and constructive criticism are always appreciated. Also, since the original
IRTC accepted comments from entrants and non-entrants alike, I would be very
surprised if there were any objections.

For ~Steve~: Understandably, the new site limits voting to entrants.  Will
the public be permitted to comment?

Best Regards All,
Mike C.

Post a reply to this message

Hey,

Just wanted to say thanks to mike for his comments. Also you mentioned:

> On a technical note, it’s not really clear to me
> what’s happening inside of the circular recess at the top of the headstone.
>

I was aware of this problem before sending the image in and was slightly
annoyed I couldnt seem to sort it out. Basically the idea was to have a
fractal inside the recess. Like on real gravestones there is always some
carved symbol for the regement and so I thought the fractal might do nicely
for the povers regement. I implemented this early on in my work on the
picture and back then the lighting was such that the fractal showed nicely.
However to get the longer shadows and more pleasing lighting it became hard
to see the fractal. In the slight rush of exams and the approaching
deadline I played with it but failed to fix it hence its near invisiblness.
Any suggestions on an easy fix would be appreciated.


Also to Bruno, it is always wonderful to hear comments and thoughts on the
pictures so, despite not entering, please post them.

Malcolm

Post a reply to this message

"milco2006" <mil### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
....
> However to get the longer shadows and more pleasing lighting it became hard
> to see the fractal. In the slight rush of exams and the approaching
> deadline I played with it but failed to fix it hence its near invisiblness.
> Any suggestions on an easy fix would be appreciated.

This is probably considered "cheating" by simulation purists, but one handy
technique for bringing out details is to use a “doctored” version of the
texture for the object in question, in this case the fractal, in which the
ambient component of the finish is turned down really low and the diffuse
component is turned up high.  It also usually helps to use only the amount
of reflection that is necessary and no more.  Additionally, if phong is
used, avoid low phong_size values, which can contribute to the “white out”
effect.  I hope this helps.

Regards,
-Mike C.

Post a reply to this message

I just wanted to chime in and say that the new site design is great. I 
really like where this is going. :-)

-- 
William Tracy
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You know you've been raytracing too long when you concentrate so hard on 
the effects watching "Toy Story" that you honestly don't have a clue as 
to what the story was about.
Taps a.k.a. Tapio Vocadlo

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> May I comment though I did not enter this round?

I can't imagine why not. :-)

-- 
William Tracy
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You know you've been raytracing too long when you see the movie credits 
going by and instead of seeing Lenses by Panaflex it always seems to say 
Lens Effects by Chris Colefax.
Ken Tyler

Post a reply to this message

Well done everybody, cracking entries. I especially like Thomas's images,
which can only be described as epic! Mike's coffee cup made me chortle too.
More detailed comments will be forthcoming soon...

Bill

Post a reply to this message

[I pressed the Send button before having finished, so here it is again, 
complete now]

For a serious lack of time I couldn't comment on the previous, TinaChep 
round, so I
want to be sure to comment on the Before and After!!

"But which came first?" by David Lewis
Of course, how obvious :-) and yet, here is a refreshing version of this
philosophical theme. It is also appropriate that this image be the first one
of the round. I certainly like the way in which the diffrent elements have
been worked out. The hen in particular has personality and looks at the
world in a totally perplexed and embarrassed way as if she were sorry to
have generated such a complex question. In terms of model, she is far
superior to those from e.g. Chicken Run.
The fence too is excellent. A reminder to everybody to study seriously Jaime
Vives Piqueres work!! The only thing I find a little bit distracting, is the
straw which imho could be a tiny bit mor irregular in shape. But that is
really nitpicking (just to have to make a criticism :-)  )

"Mild nudity" by Bill Pragnell
It is a public secret that Bill generates poetical, dreamlike scenes from
very few, simple elements. I certainly admire him for that and wish I could
do the same as I have to constantly fight against my tendency of cluttering
up my scenes. So, yes, I am very much attracted to this pair of images,
which immediately generate a number of questions about the environment (a
building, obviously, with an imprecise function, but who cares?), the girl
(obviously in perfect ease and in her own domain, in the way she carries her
nudity carelessly and yet self-consciously), the bottle of wine (something
to celebrate perhaps? Or just the simple pleasure of enjoying a drink?), the
contrast between daylight and artificial light, together with the emptying
of the bottle, subtly marking the passage of time, and the irreversibility
of the arrow of that same Time.
Technically, I admire the careful building blocks and their subtle texture.
Aiko is Aiko of course and an excellent model. The slight anime aspect of
the girl works well in this scene although in others it might become
distracting.

"The passing away" by Malcolm Findlay
Not obvious, at first, and then it hits hard. If there is a before and
after, then this is it. No need for different images, it is all there. I
particularly appreciate the reference to the IRTC here, and hope it is not a
subconscious depiction of real life.
The scene has been carefully built, with a severe, unrelenting symmetry,
only broken by the flower and the portrait. I wonder what is there, in the
round medallion?
Yes a slightly disturbing scene, and yet particularly attractive. Well done.

"A type of typewriter" by Shay
I very much wonder what the meaning is of this wonderful and intriguing
image? I imagine that the before is the typewriter itself as a metaphore for
the pre-digital creative process, and sublimated into the after as the
creative process itself. Very clever! I cannot entirely see how the image
was obtained and I am curious to hear more about it. Artistically, I would
say that this image could proudly be exposed in any modern art museum.

"yarsocp" by Tek
What can I say? Tek is a master and I am not joking. He hardly needs to
stress the point by showing a 'make-believe' image of is early attempts!
Nobody will believe him, because already then he was way ahead of everybody!
:-)
So, joking apart (after all), one can only study carefully this scene and
learn the trade.

"Aging" by William Tracy
Maybe it did not work out that well, as William says, but still it is a very
carefully built scene, and difficult to do right, despite of the deceptive
"simplicity". Both glasses and cane are well built. Personally, I do not
really see glasses as youth (perhaps because I only wear glasses since my
'old' age :-) )

"First cup" by Mike C
The difficult start in the morning. I am one of those wretched individuals
who need time ("can't you shut up, please?") to start the day properly :-)
This scene is really expressing the change that a cup of coffee ("strong,
please!") can have. Interestingly, Mike has thought about changing the
position of the cup (and only the cup), before and after, and through that
slight change, the whole, deeply felt satisfaction of the invisible drinker
becomes visible, almost more so than through the lifting up of the morning
fogs. And one should not forget the focus on that coffee cup in the before
scene, the whole hypnotic attraction for the black beverage. So, maybe, that
attraction is shifting towards the coffee machine in the after scene? Who
knows?
I like the way in which the environment has been built, effectively, from
simple, well-recognizable objects, immediately setting the stage, without
fuzz. Perhaps... no. I wanted to add some bread crumbs or other things, but
it would distract from the essential.

"Reganomics" by Brian Price
In every sense the societal changes are well-expressed in this composite
scene. It is enhanced by the rigorous symmetry of the scene, even in the
place of the cars (note the 'repairs' on the righthand one!). Everything has
become more dismal. The lots have become smaller, the colors duller, even
the light has lost its power. I think it is very well done. I would only
suggest a bit more textural detail in the road at left perhaps, and a little
lighter at right? Just because they occupy a large and essential part of the
image. Nitpicking really.

"This to that" by Steve Paget
I don't know how you do this, Steve! Still finding time to make such a 
careful and detailed scene? There is that wonderful sense of being seated in 
front of the instruments of the trade, and thinking about what one is going 
to make this time, looking alternatively at the details, choosing, 
discarding... It is just the hand that is going to start the creative 
process that is missing, but its presence is felt very strongly.
Textures are really good, like always, the wood, but especially the metals, 
tarnished or not. The only thing that distracts me a bit is the background 
that is a bit too 'noisy' for my taste. But that is nitpicking again...



Thomas

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"William Tracy" <wtr### [at] calpolyedu> schreef in bericht 
news:46379854$1@news.povray.org...
> Very nice.
>
> In my mind, the standout images are "Just a Splash" (mild nudity? More 
> like full frontal nudity, but whatever) by Bill Pragnell (love the 
> lighting--I just wish that the girl's hair didn't levitate over her 
> shoulders in the "after" frame);
Ah yes! the hair! I forgot that in 'my' comments, below  :-)

and Thomas de Groot's "Time of
> Change" (ooh, recurring characters! I could wish for some more detailed 
> textures, but, dang, two complete full-sized detailed scenes? Wow!).
Thank you indeed. I agree about the textures. I basically used Poser's, with 
little editing, except for the hair that needed serious work (not all 
entirely successful)

Thomas

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"Mike the Elder" <zer### [at] wyanorg> schreef in bericht 
news:web.463741af62a9bf11bbb988450@news.povray.org...
> Looks great.  Many thanks. I did notice one tiny issue with the new site.
> When viewed full size, images that are too large to fit on the screen at
> current resolution do not seem too offer the usual "zoom-in, zoom-out"
> function. (This is in Mozilla/Firefox - didn't test Brand X.)  This is
> really a fairly trivial issue since one can easily open the image itself 
> in
> a new window where the zoom works just fine.  Thanks again to all who have
> worked on the project.
>

the zoom-in, zoom-out do appear in IE7 though.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Bruno Cabasson" <bru### [at] alcatelaleniaspacefr> schreef in bericht 
news:web.46383f2662a9bf11f5fba6ef0@news.povray.org...
>
> May I comment though I did not enter this round?
>

of course you can!! Highly appreciated, even!

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Bill Pragnell" <bil### [at] hotmailcom> schreef in bericht 
news:web.4638fca262a9bf11f08a9dec0@news.povray.org...
> Well done everybody, cracking entries. I especially like Thomas's images,
> which can only be described as epic! Mike's coffee cup made me chortle 
> too.
> More detailed comments will be forthcoming soon...
>

<grin>
thank you indeed, Bill!

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Mike the Elder" <zer### [at] wyanorg> schreef in bericht 
news:web.4637b20762a9bf117fdcaa5f0@news.povray.org...
> Comments for TC-RTC March/April 2007
> "Before & After"
>
>
> "A Time of Change" by Thomas de Groot
> Once again, you have demonstrated that you one of the (if not THE) premier
> story tellers of our group.  I really wish Poser were a better program so
> that its figures might do justice to the excellent work you do by way of
> giving your characters life and personality.  As you can tell, I'm still
> not a Poser fan, but I truly admire the job you do in transcending its
> limitations.  Congratulations on another great entry.
>

oh, hum... <grin>  thank you indeed, Mike! I like stories indeed, and this 
one turned out pretty well I believe.
I agree about Poser, but I must say that the program is becoming better (I 
think) especially where skin textures are concerned. There is work to do on 
the hair, especially on the strand-based ones which do not export properly 
to Poseray/Pov-Ray, although FlyerX has started working on that I think. I 
need to experiment a lot more with Poser yet before I can say that I 
'dominate' the program. Clothing is the present challenge I am tackling, as 
this is one of the poorest issues of Poser. Most clothing is really not 
suitable for an average scene. It seems that the Poser world (and Daz world 
even more so) is only partying and living in the Game Zone. That is not my 
cup of tea.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Mike the Elder" <zer### [at] wyanorg> schreef in bericht 
news:web.46388e4662a9bf119cf0aa370@news.povray.org...
>
> This is probably considered "cheating" by simulation purists, but one 
> handy
> technique for bringing out details is to use a "doctored" version of the
> texture for the object in question, in this case the fractal, in which the
> ambient component of the finish is turned down really low and the diffuse
> component is turned up high.  It also usually helps to use only the amount
> of reflection that is necessary and no more.  Additionally, if phong is
> used, avoid low phong_size values, which can contribute to the "white out"
> effect.  I hope this helps.
>

maybe the use of a light_group may help here?

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

Thomas de Groot wrote:


> "A type of typewriter" by Shay
> I very much wonder what the meaning is of this wonderful and intriguing
> image? I imagine that the before is the typewriter itself as a metaphore for
> the pre-digital creative process, and sublimated into the after as the
> creative process itself. Very clever! I cannot entirely see how the image
> was obtained and I am curious to hear more about it. Artistically, I would
> say that this image could proudly be exposed in any modern art museum.
> 

Nicely put.  For me this image is nothing short of a brain punch. I feel 
like you've at least offered me a stool to sit on after I pick myself up 
off the mat and try and think about it some more.

In an earlier thread, Shay threw down a challenge to himself:
to produce...
"an image that is on topic yet still relevant
outside of the competition."
and...
one that 'will make people think, "You know, it's not just the
kiddie pool over there, those POV-Ray guys have something interesting or
high quality to offer."'

He has done that.  Another idea he advanced was his refocused desire to 
understand when comes the point of diminishing returns in his 
entry-creating process, and act apon it.  He has answered that desire 
also.

This work challenges us conceptually, as Shay's works always do, but 
this time he has left the door open and allows us to make some easier 
connections between the image and the underlying idea.  That was not 
always so in the past.  But there are still loose ends,... still bits of 
this to ponder. This appears like a photo of a typewriter keyboard, yet 
I cannot think of a typewriter that actually looks like this.

The work also challenges us stylistically.  I had always viewed ascii 
art as a stylization based in reduction of means.  I had missed its 
inherent potential to reveal process.  But as you have pointed out, this 
is exactly what Shay has used it to do.  The result is stylistically 
sophisticated and visually delightful.  And I agree, the interplay 
between stylistic improvisation and conceptual morphing is as tightly 
drawn as in many a high-brow, museum work of art.  I love how as the 
keys file off in linear perspective, they blur into textual "noise." 
Just wonderful.

All the usual tricks are there.  The "self-reference" of a keyboard 
depicted with keystrokes, strokes of "literal" typeface, but rasterized 
into a 3d photo illusion, (the traditional objective of raytracing.) The 
illusion is obtained primarily through color, not tone, (try throwing 
this picture into an image editor and desaturating it.)  The color is 
the result of a mix. Each letter is a "primary" from the rgb palette, 
"literal" in a sense. These primaries are then mixed through overtyping 
via the raytracer. The derived color leads to a photo-like illusion, yet 
the usual way that a raytracer modulates color to produce a 3d illusion 
is bypassed and ignored.

Before and after?  Lots of possibilities here.

Post a reply to this message

Hello,

I apologize for the late comments; I just haven't had
much time lately.

First I would like to thank ~Steve~ for the work it has
taken to continue the contests.  I never had the chance
to participate in the IRTC, so being able to participate
in this contest really made my day :-)


"But which came first?" by David Lewis
This image is great.  The work on the fence is just amazing.
I can't imagine all the work it must have taken to make the
chicken, but I love the chicken.  The lighting really makes
all of it blend together well.  Nice job!


"Just a splash" by Bill Pragnell
I like the concept.  In my opinion, the bricks and the lighting
really make this image.  The lighting in the "after" image really
brings out the details of the glass.  Beautiful entry!  And when
you finish with your brick weathering macro, do share! ;-)


"The Passing Away" by Malcolm Findlay
The first thing that struck me when saw this image was the
name on the headstone.  It says in your text file that you
were trying to convey "the liveliness, beauty that exist before
death which post-death becomes a mere memory and shadow of
these things", but I can't seem to get past my own thoughts of
what has happened to the IRTC.  The ray-traced image for the
picture by the headstone is fantastic.  The grass, the dirt,
the headstones, the wall in the background, the petals for the
flower, all in all it looks like it took a lot of work but
obviously worth it.  Wonderful concept and nice image!


"A Type of Typewriter" by Shay
This is an image I would like as a poster on my wall -
somewhat abstract yet logical.  I don't quite understand how
this was created as I think it's over my head.  But it's
beautiful none the less.  Nice work!


"Yet Another Reflective Sphere on a Checkered Plane" by Tekno Frannansa
Truly inspiring.  I even like the "before" image! ;-)
Not much else comes to mind except that it's a great concept,
and just an incredible image.  Something to study when I get
the time.  Thank you for sharing your work!


"Aging" by William Tracy
I think this image is great just by - but not limited to -
its simplicity and the concept - expressing age through
objects one would own at different periods of time through
life.  Those glasses look difficult to create, but the cane
is just wonderful - the texture, the highlights.  Nice work!


"1st Cup of the Morning" by Michael Chelmecki
If we had the chance to vote in this contest, I would probably
vote for this image.  Not only can I so thoroughly relate
to what this image expresses, but to so eloquently express
that feeling through an image is incredible.  The kitchen
appliances, the other objects, the lighting, the cup -
really nice work!


"A Time of Change (before and after)" by Thomas de Groot
Both before and after images are really impressive.  The
textures on the walls in the "before" image, the houses,
and all the other objects in both scenes are very nice.
I think what impresses me the most - beside the fantastic
work on the objects and textures in these scenes - is your
ability to bring out the human feeling in the models.
Really nice work!


"This to That" by Steve Paget
This is simply amazing work.  I don't even want to think
of the time it would take me to create some of those objects
in Wings.  Even without considering the time constraints
you must have had, I think you did an amazing job on this
image.  Nice concept as well!


So there you have it.  If I failed to mention anything anyone
created here that they especially liked about their work, please
don't take it personally; I'm new to commenting as I'm new to
entering these contests.  And thanks again for giving me the
opportunity to participate.  I had a lot fun.

~Brian A.

Post a reply to this message

"Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> schreef in bericht 
news:463bc92c$1@news.povray.org...
> Thomas de Groot wrote:
>
>
>> "A type of typewriter" by Shay
>> I very much wonder what the meaning is of this wonderful and intriguing
>> image? I imagine that the before is the typewriter itself as a metaphore 
>> for
>> the pre-digital creative process, and sublimated into the after as the
>> creative process itself. Very clever! I cannot entirely see how the image
>> was obtained and I am curious to hear more about it. Artistically, I 
>> would
>> say that this image could proudly be exposed in any modern art museum.
>>
>
> Nicely put.  For me this image is nothing short of a brain punch. I feel 
> like you've at least offered me a stool to sit on after I pick myself up 
> off the mat and try and think about it some more.
>
You are welcome, Jim! Glad to be of help  :-)
Excellent analysis (as always)

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Brian A. Price" <nomail@nomail> wrote:
....
> "1st Cup of the Morning" by Michael Chelmecki
> If we had the chance to vote...

Your comments were so overly generous that I was too embarrassed to repeat
them, but I thank you for them nonetheless.

Regards,
Mike C.

Post a reply to this message

Mike the Elder wrote:
> "Brian A. Price" <nomail@nomail> wrote:
> ....
>> "1st Cup of the Morning" by Michael Chelmecki
>> If we had the chance to vote...
> 
> Your comments were so overly generous that I was too embarrassed to repeat
> them, but I thank you for them nonetheless.
> 
> Regards,
> Mike C.

I was just thinking about this image. (Oh boy, here we go...)

What it really needs is some sort of double vision effect in the before 
panel. Somehow have two cameras slightly apart (about the distance that 
human eyes are apart) and point both at the mug, then overlay the outputs.

I suppose you could do it in POV with some trickery involving 
semi-transparent mirrors?

Anyway, while I'm commenting, that coffee mug is beautiful. :-)

-- 
William Tracy
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You know you've been raytracing too long when other people's Images 
directories contain N00D G1F$ downloaded from the Net. Your Images 
directory contains raytraces that you upload *to* the Net.
Jeff Lee

Post a reply to this message

"Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote in message 
news:4639c954$1@news.povray.org...
> "yarsocp" by Tek
> What can I say? Tek is a master and I am not joking. He hardly needs to
> stress the point by showing a 'make-believe' image of is early attempts!
> Nobody will believe him, because already then he was way ahead of 
> everybody!
> :-)
> So, joking apart (after all), one can only study carefully this scene and
> learn the trade.

Thanks! :-D
And thank you to everyone else who's commented.

Though I do feel obliged to point out it's *just* a sphere on a checkered 
plane. I think I need to challenge myself with a bigger scene, something 
with people. Spheres & checkered planes are evidently not an area that I 
need to work on any more!

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

Post a reply to this message

Ok it's about time I wrote some comments:

But which came first? - David Lewis
I love the expression on the chicken's face! Good modelling on the chicken. 
There's some issues with the textures in the scene, noteably the chicken's 
beak, the low-res wood, and the normal on the feathers which makes them look 
a bit like stone. The lighting is good if it's meant to be night time, the 
black under the fence suggests no light outside, which seems a little odd 
but not "wrong" as such. Anyway it made me laugh which always means I like 
it!

Just a splash - Bill Pragnell
I'm a big fan of surrealism but personally the nudity and background of this 
scene seem completely arbitrary. In my opinion the concept would come across 
better in a more realistic setting. Anyway, regardless of the reason it's 
there, the scene looks nice (well you can't go wrong with a cute naked girl 
really!). I particularly like the isosurface stones. The concept is good, 
though I really didn't get it until I read the title. On the whole it just 
needs a dose of reality such as: clothes, real background (or at least a 
ladder!), spilt drops of wine/stains on the rock, the empty glass & bottle 
being in a slightly different position to the full ones, a blue sky in the 
background on the left (or no yellow one on the second image). Anyway I'm 
probably analysing too much but despite being a very clean & pretty scene, 
it just doesn't quite work for me.

The Passing Away - Malcolm Findlay
Much improved from the WIPs posted on p.b.i. Very nice concept, with 
emotional resonance for anyone who's looking at the 3drtc. Critically I'd 
say the scene looks very flat, which is caused by having mostly flat 
objects, and the light is almost directly behind the camera. Placing the 
light in a more interesting place and having more variety of objects (e.g. 
different shaped grave stones, rounded edges on the stones) would really 
make things look more interesting. Anyway, having seen this image develop 
I'm impressed with the improvement in your pov skills, I look forward to 
your next image!

A Type of Typewriter - Shay
Wierd. Seriously if you do something this strange *please* provide us with 
an explanation of what it is! I *think* what you're doing is a picture of an 
orange & blue typewriter, drawn with ascii-art. Presumably ascii art is the 
"after" and the typewriter is the "before". Though what you've got isn't 
really ascii art in the conventional sense, but I don't mean that as a 
criticism. I think the thing that bugs me about this image is that the 
characters making up the picture seem to be completely random. They're 
letters, but they aren't chosen to best represent the shapes they're 
imitating, or to have some kind of hidden meaning spelt out. Anyway I don't 
find it all that aesthetically pleasing and I'm mostly just confused when I 
look at it. Sorry! :-/

Aging - William Tracy
Ok I slightly spoilt this image for myself by mis-interpretting the glasses 
as being like those worn by Dame Edna Everage, who is hardly a symbol of 
youth! Anyway I get it now. I love the minimalism, I realise that's perhaps 
a stupid thing to love in ray tracing but it really works here. The cane 
looks a bit plastic, but otherwise I have no criticisms of this image! It 
does what it does very nicely.

1st Cup of the Morning - Michael Chelmecki
I know the feeling! Great use of focal blur and I like the unconventional 
composition. The main thing I'd criticise is it has that high ambient-light 
look that a lot of CG images have, which always really annoys me. I think an 
interior scene like this really needs radiosity. On a similar note, the 
light inside the room seems to be so bright we can't see any daylight 
shining through the window blinds. On the positive side, your kitchen has a 
pretty decent quantity of things in it, though it's far cleaner than my 
real-world kitchen. Particularly impressed that you included a half-full 
coffee maker! It's the little details that work. One final thought: try a 
bit of vignetting, particularly on the left image (i.e. make the image 
darker at the corners than in the middle), for the camera-equivalent of 
half-open eyelids.

Reganomics - Brian A. Price
First of all I have to admit I don't really understand the politics or 
economics or whatever that this image represents. So to my mind those 2 
images are backwards from how I normally think of the development of the 
world. Anyway, short of spending time reading up on Reaganomics, I'm just 
gonna assume your concept is better informed than me and comment on the 
technical/artistic side of things! I like the symmetric composition, right 
down to the cars and the height of the distant building. There's really good 
attention to detail, like the way each house has a different paint job, the 
fact there's a stop sign at the factory, the shadow of a tree on the yellow 
building. Though I think it could do with a little more work on the 
materials (e.g. reflective windows, gloss paint, road markings!) and the 
lighting (e.g. lower ambient light should make everything look much less 
cartoony).

A Time Of Change - Thomas de Groot
Wow! I was impressed when I opened the first image, studying it for the many 
signs of time passing, I spent maybe 5 minutes looking at it before 
realising it was the first of 2 images! Individually either one of these 
would be a great illustration of concept, but together they show a really 
well thought out and thoroughly explored idea. By way of constructive 
criticism I'd say this suffers that high-ambient light look of several other 
images in this contest. The shadowed areas are a very flat and grey looking, 
in a scene with a blue sky I'd expect blueish shadows and yellowish light. 
The flatness is very noticeable on the ivy at the top of the wall, where the 
sun hits it it looks really realistic, but in shadow it looks like a flat 
green shape. Anyway enough nit-picking, the shear amount of thought and 
variety of objects in these images makes the rest of us look lazy! Awesome 
work!

This to That - Steve Paget
Interesting interpretation of the topic, very well suited to being a still 
life. The background image really clashes badly with the colours and layout 
of the foreground, which really emphasizes the fact that this image isn't 
real. If that background wasn't visbile in direct comparison to the CG 
objects the scene would look a lot better. Anyway aside from looking too 
clean this scene's pretty realistic IMO. All the objects need to be bumpy 
and less shiny, apart from the metal tools which need to be more shiny. But 
the octahedron pieces of rock, the diamonds, and the pieces of gold look 
very good. For some reason the chunks of gold are a more gold colour than 
the finished cross. Anyway there's a lot of detail in the scene, I hope you 
keep working on it to remove the excessive "perfection" because I think it 
has the potential to be really realistic.

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

Post a reply to this message

"Tek" <tek### [at] evilsuperbraincom> schreef in bericht 
news:463d4743@news.povray.org...
> A Time Of Change - Thomas de Groot
> Wow! I was impressed when I opened the first image, studying it for the 
> many signs of time passing, I spent maybe 5 minutes looking at it before 
> realising it was the first of 2 images! Individually either one of these 
> would be a great illustration of concept, but together they show a really 
> well thought out and thoroughly explored idea. By way of constructive 
> criticism I'd say this suffers that high-ambient light look of several 
> other images in this contest. The shadowed areas are a very flat and grey 
> looking, in a scene with a blue sky I'd expect blueish shadows and 
> yellowish light. The flatness is very noticeable on the ivy at the top of 
> the wall, where the sun hits it it looks really realistic, but in shadow 
> it looks like a flat green shape. Anyway enough nit-picking, the shear 
> amount of thought and variety of objects in these images makes the rest of 
> us look lazy! Awesome work!
>

Thank you indeed, Tek!
I think that most of your comments about the light will be answered when the 
radiosity version of the Before image will become available. That is going 
to take some time.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Tek" <tek### [at] evilsuperbraincom> wrote:

> The Passing Away - Malcolm Findlay
> Much improved from the WIPs posted on p.b.i. Very nice concept, with
> emotional resonance for anyone who's looking at the 3drtc. Critically I'd
> say the scene looks very flat, which is caused by having mostly flat
> objects, and the light is almost directly behind the camera. Placing the
> light in a more interesting place and having more variety of objects (e.g.
> different shaped grave stones, rounded edges on the stones) would really
> make things look more interesting. Anyway, having seen this image develop
> I'm impressed with the improvement in your pov skills, I look forward to
> your next image!


Thanks Tek. Also thanks to you for the advice that led to quite a bit of he
improvement from the WIPs to the finished product. I admit that quite a lot
of the image was about the concept and not the technical detail. To be
honest I have never been to a proper war graveyard so was really working
entirely from photos off google images. And despite being useful when
looking to do technical stuff I like to know more about the subject.
However after having the idea and realising the possibilities I didnt want
to turn back. Hmmm, about that next image ... Black robe is challenging me
as I havent really worked with clothing before so it is all very
experimental for me.

Thanks againfor the comments and help,

Malcolm

Post a reply to this message

Thanks to William Tracy and Tek for the comments.

As it happens, I did briefly consider some sort of double vision effect for
the “before” image, but I was running out of time.  POV-Ray normally
disables any previously specified cameras when a new one is added.  I
haven’t gotten around to researching whether or not there is a way around
this. (If anyone happens to know the answer, the info would be
appreciated.)  Each render of the “before” half with focal blur and fog was
taking about eight hours. Smaller “test” renders only gave a limited sense
of how well a given group of settings was working.  I ended up having time
to run only three versions and having to use the one that came closest to
what I wanted even though I saw much room for improvement.  The lighting on
the “after” image was an attempt to create the antithesis of the “before”
image to the greatest extent possible.  I wanted everything to be even
cleaner and brighter and sharper than in real life.  I knew that I was
sacrificing some photo-realism for the purpose of emphasizing mood, but
given the way folks have responded, I suppose I ought to give some
consideration to the notion that I may have leaned too far in that
direction.

Now is probably as good a time as any to share a few thoughts I have
regarding what seems to be an assumption with respect photo-realism that
often enters into discussion of ray trace images.  I would like to preface
these remarks by stating categorically that I appreciate all constructive
criticism in the helpful spirit in which it is intended and am genuinely
thankful towards those who have given their time and effort in regard.
This being said, I would encourage anyone who does engage in criticism of
ray trace art (or in the making of it) to refrain from assuming that the
highest degree of photo-realism possible is or ought to be every artist’s
goal.  The folks who have worked so hard to develop the capability of the
software to produce ever increasing levels of realism are to be
congratulated for their achievement and thanked for having given artists
new choices and new tools.  Certain artists have creatively used this
capacity for advanced optical realism to produce stunning and sophisticated
works of art.  IMHO, however, it is a mistake to assume categorically that a
more realistic work is inherently superior to one that is less realistic.
My personal preference with respect to my own work is to create images that
are often more “graphic” than photographic in quality.  I happen to find
images composed of geometric shapes with clean edges and “hard” shadows
aesthetically pleasing. (Magritte and de Chirico are among my favorite
painters.)  The power of art lies largely in its potential to create new
worlds to experience rather than simply replicating the existing one.
Given the subjective nature art, that which makes an image more pleasing to
one person is bound to make it less pleasing to another.  There is no single
objectively correct point of view.  Working toward the nth degree of realism
is a choice, not an obligation.

I note that I have gotten a bit long winded here and promise to avoid making
a habit of it.

Again, my profound thanks to all who participate in making ray trace art
work a community enterprise.

Best Regards,
 -Mike C.

Post a reply to this message

"Mike the Elder" <zer### [at] wyanorg> wrote in message 
news:web.463f38ba62a9bf11d44974430@news.povray.org...
> Now is probably as good a time as any to share a few thoughts I have
> regarding what seems to be an assumption with respect photo-realism that
> often enters into discussion of ray trace images. ...

I certainly appreciate that there's no need to go photo-real with an image. 
I'm a big fan of stylised graphics. But in the case of your image I thought 
that you were trying to be realistic. There was no obvious stylistic signs 
beyond those I normally associate with people who haven't got the hang of 
photo realism, such as excessively flat lighting & simple texturing. If this 
was an intentional stylistic decision than that's fine, but I have no 
suggestions how you could improve it!

To my mind stylistic stuff works best when it clearly shows awesome 
technical skills, but clearly pointed in a direction other than reality. For 
example Pixar's The Incredibles, not at all realistic but also bearing no 
resemblance to naive CG. With Pixar you're left in no doubt that they could 
do photorealism if they wanted to!

Anyway I apologise if my presumption that you were attempting photorealism 
caused any offence.

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

Post a reply to this message

Hi Folks, seeing as I was completely rude and didn't comment on the last 
TC entries, I thought that I'd better comment this time around, or I'll be 
sent to the PoV naughty step.   ;)  (Actually, I do have a .txt file half 
finished sitting on my desktop, so I tried).

  Ok, here they are for this round:

   "But Which Came First?" By David Lewis

   When I received this image and opened it, I smiled, and thought; "How 
good is that, kind of in the same style as H.E. Day's 'Midnight on the Farm' 
image", which I also really liked. I think you've done a great job on the uv 
mapping and especially on the fence. I think the lighting and overall colour 
of this image is good, it's pleasing to the eye, and I think it could also 
have done with a bit more straw. Nice image and a good take on the subject.


  "Just A Splash" By Bill Pragnell

     As ever, another nice image from Bill. For some reason that I can't 
work out, this 'place' makes me think that it's *very* high in the sky - 
like a window on an extremely tall tower of a fairytale castle. I really 
like her... eyes, and the poses are good. I think I would have attempted to 
do something about her elbow creases in the 'after' image as they don't 
quite look right to me, (but I think this is inherent of Daz/Poser models).


  "The Passing Away" By Malcolm Findlay

    This image does indeed convey 'Before and After'. I like your technique 
in producing the picture, he does look like a soldier of the Povers 
Regiment. I think your text is probably ok, and maybe I would have moved the 
shadows around a little to stop that illusion of the text being deeper on 
the left-hand side. I don't know, but worth a try.


  "A Type of Typewriter" By Shay

    When I looked at this image, I immediately knew where you were coming 
from Shay, and it wasn't a surprise to see that you've come up with yet 
another good example of your techniques and work. I see the old typewriter 
as the 'before' and "what you can do with text now" as the 'after'. I don't 
know how you do this stuff Shay, but don't stop.


  "Yet Another Reflective Sphere on a Checkered Plane" By Tek

     Ah yes, we've all been there with your 'before' image Tek! :) Not much 
I can say about this as there really isn't much to add, apart from I think I 
would have been tempted to put a camera man in the reflection as someone 
else mentioned. Well executed and very realistic image.


   "Aging" By William Tracy

     Again, not much to say about this image apart from I like its 
simplicity, it kind of reminds of a billboard advertisement for a show 
that's on at the theatre, (and a good advertisement it would make too). The 
modelling is really good and I like the finish on the walking stick.


  "1st Cup of the Morning" By Mike Chelmecki

   Great interpretation of the subject Mike, and yes, I did laugh. It had 
been like that for me that very morning.  :)

  If this image was produced 'hastily', then you did a good job. I think 
you've got the focal blur just right, it really brings the focus of the 
viewer to the most important thing in the morning; coffee. I think I would 
have added a table leg to the left-hand side of the table, but at first, I 
didn't really notice it.


   "Reganomics" By Brian Price

     I was left a little confused about which way you're trying to convey 
the subject. Is it that the nice houses on the left had to be flattened so 
that industry could move in, and therefore, that's depicted in your 'after' 
image? Or is it that "here's a nice clean neighbourhood, and that's the 
dirty industry we have to live with"? I don't know, but if the latter, then 
more grime and dirt would have been good in the 'after' image. The modelling 
is good, and I can understand why you got burned-out on it as a lot of work 
was put into this.


  "A Time of Change" By Thomas de Groot

    Ah, just excellent Thomas! I like both of these. In the 'before' image, 
I like the use of the posters through the archway, the girl running in the 
background, the guys leaning against the wall, the good use of Ivy 
Generator, etc. etc. etc. I like it all, it all works. In the 'after' image, 
I like that these are the same people but now a lot older too. The structure 
is definately what some town might do for that courtyard, and I'm sure I've 
seen similar in RL. Good work once again.


  ~Steve~

Post a reply to this message

As everyone else said, fire away Bruno, comments are good!   :o)

   ~Steve~

Post a reply to this message

"Mike the Elder" <zer### [at] wyanorg> wrote in message 
news:web.4637b20762a9bf117fdcaa5f0@news.povray.org...

> OK, Steve, time to 'fess up... TWO web sites, a job, a life AND this great
> image.  Just how many times DID you clone yourself?  Seriously, a really
> nice job.

     Heh, thank you, but make that FOUR websites, (you should see the BIG 
one!)  :)

      ~Steve~

Post a reply to this message

"Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote in message 
news:4639c954$1@news.povray.org...

> "This to that" by Steve Paget
> I don't know how you do this, Steve! Still finding time to make such a 
> careful and detailed scene? There is that wonderful sense of being seated 
> in front of the instruments of the trade, and thinking about what one is 
> going to make this time, looking alternatively at the details, choosing, 
> discarding... It is just the hand that is going to start the creative 
> process that is missing, but its presence is felt very strongly.
> Textures are really good, like always, the wood, but especially the 
> metals, tarnished or not. The only thing that distracts me a bit is the 
> background that is a bit too 'noisy' for my taste. But that is nitpicking 
> again...

     Thank you Thomas! Yes, I was torn about using that background, I should 
have experimented more. I'm glad that I did this image though, because as 
it's more or less complete, it means I can just play with textures and 
finishes now, (and the background), which should hopefully improve it.

      ~Steve~


> Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Brian A. Price" <nomail@nomail> wrote in message 
news:web.463bf3ad62a9bf114af133620@news.povray.org...

> This is simply amazing work.  I don't even want to think
> of the time it would take me to create some of those objects
> in Wings.  Even without considering the time constraints
> you must have had, I think you did an amazing job on this
> image.  Nice concept as well!

   Thank you Brian! Yes, I'm really getting used to Wings now, and 
everything seems to be getting faster when using it so maybe that's the 
reason I can produce what seems to be like a complex image in a reasonable 
time. As ever, I think I've got to improve on my textures, but I think I'm 
getting there.

  ~Steve~



> ~Brian A.
>
>
>

Post a reply to this message

"Tek" <tek### [at] evilsuperbraincom> wrote in message 
news:463d4743@news.povray.org...

> Interesting interpretation of the topic, very well suited to being a still 
> life. The background image really clashes badly with the colours and 
> layout of the foreground, which really emphasizes the fact that this image 
> isn't real. If that background wasn't visbile in direct comparison to the 
> CG objects the scene would look a lot better.

    I think you're dead right. I was torn about using that background but 
settled for it in the end. Now the scene is set, I'll experiment more with 
it.



Anyway aside from looking too
> clean this scene's pretty realistic IMO. All the objects need to be bumpy 
> and less shiny, apart from the metal tools which need to be more shiny. 
> But the octahedron pieces of rock, the diamonds, and the pieces of gold 
> look very good.

     For the rough diamonds, I used scattering and emitting media which I 
failed to mention in my text file! But it seemed to work ok.


For some reason the chunks of gold are a more gold colour than
> the finished cross.

    Yes, something else I should have explained in my text file! The gold 
grain that you see there is actually what is known as 'fine' gold, ie, pure 
gold, or .999 carat, or a more broader term, 24ct gold. When you see 24ct 
gold, it's really more orangy than when it's been alloyed with other metals 
to make a lesser carat of gold, like 9ct or 18ct, hence the colour 
difference.


Anyway there's a lot of detail in the scene, I hope you
> keep working on it to remove the excessive "perfection" because I think it 
> has the potential to be really realistic.

     Thank you Tek! I will keep on working on this.

     ~Steve~


>
> -- 
> Tek
> http://evilsuperbrain.com
>
>

Post a reply to this message

"Mike the Elder" <zer### [at] wyanorg> wrote:
> Thanks to William Tracy and Tek for the comments.
>

> Now is probably as good a time as any to share a few thoughts I have
> regarding what seems to be an assumption with respect photo-realism
[Snip]

This is my view as well. It might change if I can develop my texture skills
more :-)

Post a reply to this message

"Mike the Elder" <zer### [at] wyanorg> schreef in bericht 
news:web.463f38ba62a9bf11d44974430@news.povray.org...
>
> Now is probably as good a time as any to share a few thoughts I have
> regarding what seems to be an assumption with respect photo-realism that
> often enters into discussion of ray trace images.
>
I agree with your analysis.

> I note that I have gotten a bit long winded here and promise to avoid 
> making
> a habit of it.
>
Never mind!  Please do!!  :-)

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

Mike the Elder wrote:
> Now is probably as good a time as any to share a few thoughts I have
> regarding what seems to be an assumption with respect photo-realism that
> often enters into discussion of ray trace images.

> This being said, I would encourage anyone who does engage in criticism of
> ray trace art (or in the making of it) to refrain from assuming that the
> highest degree of photo-realism possible is or ought to be every artist’s
> goal.

I know that I am guilty of that sort of assumption a lot. :-)

However, let me argue that case for a moment. Why would you use 
raytracing if you're not after photorealism?

There's hundreds of different 3D rendering packages out there that don't 
use raytracing. They typically use DirectX/OpenGL shaders, and with the 
right hardware can work in realtime, giving you *instant* feedback as 
you're working. Even without hardware acceleration, they are still much 
faster and simpler to work with than actual raytracing.

The main advantage of raytracing over other forms of 3D rendering *is* 
photorealism. It can create realistic shadows, reflections, and global 
illumination.

Now, if you just happen to work better with Pov SDL than with a modeler, 
that's fine. (I *love* SDL.) There's some other toys out there for 
people who want to create images in code (http://processing.org/ comes 
to mind), but there's not many of them and they're not as finished as 
Povray.

But if you're going to build something in, say, Wings3D and then export 
it into POV, I'm going to assume that's because you want Povray to do 
something that Wings' built-in renderer can't do. My guess is that 
something is photorealism, but otherwise I'm curious what it would be.

-- 
William Tracy
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You know you've been raytracing too long when you know the average 
number of hairs on a human head.
Quietly Watching

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William Tracy <wtr### [at] calpolyedu> wrote:
....
> However, let me argue that case for a moment. Why would you use
> raytracing if you're not after photorealism?

I, too, love working SDL style.  I particularly enjoy seeing what can be
made from CSG, the whole process of going from idea to mathematical
expression to image. I imagine that it's not too much different than the
enjoyment that some other folks get from building a ship in a bottle.  The
process is at least as important as the product.
....
> The main advantage of raytracing over other forms of 3D rendering *is*
> photorealism. It can create realistic shadows, reflections, and global
> illumination.

The same capabilities that allow for high levels of realism allow for a much
wider selection of creative techniques than the alternative methods.  An
artist can specify more or less of a given optical phenomenon than the
level that would be the most realistic in order to achieve a variety of
effects. To be succinct, the same tools that make possible photo-realism
make possible many other things as well.  Also, for anyone who may be
joining this discussion in the middle, I should like to point out that I
have NEVER argued that photo-realism isn't a valid format for artistic
expression, only against the ASSUMPTION that it is MORE valid than other
forms.

To Tek et al:
Thank you for your concern, but I was not in the least offended, as I fully
realized that all the comments were contributed with the intent of being
helpful and appreciated them as such.  As a matter of fact, I chose to
bring up the issue, which had been on my mind for quite some time, in this
place and time specifically because I saw it as an opportunity to discuss
the matter in the context of a civil discourse with people whom I respect.
I believe that ray tracing is in the process of "coming of age" as a true
art form and that, like any art from, its full potential can best be
realized if ALL of its possibilities are explored.

Best Regards to All,
-Mike C.

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William Tracy wrote:

> 
> It can create realistic shadows, reflections, and global 
> illumination.
> 

These are light effects not photo effects.  You do not need a photograph 
to perceive shadows, reflections and global illumination.

Meanwhile, these and other phenomena as recorded by a camera are still 
only a partial "realism"  A photo is just a particular recording of 
reality, a partial slice if you will.

It is quite valid to both reject photolike effects as the "gold 
standard" for realism and at the same time utilize the tools provided in 
a raytracer to create a personal and alternative sense of what's real.

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Jim Charter <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote:
> These are light effects not photo effects.  You do not need a photograph
> to perceive shadows, reflections and global illumination.
>
> Meanwhile, these and other phenomena as recorded by a camera are still
> only a partial "realism"  A photo is just a particular recording of
> reality, a partial slice if you will.

Quite. Real 'photorealism' should address the imperfections of the camera
such as barrel distortion, chromatic aberration, over/under exposure, lens
flare, colour bleeding, motion blur, field of view and even the location of
the photographer. I am reminded of Tek's incredible IRTC entry last year
with the fire on the beach.

But there's plenty of amazing things one can do with a raytracer that aren't
possible with a camera. If I could take a picture of it, I don't need to
ray-trace it :-)

Bill

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William Tracy <wtr### [at] calpolyedu> wrote:

> However, let me argue that case for a moment. Why would you use
> raytracing if you're not after photorealism?

For me it is laziness. I found PovRay when it was mentioned in the Fractint
documentation. Then I found these newsgroups and the good people here made
me stay. I would probably be better off with a scanline renderer but I like
the company.

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General:
I'm guessing topic is a hangup for people, because several recent posts
to p.b.i. are more visually exciting than most of the images here.
Artists who get excited about their subjects *find* a way to make great
looking images. Search the p.b.i. group for non-photoreal images from
Alex Kluchikov or Veijo Vilva for examples of this.



"But which came first?" by David Lewis
A chain-smoking hen contemplates the nature of her existence. The models
and textures are crude (straws look like cigarettes to me), though you
did nail the expression on the chicken's face. The premise does work,
but it's a very tired premise. Maybe I just have no appreciation for the
classics?

"Mild nudity" by Bill Pragnell
I guess the "retro 90s" impression I had of your last entry might very
well have been intentional, because this is a nice looking render. Boring.

"The Passing Away" by Malcolm Findlay
You use some lyrical language in your topic description. This of course
helps get people to pay attention to what you have to say. Pictures are
no different. This topic may resonate with you, but artists have used
the topic ..well... to death. A LOT of lyricism would be necessary to
draw attention to your rendering of such an overused topic.

"yarsocp" by Tek
The most photo-realistic image and best looking marble I recall having
seen from POV-Ray.

"Aging" by William Tracy
The few things in the image are modeled and rendered well. Attractive
and not boring. There is something to be said for a presentation that
doesn't even try to be dramatic. Or, given your topic description, tries
and fails so miserably that the effort isn't even evident (a small
joke). I would suggest searching the p.b.images group for Jim Charter's
shoe and African mask studies.

"First cup" by Mike C
A good amount of details. As others have said, not especially visually
stimulating, but not boring either. The scene definitely does what it
was meant to do.

"Reganomics" by Brian Price
I don't know if it's the scene itself of that it's set in the 80s, but
the (as Tek put it) "naive CG" look works for the image on the right.
For that matter, it doesn't really fail for the image on the left. This
gets your point across, but it's a common political statement and put
very bluntly.

"A Time of Change" by Thomas de Groot
The bad isn't nearly as bad as the good is good, but it's a shame the
good has to share the picture with the less stellar elements. Nice
storytelling and a nice story. You have established identities for the
plane checker and "conformist", even after so few appearances.

"This to that" by Steve Paget
Can't help it. I'm a lot more interested in seeing what's in the photo
of your real workshop than in seeing the render. Nice models, though. A
diamond in the semi-rough? Still waiting for the appearance of your
bizarre ideas like Slotty into the Challenge.

 -Shay

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Okay, you guys win. :-)

-- 
William Tracy
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You know you've been raytracing too long when you're quite happy to let 
people think you're on a mission to enlighten the world - in other 
words; you've stopped trying to explain what "global illumination" is.
Alex McLeod a.k.a. Giant Robot Messiah

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"Shay" <shay@s.s> wrote in message news:4641e787$1@news.povray.org...


> Can't help it. I'm a lot more interested in seeing what's in the photo
> of your real workshop than in seeing the render.

  Yeah, well, I kind of knew that...   ;)


Nice models, though. A
> diamond in the semi-rough?

   Full-rough, actually. Although, I would have to confess that getting as 
many 'near-complete' octahedrons as this, would be almost impossible. I have 
four rough diamonds with me now, and only one is based on an octahedron, but 
with many flaws along some edges, giving it a more rounder appearance on 
some corners. I tried this in the image, but I didn't try enough.


Still waiting for the appearance of your
> bizarre ideas like Slotty into the Challenge.

    Bizarre idea's?? Moi?? You've seen Slotty then. :)  That was a quick and 
dirty sphere, indeed! I should return to it, it was fun to do.

    BUT, if you meant for me to introduce more challenges in the TC-RTC, 
then yes, this is planned. At the moment, I just want to take it steady and 
see how it goes with what's happening now.

    ~Steve~


>
> -Shay

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St. wrote:

>     Bizarre idea's?? Moi?? You've seen Slotty then. :)

You asked in my "...geeks only?" thread in p.b.i. if I had seen your
cgsphere stuff. I took a look and eventually replied, but it was after I
had been away at work, so you may not have seen the reply.


>     BUT, if you meant for me to introduce more challenges in the TC-RTC, 
> then yes, this is planned.

I was talking about crazy images.

As far as the TC-RTC goes, everything looks great. I was past time for
someone interested (and accessible!) to take the reins. Run with it, man!

 -Shay

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Something in this discussion just reminded me of a great example of 
non-photoreal CG. Have you guys seen Pocoyo?
http://www.pocoyo.com/

They've got radiosity that looks better than almost anything and yet they 
have no pretense of photorealism. Very cool stuff. Also Stephen Fry doing 
voice over! :)

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

"William Tracy" <wtr### [at] calpolyedu> wrote in message 
news:46421daf@news.povray.org...
> Okay, you guys win. :-)
>
> -- 
> William Tracy
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> You know you've been raytracing too long when you're quite happy to let 
> people think you're on a mission to enlighten the world - in other words; 
> you've stopped trying to explain what "global illumination" is.
> Alex McLeod a.k.a. Giant Robot Messiah

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