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From: Bruno Cabasson
Subject: Re: Pseudo IRTC - TINA CHeP Entries
Date: 9 Mar 2007 12:20:00
Message: <web.45f196c7e18621b9f5fba6ef0@news.povray.org>
Verm <pov### [at] thirteeendynucom> wrote:
> St. wrote:
> >   Good morning IRTCers!
> >
> >    Here you can view the entries for the Pseudo IRTC Stills topic - TINA
> > CHeP (This Is Not A CHeckered Plane):
> >
> >      http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/3dextra/
> Many thanks for hosting and organising this.
>
> Finally got a chance to try to comment.
> I was particularly struck by the wide variety of styles of the images.
>
> I think my favourite images were Steve Shelby's mice - you just can't go
> wrong with cute cartoon animals and bad puns, and Bill Pragnell's knot,
> but I liked all of the others too.
> --
> Malcolm's "Evolution of TINA CheP" : I liked the concept and the
> simple(ish) setting works nicely. I'd almost have been tempted to give
> one of the mannequins a spear, and if they could have smoothly
> uncurled/morphed from the sphere... no I like it as it is.
> ---
> Thomas's "Perils of Tina" : Another take on the concept that made me
> grin and some impressively expressive figures. I'm not quite sure what's
> happening between the two central figures but it makes you look again.
> --
> Andrey's "Crash" : Nice "simple" looking image that works very well.
> --
> My (Verm's) tc2
>
> I ran out of time with both the image and the description as I was away
> for then end of Feb and beginning of March.
>
> The scene was composed and designed from a player's point of view
> sitting behind the board locked in an underground vault with someone
> coming in from a tunnel to the left but the composition didn't work.
>
> I asked a colleague's opinion and his response was "well if I was
> photographing that scene...." so I moved the camera half a dozen times
> until we ended up with the scene shown. He's an amateur photographer and
> said he enjoyed the process of "taking pictures without a camera" :-)
>
> I'm glad you liked the concept and amused it worked out nicely from the
> last minute change of viewpoint.
>
> The textures still need work: I think the board needs blurred
> reflections and although I'm pleased I got my procedural brick patterns
> to work they're currently far too clean looking for an old brick vault.
>
> The knight's hiding behind the king. (I made a nice knight but he's a
> totally different style to the other pieces.)
>
> As I said the end result wasn't stunning but I had fun learnt and
> finished my first purely imaginary scene, so thanks again for running
> the round.
> --
> Steve's "Tina entertains..." : Tsk Tsk, you're definately showing her in
> a bad light :- ).
> --
> Mike's "Here's looking at hues, kid" : Nice scene, very nice modelling
> and very on topic.
> --
> Jim's "This is not a checkered plane" : I was intrigued and almost
> frustrated wanting to see through the chequers to the figures :-)
> --
> Malcolm's TC Spheres : retro image with nice ripples.
> --
> Bruno's "Povlab" : obviously far better in the big format in pbi (or
> even in the large format scaled down to avoid the aliasing) and then
> there's so much to look at. One thing ... would refraction have made the
> light sabre case look more glass like? (I know the scene was only just
> finished in time and was very slow to render but I was just wondering...)

Thanks for your comments.

To answer your question: there actually IS refraction in the lightsaber
case, as well as a small amount of bump. They were visible when I modelled
the case in a separate scene (no rad), but almost not visible in the final
scene. It took long to render because of the room media. The 1280*1024
version (no media) takes about 8-10 hours on a Athlon 3000+ depending on
the rad settings.

    Bruno

BTW: I rendered another version, with better lighting (darker out side, more
influenced by inner objects, mainly the 'TINA' neon). Should I dare once
again post it here?


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From: Steve Shelby
Subject: Re: Pseudo IRTC - TINA CHeP Entries
Date: 10 Mar 2007 09:37:56
Message: <45f2c2c4$1@news.povray.org>
I finally have some time to write a few words. I feel kind of like an 
outsider, since I never wrote in during the whole discussion about what to 
do about IRTC, but I was reading with interest the whole time. It's been 
over a year since I last entered, and I wasn't interested this time until 
this new idea was sprouted (TINA CHeP). It allowed me to make something 
simple ( I don't like making complicated scenes, and it seems that the ones 
that win are usually the most complicated). My 2mice entry was just sort of 
a long-term stream of conciousness exercise, and was not intended to have 
anything even slightly serious to say. I appreciate all of your comments 
about it.
This topic left so much room for interpretation, the variety in the 11 
entries is quite amazing. I don't have enough time to write about all of 
them at length, like some of you have.
I really like Andrey's for the way he did the rough-looking painted squares. 
I had to read the txt to find out how it was done. So simple, but so 
effective.
I was immediately struck by Mike C's image there next to mine, using the 
same pun of the plane. It made me laugh.
Bill's Knot is impressive technically, and I love the pun it the title.
Steve's Tina...wow! how do I join the POV Club? The floor and the lighting 
are really cool. Side note: I'm so old, the last time I was in such an 
establishment, pole dancing hadn't been invented yet.
Malcolm, Thomas, Verm, Jim, Bruno, I liked all of your entries, too. I just 
don't have the time to comment on all of them individually.
Steve Shelby
http://www.shelbyvision.com
Vegetarians
kill plants, but cannibals are
humantarians.


"St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote in message news:45e69395$2@news.povray.org...
>  Good morning IRTCers!
>
>   Here you can view the entries for the Pseudo IRTC Stills topic - TINA 
> CHeP (This Is Not A CHeckered Plane):
>
>     http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/3dextra/
>
>    There are no losers in this stand-in round, only winners. (Hey, and 
> that includes me! Cool!)  ;)
>
>     Thanks to those that entered, they are all great images.
>
>       Enjoy!  :o)
>
>      ~Steve~
>
>
>
>


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From: Shay
Subject: Late comments.
Date: 11 Apr 2007 16:05:22
Message: <461d3f82$1@news.povray.org>
Late comments. Started this before I left for work but didn't finish.
Back now, so ...

'This is a knot, checkered, on a plane' by Bill P.:
This was a nice topic for a person interested in knots. Your's is a
thematically simple image with a decent amount of polish. The
presentation with the rippling reflection effect definitely recalls the
"neat-o" feeling we all got with our first look at a ray-traced chrome
sphere. Unfortunately, along with the warmth of familiarity comes the
choking sensation of over-familiarity. Not sure if the retro 90s look is
intentional. Bitter sweet.


Where's the evolution? A neat idea, but the figure does not evolve at
all. This unfortunately does reflect the evolution of most POVers in
that the standards are so low that only a handful bother to spend more
than a few hours putting something together. This is not a comment on
your or any POVers skill, rather a comment on the unwillingness to
invest more time/energy than most do.


I've never tried Poser. The characters are posed very convincingly, but
their distorted arms and details like the low resolution of Tina's
sphere take away a lot from an otherwise very nice image. The story is
very well narrated. I imagine the background character as one who has
passed the plane checker and is now burdened with guilt over her own
conformity.



'HERE'S LOOKING AT HUES, KID' by Michael Chelmecki:
These kinds of themes are tough. There's some cleverness, but no humor
or challenge. There really is nothing to take from this on an emotional
level, so the image must be visually stunning to leave an impression.
Some nice modeling techniques in all three, but I personally took
nothing away from having seen them.

'Tina entertains the boys at the POV Club' by ~Steve~:
After having heard about the Tina Chep topic, my first idea for
interpretation was "this is not a checkered plane (of existence)",
meaning that we are not living in a world where the distinction between
black and white (right and wrong) is clearly delineated.  Not sure if
it's intentional, but your image and description do lend themselves to
this interpretation.


Why the sign? Stream of consciousness, but is this not a non-checkered
plain, "an expanse of land with relatively low relief(Wikipedia)"? I
think with a bit more work on the aesthetics of this unusual plain, this
could be an interesting image.

'This is not a checkered plane' by Jim C.:
Your scene is an example of what I want to do in future rounds of the
new RTC. A nice take on the topic and a quality pic most likely produced
in a reasonable, non-life-stopping amount of time. I want to do as you
have done: take something, put it out there, and participate in what's
going on rather than just trying to bend topics to my personal ends.
Additionally, you've managed a trick for which I cannot promise to
always try; You've made an image that is on topic yet still relevant
outside of the competition.

As far as the picture itself, I can't really tell what elements are "in
phase" with others. I thought it at first to be a group of hunters or
travelers disappearing into history. Transience definitely comes across.


An IRTC entry in the traditional mold. Lots of stuff. Ran out of time
for tweaking, but this is the right track for the kind of unambiguously
quality images that often do and should win contests like these.

 -Shay


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From: Bruno Cabasson
Subject: Re: Late comments.
Date: 11 Apr 2007 17:00:01
Message: <web.461d4bf03e46b5ef6302a0df0@news.povray.org>
Shay <not### [at] notmailcom> wrote:
> Late comments. Started this before I left for work but didn't finish.
> Back now, so ...
>
> .../...
>

> An IRTC entry in the traditional mold. Lots of stuff. Ran out of time
> for tweaking, but this is the right track for the kind of unambiguously
> quality images that often do and should win contests like these.
>
>  -Shay

Thanks! :o)

I took time after the round to tweak the lighting and get a better result.

    Bruno


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From: Jim Charter
Subject: Re: Late comments.
Date: 12 Apr 2007 14:42:57
Message: <461e7db1@news.povray.org>
Shay wrote:
> Late comments. Started this before I left for work but didn't finish.
> Back now, so ...


Late in some sense I guess, but always appreciated.  Considering the 
pictures after the dust has settled and the excitement is over


> 
> 'This is a knot, checkered, on a plane' by Bill P.:
> This was a nice topic for a person interested in knots. Your's is a
> thematically simple image with a decent amount of polish. The
> presentation with the rippling reflection effect definitely recalls the
> "neat-o" feeling we all got with our first look at a ray-traced chrome
> sphere. Unfortunately, along with the warmth of familiarity comes the
> choking sensation of over-familiarity. Not sure if the retro 90s look is
> intentional. Bitter sweet.

Retro 90s already??? :0

> 

> Where's the evolution? A neat idea, but the figure does not evolve at
> all. This unfortunately does reflect the evolution of most POVers in
> that the standards are so low that only a handful bother to spend more
> than a few hours putting something together. This is not a comment on
> your or any POVers skill, rather a comment on the unwillingness to
> invest more time/energy than most do.

Yet it is a nice take on the perpetual problem of depictional means.  On 
any given occasion you are stuck at whatever skill level you have,... 
but you still want to tell the story.


> 

> I've never tried Poser. The characters are posed very convincingly, but
> their distorted arms and details like the low resolution of Tina's
> sphere take away a lot from an otherwise very nice image. The story is
> very well narrated. I imagine the background character as one who has
> passed the plane checker and is now burdened with guilt over her own
> conformity.

LOL, always the maverick, Shay, always the maverick.


> 


> 'HERE'S LOOKING AT HUES, KID' by Michael Chelmecki:
> These kinds of themes are tough. There's some cleverness, but no humor
> or challenge. There really is nothing to take from this on an emotional
> level, so the image must be visually stunning to leave an impression.
> Some nice modeling techniques in all three, but I personally took
> nothing away from having seen them.

Yes, but personally I always allow for the passion-for-craft.  It has 
it's fatuous side, but I wlways give it the nod in the edge.  I guess 
because it has its obsessive-compulsive side too.

> 
> 'Tina entertains the boys at the POV Club' by ~Steve~:
> After having heard about the Tina Chep topic, my first idea for
> interpretation was "this is not a checkered plane (of existence)",
> meaning that we are not living in a world where the distinction between
> black and white (right and wrong) is clearly delineated.  Not sure if
> it's intentional, but your image and description do lend themselves to
> this interpretation.

Yes, it is a simple image that pries at complexities.  One time, while I 
was sitting in my little programmers' suit, (Hugo Boss, a nice liquid 
black-blue, european cut, tapered from the shoulder, pegged cuffs,) in 
my little programmer's chair, in my little programmer's cubicle, on the 
67th floor of the WTC, my project leader, a very prim, proper, 
emmaculately groomed, Korean woman, came up to me and asked me what I 
thought about pornographic videos.  Ummmm...????


> 
> 'This is not a checkered plane' by Jim C.:
> Your scene is an example of what I want to do in future rounds of the
> new RTC. A nice take on the topic and a quality pic most likely produced
> in a reasonable, non-life-stopping amount of time. 

Thanks.  It takes attention not to get sucked in too deep.



> going on rather than just trying to bend topics to my personal ends.

When that is done cynically it rarely works.  You must give yourself up 
to the topic.  That is the truth of the situation.  But the thing is, 
that is lived out by different people in different ways.

> Additionally, you've managed a trick for which I cannot promise to
> always try; You've made an image that is on topic yet still relevant
> outside of the competition.

Thanks again.  I think you have to just take what comes.

> 
> As far as the picture itself, I can't really tell what elements are "in
> phase" with others. 

There are some ambiguous moments but I think they derive from how are 
perception works, you know, the old which line is shorter sort of thing, 
and from certain vagaries, such as how a line in the snow might coincide 
with the edge of a checker etc.

I thought it at first to be a group of hunters or
> travelers disappearing into history. Transience definitely comes across.

That was pretty much it.


> 

> An IRTC entry in the traditional mold. Lots of stuff. Ran out of time
> for tweaking, but this is the right track for the kind of unambiguously
> quality images that often do and should win contests like these.
> 
>  

Yup.


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From: shay
Subject: Re: Late comments.
Date: 12 Apr 2007 16:47:23
Message: <461e9adb$1@news.povray.org>
Jim Charter wrote:

> On any given occasion you are stuck at whatever skill level
> you have,... but you still want to tell the story.

I'm questioning will, not skill. Look back at the IRTC rounds from 1996
when render (thus development) times were Hellish for even simple CG models.

It would delight me if Steve changed the name from RTContest to
RTChallenge. Let this have the spirit of a five mile race. Sure, someone
will win, but even the last person across the finish line will have run
five miles. Five miles isn't THAT much, is it?

> the passion-for-craft.
> It has it's fatuous side,

Uhhhhgh. How *much* *much* time did I spend on that damn pagoda?

> it has its obsessive-compulsive side too.

Uhhhhgh. How *much* *much* time did I spend on that damn pagoda?

>> rather than just trying to bend topics to my personal ends.
> 
> When that is done cynically it rarely works.  You must give yourself
> up to the topic.  That is the truth of the situation.  But the thing
> is, that is lived out by different people in different ways.

I do this sincerely and in good faith. I'm just as reluctant to bore as
I am to be bored, but there is something to be said for playing along,
getting some nice looking renders into the higher rankings, and enjoying
the race.

>> I thought it at first to be a group of hunters or
>> travelers disappearing into history. Transience definitely
>> comes across.
> 
> That was pretty much it.

And "pretty much it" pretty much defines how I'm trying to change my
perspective on RTC entries. I'm sure it occurred to you that you could
have told a similar story in a more comples OR more minimal way, but
this would have presented additional time- and energy-consuming
challenges for diminishing (in the viewer's perspective) returns. Here,
it seems you've allowed the theme to settle into its natural niche.
Doing otherwise might very likely have meant no one would have seen it
at all. Eleven isn't a lot of entries. Just a few fewer and this would
not have been a success.

 -Shay


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From: St 
Subject: Re: Late comments.
Date: 12 Apr 2007 20:07:22
Message: <461ec9ba@news.povray.org>
"shay" <sha### [at] nonenone> wrote in message news:461e9adb$1@news.povray.org...

> It would delight me if Steve changed the name from RTContest to
> RTChallenge. Let this have the spirit of a five mile race. Sure, someone
> will win, but even the last person across the finish line will have run
> five miles. Five miles isn't THAT much, is it?

   Nah, I could do five miles jogging with my son easily enough, but I might 
not be alive at the end of it...  ;)

   I like RT'Challenge' a LOT Shay!

   That's what it will now mean. *Thank you*!

       ~Steve~





> -Shay


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From: shay
Subject: Re: Late comments.
Date: 13 Apr 2007 05:11:31
Message: <461f4943@news.povray.org>
shay wrote:
> And "pretty much it" pretty much defines how I'm trying to change my
> perspective on RTC entries.

Up late after a great night, still working on my 'before and after'
entry, and I want to elaborate on what I said earlier.

When I see a good local band, as I did tonight, my first thought is that
I aught to go home and practice with my guitar afterwards. I practice
often with the hope of becoming at least good enough to compose basic
music for the many songs I write, but, truth is, guitar doesn't come
easily to me and I will likely never be capable of playing anything
extraordinary.

Second thought: "Hey, wait a second! There IS something which does come
easily to me and in which I am VERY practiced." So, I often come home
intending to create something extraordinary in POV-Ray.

And where are all of these extraordinary pictures? Often posted to this
board, but they are only extraordinary in my attachment to them. I
inevitably cross the line of diminishing (to the viewer) return. I
become attached because of the amount of work and energy expended, even
when far less would have pleased everyone but myself just as much. As an
example, if you're anything at all like me in this respect, your Tina
Chep entry would have more significance to you had you modeled the
figures specifically for it, imagining as you did that the height of
each figure or the style of buttons on his jacket contributed in some
way to the overall effect. To the viewer, it doesn't make a bit of
difference.

Mine is a perspective that works for me, but I really want to step away
from that mindset just long enough to contribute something to this new
incarnation of the IRTC. Something which, even if I'm not especially
attached to it, will make people think, "You know, it's not just the
kiddie pool over there, those POV-Ray guys have something interesting or
high quality to offer." I think you've managed that here without going
so deep that you get into nasty things like a hyper-critical (of your
own work at first, then others') frame of mind.

 -Shay


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From: shay
Subject: Re: Late comments.
Date: 13 Apr 2007 05:12:51
Message: <461f4993@news.povray.org>
St. wrote:
>> "shay" <sha### [at] nonenone> wrote in message news:461e9adb$1@news.povray.org...
>> It would delight me if Steve changed the name from RTContest
>> to RTChallenge.
> 
> That's what it will now mean. *Thank you*!

Then I suppose I'm delighted. :)

 -Shay


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From: Thomas de Groot
Subject: Re: Late comments.
Date: 15 Apr 2007 02:37:34
Message: <4621c82e$1@news.povray.org>
Very nicely put, Shay. I mostly feel that way too.

Thomas


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