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Folks,
I've been getting a fair bit of mail about the status of the IRTC. I hope to
have some sort of indication of the direction for you to take within 24 hours
of this post. For now, please just wait.
-- Chris
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"Chris Cason" <del### [at] deletethistoo povrayorg> wrote in
message news:45bf152b$1@news.povray.org...
> Folks,
>
> I've been getting a fair bit of mail about the status of the IRTC. I hope
> to
> have some sort of indication of the direction for you to take within 24
> hours
> of this post. For now, please just wait.
>
> -- Chris
Thanks, Chris. I am sure that we all appreciate your assistance rendered in
your <irony>copious</irony> free time
John
--
"Please refrain from fondling the nymphs and sprites
- it makes them giggly and skittish.
Thank you for your co-operation.
The Management"
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"Chris Cason" <del### [at] deletethistoopovrayorg> wrote in
message news:45bf152b$1@news.povray.org...
> Folks,
>
> I've been getting a fair bit of mail about the status of the IRTC. I hope
to
> have some sort of indication of the direction for you to take within 24
hours
> of this post. For now, please just wait.
>
> -- Chris
Pinch me, am I dreaming........Thank you Chris.......
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As promised, here is my response:
We have not heard from Jesse, which is a worry. The other active IRTC admin
(Chip) was holding off in the hope he would respond, since the tasks of
releasing the rounds are usually done by him.
Chip has agreed that the best course right now is to release the round for
viewing, which will be done within 24 hours. Voting will not be enabled at
this point.
With respect to the direction to take for the future ... I have some
comments regarding this. I will make that shortly in a new thread.
regards,
-- Chris Cason
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So what's the status of the IRTC?
What I expected would happen by this point - now that several months have
passed, and it's abundantly clear that the last IRTC admin is AWOL - is
that Chris would be asking if anyone would be interesting in taking over
the admin role.
I could be wrong, but that doesn't seem to be happening.
The IRTC itself seems to be on permanent hold. The prior contest images and
animations are "available for comment", but none of these comments seem to
have been posted.
The impression I get is that the prior IRTC administration has managed to
alienate a lot of people, including Chris and ex-IRTC administration. The
workings of the IRTC seem to have been done out of sight of the general
public.
Chris has spoken of a "clone" of the IRTC, but it's not clear to me why
someone can't just take over the administration role. The IRTC rules are
laid out, the structure is in place... What's issue?
So what's the plan? Is there going to be some effort made in continuing the
IRTC, or will it be left in permanant limbo?
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David Cuny wrote:
> What I expected would happen by this point - now that several months
Only six weeks have past. I would recommend at least two or three more
months of patience...
Thorsten, POV-Team
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Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> David Cuny wrote:
> > What I expected would happen by this point - now that several months
>
> Only six weeks have past. I would recommend at least two or three more
> months of patience...
>
> Thorsten, POV-Team
Ah! The modern world, everything should be instant :)
Strange behaviour form people who will wait an hour for one line of an image
to render :-)
Stephen
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Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> Only six weeks have past. I would recommend at least two or three more
> months of patience...
>
> Thorsten, POV-Team
Good plan. And as for this global warming thing, another century or so of
complacent inactivity should let us know for sure whether or not there's
really a problem.
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Mike the Elder wrote:
> Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
>
>> Only six weeks have past. I would recommend at least two or three more
>> months of patience...
>>
>> Thorsten, POV-Team
>
> Good plan. And as for this global warming thing, another century or so of
> complacent inactivity should let us know for sure whether or not there's
> really a problem.
Call me overly sensitive, but do i sense a slight hint of sarcasm in
that statement? ;)
In a more serious state of mind, i'm sad to see the IRTC fall into
limbo. It's (was?) a place where you can (could?) send in your
contributions and (quoted from the rules) "don't have to be any good."
When it comes to 3-D, there's not much of that around the web any more.
E.g. i wouldn't dare enter any of my stuff into the galleries of the
Cinema4D forum that i also frequent, simply because i can't compete with
users that do things like character design or architectural
visualisation or movie f/x for a living. IRTC is/was where hobbyists or
after-hour dabblers like me could go and get feedback for their work,
and get a regular challenge to work on, learn and improve.
Then there's YouTube where you simply get lost among millions of dumb
stunts and/or even dumber comments spewed out by spambots, and that's
about it. Then there are all those teams of graphic design students that
build a video as final exam (like all theses SupInfoCom people), or f/x
pros with too much time at hand (e.g. 405-the-movie).
Doesn't leave much space to fit in...
-Markus
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"Mike the Elder" <zer### [at] wyanorg> wrote in message
news:web.45f53a08463ebb8f6d4565230@news.povray.org...
> Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
>
>> Only six weeks have past. I would recommend at least two or three more
>> months of patience...
>>
>> Thorsten, POV-Team
>
> Good plan. And as for this global warming thing, another century or so of
> complacent inactivity should let us know for sure whether or not there's
> really a problem.
Gah, that's the way I see it. I really don't get it. All those years, and
no-one can talk to the guy hosting it.
Or, did Thorsten hint at what's to come?
~Steve~
>
>
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Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> Only six weeks have past. I would recommend at least two or three more
> months of patience...
For what? What will be different in two or three months?
To be honest, when I first read through your reply, I thought you were
kidding, just making fun of the fact that the IRTC has traditionally been
late doing things.
I'm sorry for sounding unkind, but I have real trouble believing I'd get a
response like this if this were something that the POV-Ray group really
cared about.
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David Cuny wrote:
> Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
>
>> Only six weeks have past. I would recommend at least two or three more
>> months of patience...
>
> For what? What will be different in two or three months?
>
> To be honest, when I first read through your reply, I thought you were
> kidding, just making fun of the fact that the IRTC has traditionally been
> late doing things.
>
> I'm sorry for sounding unkind, but I have real trouble believing I'd get a
> response like this if this were something that the POV-Ray group really
> cared about.
>
>
Imagine that IRTC was your project, and something came up in your life
that prevented you from even having internet access. And when you got
back online, you found that other people had taken over your project.
It's not something many people would be comfortable with. Since the IRTC
admin can't be contacted, no one can even ask if they would like someone
to take over for them for a while.
For a stand in competition, check the news://irtc.stills where there is
talk of another website that should keep us busy for the time being.
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"Chris Cason" <del### [at] deletethistoopovrayorg> wrote in
message news:45bf152b$1@news.povray.org...
> Folks,
>
> I've been getting a fair bit of mail about the status of the IRTC. I hope
> to
> have some sort of indication of the direction for you to take within 24
> hours
> of this post. For now, please just wait.
>
> -- Chris
I do find it unfortunate though that the current round can't be evaluated
and completed in the very least. Perhaps with the talk of the new
competition, these entries can be ported to a closed round and given the
attention they deserve for the people that took the time to work on them and
submit.
-tgq
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Sabrina Kilian <ykg### [at] vtedu> wrote:
> Imagine that IRTC was your project, and something came up in your life
> that prevented you from even having internet access. And when you got
> back online, you found that other people had taken over your project.
> It's not something many people would be comfortable with. Since the IRTC
> admin can't be contacted, no one can even ask if they would like someone
> to take over for them for a while.
>
> For a stand in competition, check the news://irtc.stills where there is
> talk of another website that should keep us busy for the time being.
I would put it this way: If you are the IRTC admin and you KNOW you canīt be
contacted for several months, you would be keenly aware how the situation
affects other people. You SHOULD be expecting others to take over, at least
temporarily.
At least you shouldnīt be surprised if some people are getting anxious after
almost FIVE months and THREE rounds of silence. And this happening on top of
repeated delays in the past. Which you should also be aware of.
This person cannot possibly expect the whole world to go to standstill, just
because they donīt have internet access!
If this admin cannot be contacted, then it most probably is because he
doesnīt wanīt to for some reason. He could write a letter or send a
telegram or use smoke signals or whatever means he has at his disposal!
Maybe at some point the IRTC was his precious baby, but right now it seems
that this baby has been abandoned BY EVERYONE.
Things do happen in peopleīs lives, and sometimes, if you canīt handle the
responsibility, you just have to let go and entrust other people with it.
Besides, why is everybody being so polite? If something isnīt working, then
it isnīt working. Itīs nothing personal. This should be a group effort, not
somebodyīs private undertaking!
I donīt intend to put blame on anyone or show disrespect, and I am very much
aware of the implications of real life. I, myself, would never volunteer for
this kind of long term commitment, I know so well how sudden changes can
disrupt your life one way or the other.
All I want is the IRTC to be put back in action. A whole bunch of skilled
people have repeatedly volunteered to help out and take on the
responsibility. They donīt seem to have received any response either.
People are kindly asking for a permission to put their effort in the
continuity of the IRTC, but there is NOBODY THERE to give permission.
It all boils down to a very simple reason, there is nobody in charge!
Thatīs all there is to it.
The question remains, WHAT can be done and by WHOM? Who is willing to cut
the crap and give the green light so we can all go on nurturing out
precious little baby, the IRTC?
Who started this competition originally? Who "owns" it?
If nothing is done, we are just going be kept in uncertainty forever.....
Hildur Kolbrun
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"Hildur K." <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> wrote:
> Sabrina Kilian <ykg### [at] vtedu> wrote:
>
>
> > Imagine that IRTC was your project, and something came up in your life
> > that prevented you from even having internet access. And when you got
> > back online, you found that other people had taken over your project.
> > It's not something many people would be comfortable with. Since the IRTC
> > admin can't be contacted, no one can even ask if they would like someone
> > to take over for them for a while.
> >
> > For a stand in competition, check the news://irtc.stills where there is
> > talk of another website that should keep us busy for the time being.
>
> I would put it this way: If you are the IRTC admin and you KNOW you canīt be
> contacted for several months, you would be keenly aware how the situation
> affects other people. You SHOULD be expecting others to take over, at least
> temporarily.
>
> At least you shouldnīt be surprised if some people are getting anxious after
> almost FIVE months and THREE rounds of silence. And this happening on top of
> repeated delays in the past. Which you should also be aware of.
>
> This person cannot possibly expect the whole world to go to standstill, just
> because they donīt have internet access!
>
> If this admin cannot be contacted, then it most probably is because he
> doesnīt wanīt to for some reason. He could write a letter or send a
> telegram or use smoke signals or whatever means he has at his disposal!
>
> Maybe at some point the IRTC was his precious baby, but right now it seems
> that this baby has been abandoned BY EVERYONE.
>
> Things do happen in peopleīs lives, and sometimes, if you canīt handle the
> responsibility, you just have to let go and entrust other people with it.
>
> Besides, why is everybody being so polite? If something isnīt working, then
> it isnīt working. Itīs nothing personal. This should be a group effort, not
> somebodyīs private undertaking!
>
> I donīt intend to put blame on anyone or show disrespect, and I am very much
> aware of the implications of real life. I, myself, would never volunteer for
> this kind of long term commitment, I know so well how sudden changes can
> disrupt your life one way or the other.
>
> All I want is the IRTC to be put back in action. A whole bunch of skilled
> people have repeatedly volunteered to help out and take on the
> responsibility. They donīt seem to have received any response either.
>
> People are kindly asking for a permission to put their effort in the
> continuity of the IRTC, but there is NOBODY THERE to give permission.
>
> It all boils down to a very simple reason, there is nobody in charge!
>
> Thatīs all there is to it.
>
> The question remains, WHAT can be done and by WHOM? Who is willing to cut
> the crap and give the green light so we can all go on nurturing out
> precious little baby, the IRTC?
>
> Who started this competition originally? Who "owns" it?
>
> If nothing is done, we are just going be kept in uncertainty forever.....
>
> Hildur Kolbrun
In Sabrina's and Hildur's points of view we have the core of the problem: is
it long enough for us to take over the IRTC?
case 1: no. We can give a little longer the benefit of doubt, and give the
admins a chance to explain what happened. Why would reasonable
people (as I think they could be) disappear so suddenly without
good reason? We have a subject to occupy us for the next 6 weeks ...
case 2: yes. We consider the situation has lasted already too long, and we
must act now. Whatever can be the reason of the admins'
(non-) behaviour, we give ourselves the right to set up any
competition we want, with any form, with anybody who agrees
with this. People here have already spent time for the new
competition.
(Question: What if Steve and other kind volunteers spend a lot more time
setting up the site the competition in a rush AND the IRTC admins are back
next month? What is the probability of this event? What about the notions
of 'right', 'ownership' and 'respect'?)
Today, my opinion is that we can 'wait' until end of April (Pseudo-IRTC
'Before and After' round), but prepare for an eventual new competition,
with a relatively smooth transition. Every day makes the probabilty of a
reply from the admins tend to zero. This would allow volunteers (thanks to
them) not to have too much pressure on them, with all the community staring
at them and awaiting them to finish.
So, no rush for preparing the new IRTC until end of April, just make it
feasible, but 'prepare' the future. If no news at this date, then we'll
consider the old IRTC definitively dead for us, whatever happens with the
admins after that, and we (Steve ...) have two extra months to make the new
competition work fine.
Bruno
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On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:32:59 -0500, Hildur K. wrote:
> This person cannot possibly expect the whole world to go to standstill,
> just because they donīt have internet access!
Yes, of course - because if they've ended up in hospital or had a serious
family emergency, their *first* thought should be IRTC, not the health and
well-being of a loved one or perhaps that they're in a coma or something.
Not that I know any of this to be true for the person in question, my
point is let's try to have some perspective here - since we don't know
the cause, let's not assume that IRTC should be their first priority.
Jim
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Hildur K. wrote:
> The question remains, WHAT can be done and by WHOM? Who is willing to cut
> the crap and give the green light so we can all go on nurturing out
> precious little baby, the IRTC?
>
> Who started this competition originally? Who "owns" it?
>
> If nothing is done, we are just going be kept in uncertainty forever.....
>
> Hildur Kolbrun
>
>
>
I was trying to avoid that whole train of thought, because it can't be
clear. Otherwise the POV-Ray team would have fixed things already. If
the competition is 'owned' by the POV-Ray team, then it would be an easy
fix to appoint a temporary admin and keep the web page as is. Since that
hasn't been done, and I'm not going to assume they just didn't think of
something that simple, the real situation must be more complicated.
It is my understanding that the POV-Ray team provides the webspace.
That's it. They don't 'own' the competition, so they can not transfer
the admin role to someone else. If they can not contact any of the
previous 'owners' then there isn't really anything they can do about it.
Even if they could contact someone who has since given up the project to
someone else, what right or capability do they have to give 'ownership'
to a new person?
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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:32:59 -0500, Hildur K. wrote:
>
> > This person cannot possibly expect the whole world to go to standstill,
> > just because they donīt have internet access!
>
> Yes, of course - because if they've ended up in hospital or had a serious
> family emergency, their *first* thought should be IRTC, not the health and
> well-being of a loved one or perhaps that they're in a coma or something.
>
> Not that I know any of this to be true for the person in question, my
> point is let's try to have some perspective here - since we don't know
> the cause, let's not assume that IRTC should be their first priority.
>
> Jim
We are being dragged into guessing what happened. Which makes lotīs of
people starting to think about all sorts of catastrophes. But itīs only
guesswork based on fantasy. What happened is none of our business, unless
this person wants to share it with us, of course.
According to the sparse facts we know for sure, nothing happened, except
this guy moved to a remote place. For some unknown reason he decided to cut
off from this community without preparation. Nobody to take over. No plan B.
We know this because he said he would be out of reach for some time. He
didnīt say how long..... That was in November last year.
The whole structure around the IRTC seems very obscure. Is it possible for
an admin to simply disappear and take the competition with him??? And if he
really ended up in a coma for the rest of his life, then no IRTC??
In the past I never thought that the IRTC was run by one person only. And I
always thought there was a connection with the POV team. I certainly never
thought that this particular person, the admin, "owned" the competition.
How did that happen? Who "owned" it before?
Hildur
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I don't know the answers to any of your questions, Hildur. I'm simply
saying that we shouldn't assume that anyone's life revolves around running
a website, and if something more severe came up, to demand that they do
something doesn't respect the fact that they may have something serious
come up in their lives.
There's an alternate competition being run in the interim, so participate
in that. It seems silly to me to demand that the site admin be handed
over when it's not clear who actually owns the site and whether or not
there's anything that *can* be done.
If the loss of IRTC is the most serious thing that's ever happened in your
life, you've been lucky. Cope.
Jim
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> It seems silly to me to demand that the site admin be handed
> over when it's not clear who actually owns the site and whether or not
> there's anything that *can* be done.
(not only responding to you)
Guys, you are repeating incorrect assumptions and guesses already clarified
in various previous discussions, particularly in the stills group. There is
no uncertainty who "owns the site" or anything like that.
Just get some perspective here: Do you think everybody who can do something
about the IRTC situation has just been sitting around for years with an
alternate plan to jump in at the very instance something goes wrong, has the
time to do that instantly, and really nothing better to do? Just get real,
please!!! Things take a bit of time and wild speculation about facts already
known to be false won't get you *anywhere*. Those speculations are just
waste _your_ own time -- lots of ray-tracing to do, you don't need a
competition for that! ;-)
Thorsten, POV-Team
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Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
>
> (not only responding to you)
>
> Guys, you are repeating incorrect assumptions and guesses already clarified
> in various previous discussions, particularly in the stills group. There is
> no uncertainty who "owns the site" or anything like that.
>
> Just get some perspective here: Do you think everybody who can do something
> about the IRTC situation has just been sitting around for years with an
> alternate plan to jump in at the very instance something goes wrong, has the
> time to do that instantly, and really nothing better to do? Just get real,
> please!!! Things take a bit of time and wild speculation about facts already
> known to be false won't get you *anywhere*. Those speculations are just
> waste _your_ own time -- lots of ray-tracing to do, you don't need a
> competition for that! ;-)
>
> Thorsten, POV-Team
Maybe one of the reasons that there is a bit of speculation is that people
are unclear of the situation. True there has been clarifications of wrong
assumptions but it has been piecemeal and not in the same place. It might
help the community if someone could take the time and trouble to spell out
the situation, simply.
Stephen
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"Bruno Cabasson" <bru### [at] alcatelaleniaspacefr> wrote:
> In Sabrina's and Hildur's points of view we have the core of the problem: is
> it long enough for us to take over the IRTC?
>
> case 1: no. We can give a little longer the benefit of doubt, and give the
> admins a chance to explain what happened. Why would reasonable
> people (as I think they could be) disappear so suddenly without
> good reason? We have a subject to occupy us for the next 6 weeks ...
>
> case 2: yes. We consider the situation has lasted already too long, and we
> must act now. Whatever can be the reason of the admins'
> (non-) behaviour, we give ourselves the right to set up any
> competition we want, with any form, with anybody who agrees
> with this. People here have already spent time for the new
> competition.
>
> (Question: What if Steve and other kind volunteers spend a lot more time
> setting up the site the competition in a rush AND the IRTC admins are back
> next month? What is the probability of this event? What about the notions
> of 'right', 'ownership' and 'respect'?)
>
> Today, my opinion is that we can 'wait' until end of April (Pseudo-IRTC
> 'Before and After' round), but prepare for an eventual new competition,
> with a relatively smooth transition. Every day makes the probabilty of a
> reply from the admins tend to zero. This would allow volunteers (thanks to
> them) not to have too much pressure on them, with all the community staring
> at them and awaiting them to finish.
>
> So, no rush for preparing the new IRTC until end of April, just make it
> feasible, but 'prepare' the future. If no news at this date, then we'll
> consider the old IRTC definitively dead for us, whatever happens with the
> admins after that, and we (Steve ...) have two extra months to make the new
> competition work fine.
>
> Bruno
Considering the last posts on the subject, I agree even more with myself ...
And I add this: it is no place here to make a trial, and the discussion has
already been too speculative. What ever how far we can go in speculating
and in the fantasy, this won't change the situation. I would appreciate
that we change from a negative behaviour as it was so far to a more
positive one: enjoy raytracing, post images instead of blah-blah, and be
happy we have such a free yet marvellous tool (POV) at our disposal, and
nice people to help us (again for free). So why do some feel so offended?
It is just a hobby ;o) ...
Bruno
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"Stephen" <mcavoys_AT_aolDOT.com> wrote:
> Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> >
> > (not only responding to you)
> >
> > Guys, you are repeating incorrect assumptions and guesses already clarified
> > in various previous discussions, particularly in the stills group. There is
> > no uncertainty who "owns the site" or anything like that.
> >
> > Just get some perspective here: Do you think everybody who can do something
> > about the IRTC situation has just been sitting around for years with an
> > alternate plan to jump in at the very instance something goes wrong, has the
> > time to do that instantly, and really nothing better to do? Just get real,
> > please!!! Things take a bit of time and wild speculation about facts already
> > known to be false won't get you *anywhere*. Those speculations are just
> > waste _your_ own time -- lots of ray-tracing to do, you don't need a
> > competition for that! ;-)
> >
> > Thorsten, POV-Team
>
> Maybe one of the reasons that there is a bit of speculation is that people
> are unclear of the situation. True there has been clarifications of wrong
> assumptions but it has been piecemeal and not in the same place. It might
> help the community if someone could take the time and trouble to spell out
> the situation, simply.
>
>
>
> Stephen
Nobody is asking for an instant fix, but you know, days, weeks and months
are passing by.
Like Stephen said, people just need to know. Why has the IRTC come to an
standstill, and what can we expect in the future.
Thatīs all.
Hildur
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On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 07:35:50 +0100, Thorsten Froehlich wrote:
> Guys, you are repeating incorrect assumptions and guesses already clarified
> in various previous discussions, particularly in the stills group. There is
> no uncertainty who "owns the site" or anything like that.
Thanks, Thorsten - I should've clarified that it wasn't clear to me
(because it isn't, as I have not been following the discussions that
closely). I just get annoyed when people start making what sounds to me
like demands of others who are kind enough to volunteer their time to do
something.
But I've also been a little hypersensitive to the issue recently as well,
as I've recently had to deliver bad news to nearly a thousand people
about their status in a program, and I've had a few who felt entitled to
remain even though they didn't meet the requirements. The responses have
ranged from sad understanding to outright threats.
This feeling of "entitlement" that some people have just drives me over
the edge sometimes. Apologies if I caused anyone offense.
Jim
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Sabrina Kilian wrote:
>Imagine that IRTC was your project, and something came up in your life
>that prevented you from even having internet access. And when you got
>back online, you found that other people had taken over your project.
>
>
I can think of two analogies to this: Imagine that some bad,
unavoidable thing happens and you have to be away from home for a
while. On the one hand, if you get home and find that your neighbors
have come in and rummaged through your stuff, made fun of your ratty
underwear, and so forth, you're going to be upset. On the other hand,
if you get home and find that your neighbors have come in and fed your
pets, cleaned out your fridge, and so forth, you're happy.
So--which is it? Danged if I have any idea, just some random thoughts
on the subject.
--Sherry Shaw
--
#macro T(E,N)sphere{x,.4rotate z*E*60translate y*N pigment{wrinkles scale
.3}finish{ambient 1}}#end#local I=0;#while(I<5)T(I,1)T(1-I,-1)#local I=I+
1;#end camera{location-5*z}plane{z,37 pigment{granite color_map{[.7rgb 0]
[1rgb 1]}}finish{ambient 2}}// TenMoons
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My initial question was:
> So what's the plan? Is there going to be some effort
> made in continuing the IRTC, or will it be left in
> permanant limbo?
If this has been answered, it hasn't been clearly communicated. From the
responses given by the POV-Ray team, the answer seems to be "We haven't
decided, and we won't for at least three or four months."
That's fine, and there's nothing the matter with saying that. So how about
the following:
1. The current plan, if any, should be posted on the IRTC site. That way,
there wouldn't be speculation, people wouldn't have to try digging through
this site or the mailing list, wondering if they've missed some
information. A plan can be as simple as "We will wait until <DATE> before
taking any action."
2. If there's any hint as to what that action might be, that would be
helpful as well.
3. If there's a date for any of this - even if it's months away - please
post that, too.
4. If there are reasons that could help people understand (and even
sympathize) with how/why/when the POV-Ray team is doing whatever actions
they are, it would be helpful to post these as well.
Thanks!
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