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From: Jim Charter
Subject: Decay...Champ No More
Date: 19 Nov 2003 23:08:20
Message: <3fbc3e34$1@news.povray.org>
In deference to this entry, I offer these quotes from "Mike Tyson" by 
Joyce Carol Oates:


As soon as the bell sounds, opening round one, Tyson rushes out of his 
corner to bring the fight to Berbick. In these quicksilver seconds, when 
far more happens than the eye, let alone the verbalizing consciousness, 
can absorb, it is clear that Tyson is the stronger of the two, the more 
dominant; willful. He pushes forward unmindful of Berbick's greater age 
and experience; the fight is to be his fight. If boxing is as much a 
contest of psyches as of physical prowess, it is soon clear that Tyson, 
on the attack, throwing beautifully controlled punches, is the superior 


...

Early in the second round, Tyson knocks Berbick to the canvas with a 
powerful combination of blows, including a left hook; when Berbick 
manages to get gamely to his feet he is knocked down a second time with 

area." (As Tyson will say afterward, he had come to "destroy" the 
champion: "Every punch had a murderous intention.") Accompanied by the 
wild clamor of the crowd as by an exotic sort of music, Berbick 
struggles to his feet, his expression glazed like that of a man trapped 
in a dream; he lurches across the ring on wobbly legs, falls another 
time, onto the ropes; as if by a sheer effort of will gets up, staggers 
across the ring in the opposite direction, is precariously on his feet 
when the referee, Mills Lane, stops the fight. No more than nine seconds 
have passed since Tyson's blow but the sequence, in slow motion, has 
seemed much longer . . . . The nightmare image of a man struggling to 
retain consciousness and physical control before nine thousand witnesses 
is likely to linger in the memory: it is an image as inevitable in 
boxing as that of the ecstatic boxer with his gloved hands raised in triumph

For more JCO's teasers on Tyson and on Boxing see:
http://storm.usfca.edu/~southerr/ontyson.html

-Jim


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From: St 
Subject: Re: Decay...Champ No More
Date: 21 Nov 2003 17:41:36
Message: <3fbe94a0@news.povray.org>
"Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote in message
news:3fbc3e34$1@news.povray.org...
>
  <snip commentary>

   Jim, you're a boxing fan? I've always loved the sport of boxing. It
was my Grandad (Dad) that got me into it when I was around seven years
old and Cassius Clay was trumpeting his wares before slipping through
the ropes to prove he had the skill and nouse about *his* fighting
stature. I think it was the fight labelled "The Rumble in the Jungle"
that my Dad woke me up for, very late at night, so as to not wake my
sister... ;)  This went on with many of Clays fights, and then
eventually, Ali's.

   As for the IRTC 'Decay' round - well, I'm not voting or commenting
this time because again, I really can't comment on the excellence that
I see. I also didn't enter myself because I've recently gone through a
very traumatic experience that I wish never to be repeated. It's just
as well, because I was going to do an image of the Earth decaying, and
I noticed that someone else did the same, but using the Moon instead -
his 'left-hooked' mine bigtime. ;)

>
> For more JCO's teasers on Tyson and on Boxing see:
> http://storm.usfca.edu/~southerr/ontyson.html

 Thanks for that, she's a good writer.

    Later,

   ~Steve~


> -Jim


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From: Jim Charter
Subject: Re: Decay...Champ No More
Date: 21 Nov 2003 20:34:12
Message: <3fbebd14$1@news.povray.org>
St. wrote:
> "Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote in message
> news:3fbc3e34$1@news.povray.org...
> 
>   <snip commentary>
> 
>    Jim, you're a boxing fan? I've always loved the sport of boxing. It
> was my Grandad (Dad) that got me into it when I was around seven years
> old and Cassius Clay was trumpeting his wares before slipping through
> the ropes to prove he had the skill and nouse about *his* fighting
> stature. I think it was the fight labelled "The Rumble in the Jungle"
> that my Dad woke me up for, very late at night, so as to not wake my
> sister... ;)  This went on with many of Clays fights, and then
> eventually, Ali's.

Boxing always fascinated me though I very much grew up in a culture that 
tried to ignore it, fearing its feral, outlaw nature.  I always watched 
any title fights that were luckily televised.  It was a furtive sort of 
hidden interest.  I think I always was subject to its metaphorical power.

I think I discovered "On Boxing" by JCO years ago actually while 
browsing in a bookstore.  I was familiar with her as an author though 
I'd read only a few of her things.  When they call her work 
"unflinching" they mean it.  When you read her stories you definitely 
flinch.  She grew up relatively close to me in North American terms, in 
the same Great Lakes Basin landscape on the American side of the border 
that I was intimate with on the Canadian side.  She famously attended a 
one room school house.  Well I went to a two room school house and had I 
been Oates' age it would have been one room. ( I think she's about a 
dozen years older than me. )  She taught in small colleges in the Great 
Lakes region just like the one I went to. Her stories recreate that time 
and place, well, unflinchingly.  The thought of this slightly-built 
feminist writing on the subject of boxing was too much for me to resist.

There is a pub a block away from me here called "The Telephone Bar" 
http://www.telebar.com/
It features three large red English telephone boxes set into its store 
front.  It's the pub I always go to.  So I took my copy of "On Boxing" 
there one holiday afternoon and sipped English beer and read the thing 
in a single sitting.  If JCO could treat the subject so lovingly, I 
learned to feel less guilty about watching it and more appreciative of 
its nuances.  She made me very aware of the mental side of it.  The 
feint within feint within feint.

So I very much enjoy watching it now, for its science and its savagery. 
  But it is an existential involvement.  I am not really conversant with 
the sport; don't really know its history.  Ron did the tracing I'd 
sometimes considered doing but never really dared to.  I thought he 
pulled it off wonderfully.


> 
>    As for the IRTC 'Decay' round - well, I'm not voting or commenting
> this time because again, I really can't comment on the excellence that

I did the voting but then screwed up my login/password so my votes were 
rejected.  I'll have to work in the comments I made about "Champ No 
More" some other way.

> I see. I also didn't enter myself because I've recently gone through a
> very traumatic experience that I wish never to be repeated. It's just

I am grieved to hear that.  You've been missed.  I hope traumatic 
doesn't mean tragic.

> 
> 
>  Thanks for that, she's a good writer.
> 

I think she's the real McCoy.


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From: gonzo
Subject: Re: Decay...Champ No More
Date: 23 Nov 2003 16:13:31
Message: <3fc122fb@news.povray.org>
Jim Charter <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote in message
news:3fbebd14$1@news.povray.org...

> St. wrote:
> >    Jim, you're a boxing fan? I've always loved the sport of boxing. It
> > was my Grandad (Dad) that got me into it when I was around seven years
> > old and Cassius Clay was trumpeting his wares before slipping through
> > the ropes to prove he had the skill and nouse about *his* fighting
> > stature. I think it was the fight labelled "The Rumble in the Jungle"
> > that my Dad woke me up for, very late at night, so as to not wake my
> > sister... ;)  This went on with many of Clays fights, and then
> > eventually, Ali's.

What got me into boxing wasn't even a real fight, it was "Superfight", the
computerized version of Ali -vs- Marciano.  It made me realize though that
there was more to it than just the physical act of hitting someone, and that
there was strategy & thought involved.

As I was learning to appreciate the sport, a friend's father was a sports
announcer & invited to go with him to several local fights, and he'd go to
the dressing room to interview the fighters. I was always amazed at how
different they seemed out of the ring. And when I was taking some classes at
the local community college in the early 80s, I worked and studied quite a
bit with then-contender Pete Ranzany, and he was almost a completely
different person.  To meet him on the street, you would never guess he was a
fighter. Very unassuming, quiet and peaceful man, who was more comfortable
discussing his labrador retriever than boxing.

<snip>
>   But it is an existential involvement.  I am not really conversant with
> the sport; don't really know its history.  Ron did the tracing I'd
> sometimes considered doing but never really dared to.  I thought he
> pulled it off wonderfully.

Thanks!  I'd considered doing a boxing image for some time also, but never
quite had a perspective fixed to work with.  Then when the Decay topic was
announced, I had the idea of focusing on the loser instead of the winner,
and realized that was what I had been looking for. So I finally did the
scene.

> > I see. I also didn't enter myself because I've recently gone through a
> > very traumatic experience that I wish never to be repeated. It's just

Sorry to hear that! I hope everything has resolved favorably!

RG


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From: St 
Subject: Re: Decay...Champ No More
Date: 23 Nov 2003 16:29:59
Message: <3fc126d7@news.povray.org>
"Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote in message
news:3fbebd14$1@news.povray.org...
> St. wrote:
> > "Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote in message
> > news:3fbc3e34$1@news.povray.org...

> >    Jim, you're a boxing fan?

> Boxing always fascinated me though I very much grew up in a culture
that
> tried to ignore it, fearing its feral, outlaw nature.

    I can understand that. Here, as a true 'Champ' or 'Championed'
sport, i.e. the papers love it if we do well in the heavyweight
division, it's almost a way of life, and yet most will say that they
don't like it.

 I always watched
> any title fights that were luckily televised.  It was a furtive sort
of
> hidden interest.  I think I always was subject to its metaphorical
power.

   Yes, and what power that is, and can be. I guess it's no different
to the ol' gladiators really.


>
> I think I discovered "On Boxing" by JCO years ago actually while
> browsing in a bookstore.  I was familiar with her as an author
though
> I'd read only a few of her things.  When they call her work
> "unflinching" they mean it.  When you read her stories you
definitely
> flinch.  She grew up relatively close to me in North American terms,
in
> the same Great Lakes Basin landscape on the American side of the
border
> that I was intimate with on the Canadian side.  She famously
attended a
> one room school house.  Well I went to a two room school house and
had I
> been Oates' age it would have been one room. ( I think she's about a
> dozen years older than me. )  She taught in small colleges in the
Great
> Lakes region just like the one I went to. Her stories recreate that
time
> and place, well, unflinchingly.

  What a fascinating time you've had.


> The thought of this slightly-built
> feminist writing on the subject of boxing was too much for me to
resist.


  ...And now you've got me going too. I'll look out for her or order
something from the bookshop.


>
> There is a pub a block away from me here called "The Telephone Bar"
> http://www.telebar.com/
> It features three large red English telephone boxes set into its
store
> front.  It's the pub I always go to.  So I took my copy of "On
Boxing"
> there one holiday afternoon and sipped English beer and read the
thing
> in a single sitting.  If JCO could treat the subject so lovingly, I
> learned to feel less guilty about watching it and more appreciative
of
> its nuances.  She made me very aware of the mental side of it.  The
> feint within feint within feint.

 Ooh, yes. There is a lot of that feinting going on.

  I used to train at a boxing club in Portsmouth, Southern England,
when I was 12 years old - I loved the training, but more importantly,
I loved the sparring - *they* could belt the hell out of you, but
*you* could do the same back... ;) This was all with the proper
headguard, gum-shields, etc., heh, it WAS great fun, really.

>
> So I very much enjoy watching it now, for its science and its
savagery.
>   But it is an existential involvement.  I am not really conversant
with
> the sport; don't really know its history.

I know some history, but you would have to ask me the question
first...  ;)


Ron did the tracing I'd
> sometimes considered doing but never really dared to.  I thought he
> pulled it off wonderfully.

  You know, that image of Rons is fantastic. It captures the right
scene for me. I appreciate his work more each time, and I have to say,
yours too. Have you two got a bet on?  ;)

> >
> >    As for the IRTC 'Decay' round - well, I'm not voting or
commenting
> > this time because again, I really can't comment on the excellence
that
>
> I did the voting but then screwed up my login/password so my votes
were
> rejected.  I'll have to work in the comments I made about "Champ No
> More" some other way.

   And I'm sure you can do that.

>
> > I see. I also didn't enter myself because I've recently gone
through a
> > very traumatic experience that I wish never to be repeated. It's
just
>
> I am grieved to hear that.  You've been missed.  I hope traumatic
> doesn't mean tragic.

   No, not tragic thankfully, but at the time, I thought it was going
to be, (it takes a lot to frighten me, but this, I don't want to
experience again). Thank you for your concern Jim.


>
> >
> >
> >  Thanks for that, she's a good writer.
> >
>
> I think she's the real McCoy.

   Yes, indeed.

   ~Steve~


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From: St 
Subject: Re: Decay...Champ No More
Date: 23 Nov 2003 16:45:43
Message: <3fc12a87@news.povray.org>
"gonzo" <rgo### [at] lansetcom> wrote in message
news:3fc122fb@news.povray.org...

> Sorry to hear that! I hope everything has resolved favorably!

 Thank you Ron, everything is much, much better than four weeks ago
now.

 I feel bad about not entering the IRTC because I feel such a fool
that I stated I would in a previous post of mine, and then something
happens - I think they call it 'Real Life'... Thanks again.

   ~Steve~


>
> RG
>
>


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From: Jim Charter
Subject: Re: Decay...Champ No More
Date: 23 Nov 2003 18:42:08
Message: <3fc145d0$1@news.povray.org>
gonzo wrote:

> 
> As I was learning to appreciate the sport, a friend's father was a sports
> announcer & invited to go with him to several local fights, and he'd go to
> the dressing room to interview the fighters. I was always amazed at how
> different they seemed out of the ring. 

That's cool.  I'd love to see a fight for real.  The professional 
matches are a bit out of reach here:

http://www.eventinventory.com/search/results.cfm?cfid=10741199&cftoken=d89684-ba1feb67-c4e9-4b4b-b095-1ac1ec7b3872&cfuser=90AAF5DC-9843-47F0-8448CFB79BEF0618&client=1454&d=12/6/2003&e=4867&s=1&v=973

But your image has got me curious again.  Maybe I can find something

-Jim


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From: gonzo
Subject: Re: Decay...Champ No More
Date: 23 Nov 2003 21:44:13
Message: <3fc1707d@news.povray.org>
Jim Charter <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote in message
news:3fc145d0$1@news.povray.org...
> That's cool.  I'd love to see a fight for real.  The professional
> matches are a bit out of reach here:
>
>
http://www.eventinventory.com/search/results.cfm?cfid=10741199&cftoken=d8968
4-ba1feb67-c4e9-4b4b-b095-1ac1ec7b3872&cfuser=90AAF5DC-9843-47F0-8448CFB79BE
F0618&client=1454&d=12/6/2003&e=4867&s=1&v=973

OUCH!!!  Serious ticket prices!  I never realized how lucky I was!!!  My
friend's father passed away in 95, and I haven't been to a pro fight since.
I do go to amateur fights at a local gym a few times a year to see my
girlfriend's nephew fight.

I live near Sacramento, CA and there is quite a boxing community here. Local
world-class fighters included Bobby Chacon in the 70s, Pete Ranzany 70s-80s,
Mario & Tony Lopez 80s-90s, & currently Diego Corrales. (and look out for an
up & coming Michael Simms...) I was lucky enough to meet all of those except
Corrales.

The most notable fight I got to see was Bobby Chacon -vs- Cornelious
Boza-Edwards, a highlight film classic that a behind-on-points Chacon won by
KO with 20 secs left in the 15th.  That one was also the inspiration for the
atmosphere and the camera angle of my image, because that's how I remember
it from the ringside announcer's seat.

> But your image has got me curious again.  Maybe I can find something

Check your local Police Athletic league for amateur exhibitions.  Sometimes
the amateurs are even more exciting than the pros.

RG


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From: gonzo
Subject: Re: Decay...Champ No More
Date: 23 Nov 2003 21:55:42
Message: <3fc1732e@news.povray.org>
St. <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote in message news:3fc126d7@news.povray.org...
>    Yes, and what power that is, and can be. I guess it's no different
> to the ol' gladiators really.

And I thought it was just because we all like to watch someone else take the
beating while we sit and talk about how much better we would have done it
ourselves... ;-)

>   I used to train at a boxing club in Portsmouth, Southern England,
> when I was 12 years old - I loved the training, but more importantly,
> I loved the sparring - *they* could belt the hell out of you, but
> *you* could do the same back... ;) This was all with the proper
> headguard, gum-shields, etc., heh, it WAS great fun, really.

Heh heh, emphasis on WAS...

>   You know, that image of Rons is fantastic. It captures the right
> scene for me. I appreciate his work more each time, and I have to say,
> yours too. Have you two got a bet on?  ;)

Thank you!  No bet, at least not that I know of...


>    No, not tragic thankfully, but at the time, I thought it was going
> to be, (it takes a lot to frighten me, but this, I don't want to
> experience again).

Glad to hear it all worked out ok.

> > >  Thanks for that, she's a good writer.

Yeah, I'm going to have to check her out now, too...

RG


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From: Jim Charter
Subject: Re: Decay...Champ No More
Date: 23 Nov 2003 23:10:52
Message: <3fc184cc$1@news.povray.org>
St. wrote:


>   I used to train at a boxing club in Portsmouth, Southern England,
> when I was 12 years old - 

Sounds like a fairly tough venue.  Picturing a dingy gym near the docks.


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