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I am considering entering an image to the IRTC image round with the topic
"Worship".
My image is a possible Christian interpretation of hell.
My problem is that I don't know exactly what "worship" means. Is it only
something one considers truly great and good, or can it also be something
one considers truly horrible and bad?
Or more to the point: can normal people worship hell, or would only sick
people do that (like maybe Satanists)?
I don't want to submit an image if the connection to the theme is not
obvious...
Rune
--
\ Include files, tutorials, 3D images, raytracing jokes,
/ The POV Desktop Theme, and The POV-Ray Logo Contest can
\ all be found at http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk (updated January 6)
/ Also visit http://www.povrayusers.org
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On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:37:57 +0100 Rune wrote:
>I don't want to submit an image if the connection to the theme is not
>obvious...
Quoting from the IRTC notes on the current theme:
http://www.irtc.org/stills/curtopic.html
"Where or what people worship: an ancient cathedral, a modern mosque,
Studio 54, Yosemite; gods, devils, Mother Nature, rock stars,
supermodels, television, money. Any thing or any place revered as
supernatural or numinous."
"Numinous" can be defined as "Of, or relating to, a numen;
supernatural". This is a new word to me. I guess they are referring to
Newman, the eccentric postal worker on (Jerry) "Seinfeld" ;)
--
Alan - ako### [at] povray org - a k o n g <at> p o v r a y <dot> o r g
http://www.povray.org - Home of the Persistence of Vision Ray Tracer
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I would say that the contemplation of "hell" might be considered primary to
Christian faithand therefore
a component in the 'reality' of an individual's 'worship'
Rune wrote:
> I am considering entering an image to the IRTC image round with the topic
> "Worship".
> My image is a possible Christian interpretation of hell.
>
> My problem is that I don't know exactly what "worship" means. Is it only
> something one considers truly great and good, or can it also be something
> one considers truly horrible and bad?
>
> Or more to the point: can normal people worship hell, or would only sick
> people do that (like maybe Satanists)?
>
> I don't want to submit an image if the connection to the theme is not
> obvious...
>
> Rune
> --
> \ Include files, tutorials, 3D images, raytracing jokes,
> / The POV Desktop Theme, and The POV-Ray Logo Contest can
> \ all be found at http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk (updated January 6)
> / Also visit http://www.povrayusers.org
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"Rune" <run### [at] inamecom> wrote in message
news:3a6dde1e@news.povray.org...
> I am considering entering an image to the IRTC image round with the topic
> "Worship".
> My image is a possible Christian interpretation of hell.
I can't imagine anyone finding this off-topic. Go, Rune, Go.
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In article <3a6dde1e@news.povray.org>, "Rune" <run### [at] inamecom>
wrote:
>Or more to the point: can normal people worship hell, or would only sick
>people do that (like maybe Satanists)?
This is a really weird question, because I was just doing a write-up of
Christian "gods" for a role-playing game, and just finished Satan before
reading your message :*)
The short answer: even normal Christians will "propitiate" Satan and the
denizens of Hell. That's what Hallowe'en is all about
(post-Christianity, of course), after all. On rare occasions, some
Christians will "bargain" with Satan, offering their soul in return for
some material benefit.
Satanists, in my limited experience, tend to worship the pre-Christian
being that Satan became--that is, they're another form of Wicca, not
Christianity. As such, I'm not sure that they have a hell, but I'd be
willing to bet that a Google search on "Satanism" would come up with
some more definitive answers.
Satan
Names: Satan, Lucifer
Sobriquets: The Morning Star, The Fallen One, The Tempter, The Prince of
Deception, The Devil
Symbols: Venus, Cloven Feet, Rams¹ Horns, Pitchfork
Worshippers: Politicians, Businessmen, Musicians
Moral Codes: Ordered, Evil, Ordered Evil, Chaotic Evil
Prophets: Ordered Evil
Satan is a fallen angel, who rebelled against the order of Heaven. Some
legends say that he did this because he was jealous of the attention
given to Jehovah¹s new creation, humanity. Others simply say that his
pride led him to believe he could rule Heaven well in Jehovah¹s place.
His rebellion failed, and he was cast down with his followers to
Gehennah, or Hell, with all the damned souls of humanity. He set himself
and his followers up as rulers in Hell (or perhaps this was Jehovah¹s
plan for him all alongsome say that angels do not have free will).
Satan rules over the demons, some or all of whom were also fallen
angels, and ensures the eternal suffering of the damned, those who are
not worthy to enter Heaven.
Satan sees himself in competition with Jehovah for the souls of humans.
He sends his minions out in his name to tempt good people into pride,
and to ensure the continued wickedness of evil people.
In general, Christians do not worship Satan. To do so ensures their
eternal damnation well beyond their few years as mortal beings. But the
more superstitious will propitiate Satan and his followers, by, for
example, placing gourds with evil faces and burning candles on their
doorstep the night before All Saints¹ Day, or by throwing a pinch of
salt over their left shoulder after spilling salt. Many Christians
celebrate ³Hallowe¹en², the night before All Saint¹s Day, by either
dressing as evil spirits and going from house to house to demand
tribute, or by staying home and presenting tribute (minor gifts, candy,
or food) to Satan's minions on demand.
Some Christians will go further, however, and attempt to ³bargain² with
Satan to gain earthly benefits in return for their soul. That is, upon
their death their soul will be Satan¹s in Hell. Some do this because
they believe that their sins are already unforgiveable. Some believe
that they are better lawyers than Satan and will be able to find a flaw
in the contractual agreement. Others may do so without looking to the
future at all. Some may do so in the belief that Hell cannot be as bad
as it is said to be. Satan is a master of deception and flattery and
will encourage any and all such tendencies. Whether these contracts are
entered into with Satan or with one of Satan¹s other followers is open
to debate.
Christian legend has it that at the end of the world, Satan will return
to Earth with all his legions, including the damned, to do war with
Jehovah and his legions of angels, led by Jesus. The return of Satan
(and thus the return of Jesus) will be marked by incredible signs and
portents. However, before the true end of the world, Satan will tempt
humans to prophecize about ends of the world that never happen.
Satan is associated with the planet Venus, the incredibly bright ³star²
that never rises above the Earth for long without falling.
Jerry
--
http://www.hoboes.com/jerry/
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and you've
depleted the lake."--It Isn't Murder If They're Yankees
(http://www.hoboes.com/jerry/Murder/)
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Thank you all for your feedback!
I think I understand it now, and I intent to participate. :)
Rune
--
\ Include files, tutorials, 3D images, raytracing jokes,
/ The POV Desktop Theme, and The POV-Ray Logo Contest can
\ all be found at http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk (updated January 6)
/ Also visit http://www.povrayusers.org
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"Jerry" wrote:
> In general, Christians do not worship Satan. To do so
> ensures their eternal damnation well beyond their few
> years as mortal beings.
This is what I feared. Some says that "worship" can mean anything numinous
and supernatural (which would include hell), but according to you, it also
has to be something you find positive (which excludes hell).
So I'm still confused... :(
Rune
--
\ Include files, tutorials, 3D images, raytracing jokes,
/ The POV Desktop Theme, and The POV-Ray Logo Contest can
\ all be found at http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk (updated January 6)
/ Also visit http://www.povrayusers.org
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Rune wrote:
>
> "Jerry" wrote:
> > In general, Christians do not worship Satan. To do so
> > ensures their eternal damnation well beyond their few
> > years as mortal beings.
>
> This is what I feared. Some says that "worship" can mean anything numinous
> and supernatural (which would include hell), but according to you, it also
> has to be something you find positive (which excludes hell).
>
> So I'm still confused... :(
Hell is negative to those who worship Christ. Hell is positive to those
who worship Satan. It all depends upon your frame of reference.
--
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/
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"Rune" <run### [at] inamecom> wrote in message
news:3a6f1ca3@news.povray.org...
> "Jerry" wrote:
> > In general, Christians do not worship Satan. To do so
> > ensures their eternal damnation well beyond their few
> > years as mortal beings.
> This is what I feared. Some says that "worship" can mean anything numinous
> and supernatural (which would include hell), but according to you, it also
> has to be something you find positive (which excludes hell).
> So I'm still confused... :(
Well, that all depends.. Do they worship what they consider 'God' out of
fear of hell? Depends on what tangent you wish to take with it. I would
say, go with it. If you really want alot about it, check out
http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=worship
I'd say it's a judgment call, no pun intended. I'd say to worship
something, you have the revere it in some way. This would denote a positive
light. You could really take a tangent on it, and say that in the way one
worships, they are worshiping hell, in the guise of doing so to their god..
I mean, christians raping young children and all. (NOT trying to create an
argument, merely trying to point out ways to interpret things in a personal
light..)
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"Thomas Charron" wrote:
> Do they worship what they consider 'God' out of fear of hell?
Some might, but that's not the point. They would still be worshipping God,
and not hell.
> Depends on what tangent you wish to take with it.
I wish the connection to the theme "worship" to be obvious, not just
acceptable. I understand that hell is normally not considered to be an
object of worship, because hell is a negative thing, and worship is
(normally) about positive things. That's all I wanted to know.
That settles it. I think my image is too off-topic. I don't want some
tortuous argument to justify the connection to the theme.
Well IRTC, maybe another time...
Rune
--
\ Include files, tutorials, 3D images, raytracing jokes,
/ The POV Desktop Theme, and The POV-Ray Logo Contest can
\ all be found at http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk (updated January 6)
/ Also visit http://www.povrayusers.org
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In article <3a6f1ca3@news.povray.org>, "Rune" <run### [at] inamecom>
wrote:
>"Jerry" wrote:
>> In general, Christians do not worship Satan. To do so
>> ensures their eternal damnation well beyond their few
>> years as mortal beings.
>
>This is what I feared. Some says that "worship" can mean anything numinous
>and supernatural (which would include hell), but according to you, it also
>has to be something you find positive (which excludes hell).
>
>So I'm still confused... :(
Remember that the part of my post you were quoting was the part from the
game. It's just a game. I didn't say that people only worship positive
things, just that the beliefs of Christianity make it unlikely that they
would worship Satan, especially in a role-playing game.
See http://www.religioustolerance.org/satanism.htm for a very good take
on the varying meanings people have for "Satanism".
For the "Church of Satan", see
http://www.religioustolerance.org/satanis1.htm where it is stated that
one of the Church of Satan's beliefs is that hell does not exist. (This
is in line with my experience, which is that those who worship Satan are
not the same people as those who believe in Hell.)
If, on the other hand, you wanted both (a) a very negative Hell, and (b)
real people who worship it, then, yes, I'd say you would require
something fairly convoluted to get the connection made.
This is not to say that Christians do not believe that people worship
Satan. The witch madnesses of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries
were against hordes of imagined worshippers of Satan. You ought to be
able to find a ton of woodcuts with images of this form of Satan
worship, as imagined by the persecutors. Anti-witch books were big
business then. See Malleus Maleficarum (Heinrich Kramer, James
Sprenger), Demonolatry (Nicholas Remy), and Compendium Maleficarum
(Francesco Maria Guazzo) for some of the more popular examples.
Jerry
--
http://www.hoboes.com/jerry/
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and you've
depleted the lake."--It Isn't Murder If They're Yankees
(http://www.hoboes.com/jerry/Murder/)
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I wouldn't think it was off topic intially. If I let myself think about it I
begin to wonder what the message of hte image I might wonder, but if the
image is ona poster labeled "Why you should be good." I wouldn't wonder at
all
Josh
Rune wrote:
> I am considering entering an image to the IRTC image round with the topic
> "Worship".
> My image is a possible Christian interpretation of hell.
>
> My problem is that I don't know exactly what "worship" means. Is it only
> something one considers truly great and good, or can it also be something
> one considers truly horrible and bad?
>
> Or more to the point: can normal people worship hell, or would only sick
> people do that (like maybe Satanists)?
>
> I don't want to submit an image if the connection to the theme is not
> obvious...
>
> Rune
> --
> \ Include files, tutorials, 3D images, raytracing jokes,
> / The POV Desktop Theme, and The POV-Ray Logo Contest can
> \ all be found at http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk (updated January 6)
> / Also visit http://www.povrayusers.org
--
Josh English -- Lexiphanic Lethomaniac
eng### [at] spiritonecom
The POV-Ray Cyclopedia http://www.spiritone.com/~english/cyclopedia/
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"Ken" <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote in message
news:3A6F23B3.4DCDE48D@pacbell.net...
> > So I'm still confused... :(
> Hell is negative to those who worship Christ. Hell is positive to those
> who worship Satan. It all depends upon your frame of reference.
Yes, but from what I've gathered, his depiction of hell would certainly
*NOT* be the one that some Satanists would have. :-)
"Alright, we're all gonna kill ourselves, so we can spend the rest of
time in eternal pain and suffering, whadda say, guys!!!!!" :-)
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"Jerry" <jer### [at] acusdedu> wrote in message
news:jerry-471749.13340924012001@news.povray.org...
> This is not to say that Christians do not believe that people worship
> Satan. The witch madnesses of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries
> were against hordes of imagined worshippers of Satan. You ought to be
> able to find a ton of woodcuts with images of this form of Satan
> worship, as imagined by the persecutors. Anti-witch books were big
> business then. See Malleus Maleficarum (Heinrich Kramer, James
> Sprenger), Demonolatry (Nicholas Remy), and Compendium Maleficarum
> (Francesco Maria Guazzo) for some of the more popular examples.
Well, this also is most likely due to the depiction of the god in the
form of the great horned one. If I where Christian, I can see how this
would be construed as worshiping satan.. :-)
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"worship" is what you do to make your believe real. Anything that contibutes
to that reality is part of the act of worship
if making "hell" real contributes to your believe then it is justifiable as
"worship"
Rune wrote:
> "Jerry" wrote:
> > In general, Christians do not worship Satan. To do so
> > ensures their eternal damnation well beyond their few
> > years as mortal beings.
>
> This is what I feared. Some says that "worship" can mean anything numinous
> and supernatural (which would include hell), but according to you, it also
> has to be something you find positive (which excludes hell).
>
> So I'm still confused... :(
>
> Rune
> --
> \ Include files, tutorials, 3D images, raytracing jokes,
> / The POV Desktop Theme, and The POV-Ray Logo Contest can
> \ all be found at http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk (updated January 6)
> / Also visit http://www.povrayusers.org
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I'm a christian, so may I put in my two cents after considering all these
things? Starting from the beginning...
Hell is a place of eternal suffering. Christians worship God, who is in no
way related with Hell. By worship I mean: to praise and honor, to exalt, to
hold in high esteem, to love, to obey, to tell of, etc. Things not at all
related to Hell.
About the whole Satan thing, Satan is an angel who rebelled against God, and
being defeated, lives in Hell. Satan is the ultimate evil, the Father of
Lies. There is *no* good in Satan, and there is *no* evil in God. (Iıve
never heard him called the ³Morning Star², either).
Now, after God created the universe (as he did), and created humans (he did
that too), they rebelled also. This caused the whole earth to fall into
Satanıs power. Every human on earth was owned by Satan. (One can not ³sell²
oneıs soul to Satan, he all ready owns it).
No one,I say *NO ONE*, is ³worthy to enter Heaven². Not you, not me, no one.
That means we would all have to go the Hell, except...
God, who loves people and wants to be with them, sent Jesus to earth to save
us. Jesus is %100 God and %100 man at the same time. Jesus died for every
wrong thing everyone has ever done and ever will do, so that we can go to
Heaven, Godıs home. Then, God raised Jesus from the died, defeating Satan!
Anyone, *anyone*, who believes that Jesus died for them will be saved from
death, e.g. go the Heaven. Anyone who does not will go the Hell.
Jesus is always with us, and in us, but at the end of the earth, he will
return in physical, visible form, in great glory and majesty. All the
christians remaining on earth will be taken to heaven. To quote the Bible,
³Every knee will bow, and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord!².
In short, Hell is not a thing of worship. Anyone who will worship the enemy
of there souls, or his dwelling place, must be insane, or ignorant, or both.
True christians (and many people say they are and are not) do not worship
Hell, ³bargain² with Satan, celebrate Halloween, or otherwise do things
contrary to there very existence. They worship God, spread his good news
(Jesus), and wait for his second coming.
______
David McCabe
mcc### [at] yahoocom
http://homepage.mac.com/davidmccabe/
Jesus loves you!
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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And I bet you even have a good old christian christmas tree up on
his birthday, dontcha..
> I'm a christian, so may I put in my two cents after considering all
> these things? Starting from the beginning...
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Well, I don't know how christion or non-christion it is, but I do put up a
Christmass tree. Do you have a problem with that?
______
David McCabe
mcc### [at] yahoocom
http://homepage.mac.com/davidmccabe/
Jesus loves you!
> And I bet you even have a good old christian christmas tree up on
> his birthday, dontcha..
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