Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> nemesis wrote:
> > The fact is that I don't care anymore.  Let Disney rewrite history and
> > Bird cite his own family inspirations for a plot that resembles so much
> > that of a mature comic book classic...
>
> Sounds like *your* motivation is to call Bird a liar, not to publish facts.

My motivation was to point out the similarities.  Perhaps I went to far by going
for "inspiration" rather than just plainly pointing them out.  This thread
however got to my nerves and I discounted on Bird.  though he deserves...

> Now that you point it out, sure, there are some
> similarities, primarily the "superheros are disliked and outlawed." But that
> happens in a number of movies. Batman and Hancock and Star Trek

There was no plot like that before Watchmen.  None at all.  A critic hailed it
as Alan Moore's obituary for the whole super-hero concept.

> Mysterious island is a kind of obvious place to put out-of-the-way evil for
> land-dwelling species. Citation: at least three or four Bond movies, for
> example, as well as King Kong.

Yes, Bond is a reference in both The Incredibles and Watchmen.  Watchmen's
Adrian Veidt was a caped crusader until retiring and becoming a wealthy
businessman.  His early-Bond villain attire is noted, like his lynx pet and
enjoyment of ancient civilizations.  Very Dr. No.

> The
> whole plot device wouldn't have worked if the villain was taken to be a hero
> because of what he did. In Watchmen he makes a truly dangerous thing in
> order to save the world without taking credit, while in Incredibles he makes
> a supposedly harmless thing in order to take the credit for defeating it.

I didn't say it was straight similar.  I said both did it to feel heroic about
the act of saving the world.  Feeling heroic about it doesn't require publicity
about it.

That's not the only plot twist The Incredibles got to get a plot similar yet
different:  they also had, as you note below, real super-beings rather than the
strong, but humanized masked crime fighters.  I also mentioned that the only
super-being in Watchmen doesn't care about mankind.

> That the evil device was also based on a squid isn't really surprising
> either. Gee, think Watchmen took the idea from Jules Verne?

Yes, but the point is:  why The Incredibles had copy-cat all these same choices
of staple fantasy/scifi literature as Watchmen?

> If you're going to compare two plots, you have to compare all the major
> points, not just the ones that match.

> Watchmen: there's a hunt for the bad guy. Incredibles: there isn't.

Come again?

> Watchmen: they're normal people. Incredibles: they aren't.

Most obvious deviating plot.  Watchmen set out to be a "realistic" super hero
comic book.  No such need in an animation.

> Watchmen: lots of internal moral conflict. Incredibles: little to none.
> Watchmen: Rape. Incredibles: No rape.

Family movie.

> Watchmen: Prison break.  Incredibles: No prison break.

Sure there's a prison break in Incredibles.

> Watchmen: Cancer.  Incredibles: No cancer.

What about that mutating kid?  Sure does not sound healthy in the long term...
:P

> Watchmen: Mars.  Incredibles: No mars.

Mars is up there. ;)

> Watchmen: Thermonuclear annihilation. Incredibles: No nuclear bombs.

No bombs detonated in Watchmen, thanks to Veidt's intervention.  One bomb
detonated by Bomb Voyage in Incredibles.

> Watchmen: Bad guy gets away with it. Incredibles: Bad guy gets caught.

Rorschach's journal is sent to a right-wing publication prior to going to
Ozymandias fortress.  Not seen, but "bad guy" is caught in the act indeed.

> Watchmen: No babies kidnapped.  Incredibles: Babies kidnapped.

Worse: children murdered.

> Watchmen: Good guy main character has secret high tech.
>        Incredibles: Bad guy main character has secret high tech.

"Bad guy" too.

> Watchmen: Disfunctional families. Incredibles: Happily married families.

Sure.  It's a family movie.

> Watchmen: Good guy main character is insane psychopathic killer.
>    Incredibles: No insane psychopathic killers.

Prior to trying with Mr. Incredible, Syndrome had killed several past heroes
while bettering Omnidroid.  That's pretty psychopathic to me.

> Watchmen: Bad guy motivated by love for humanity.
>    Incredibles: Bad guy motivated by hubris and vengeance.
> Watchmen: Good guy motivated by fear.
>    Incredibles: Good guy motivated by boredom.

I never said The Incredibles to be as deep as Watchmen.  It's the opposite, a
light, family-geared, comic rather than realist take on the very same themes of
Watchmen.  You just listed all the contrasting choices Pixar opted to uncover
the Watchmen main plot.  They also mixed enough James Bond and Fantastic Four
and diverged a lot in the original plot to dismiss any further relations.

There's no bad guy in Watchmen, just human beings and dubious moral choices.

Ozymandias may not have been motivated solely by a love for humanity or the
desire to see a unified Earth:  like all the other characters, other motives of
sexual or egomaniac nature may drive him.  He resented The Comedian waking him
up to the uselessness of puerile heroism.  Still, he sets as his main goal
through years to come to do exactly what Captain Metropolis says in that same
episode:  "Who's going to save Earth?"  He was still fantasizing of being a
hero, despite the seriousness and larger scale of the plan.

> To me, they seem like completely different movies,

Watchmen is not a movie.  The movie based on Watchmen sucks like any Hollywood
shallow and puerile take on a serious subject matter.  It sucks a bit less than
Hancock.  There are none of the multilayered meanings, self-referencing forms,
crucial side-stories, homages to old comic books, or human emotion from the
book.

The finale is also very different from the comic book and the long fight with a
villainous Ozymandias completely unnecessary and dork.  He has no super-powers
as the movie pictures it.  It also completely ruined him as he's seen as a
flat, villainesque hero in bad rubber Batman suit and having The Flash speed...

> with different moods,
> morals, plots, motivations, and environments. I wouldn't have a problem
> believing that Incredibles wasn't particularly inspired by Watchmen. It's
> certainly not a retelling of the story in any sense.

Let's tell a very brief plot, shall we?

In the past, super-heroes were abound.  Until the day their popularity fades
among the public and they are ruled out by a government act.  A few years
later, some of them are living normal lifes, some of them still in undercover
activities.  One of them still in activity discovers a malign plan hiding on an
Island and is killed.  One of his old hero fellows begin investigating and is
led to believe there's a conspiracy to kill super heroes.  He's caught and is
tortured.  Some of his fellows go on to infiltrate and release him.  They then
realize the plan of the villain to be a hero by faking an alien attack with a
huge monocular, tentacled monster.

The Incredibles or Watchmen?  your choice...

> I bet with enough work you could say that the Matrix has as many
> similarities to Incredibles as Watchmen does.

I'll leave you to try your hand at those.

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