fabien Henon <fab### [at] caramailcom> wrote:
>>   By any chance you are not using KDE?
>> 
> Yes I am

  How did I guess that?-)
  That explains it.

  There's a checkbutton somewhere in the KControl panel which says something
about making programs to use the same color scheme as defined in the KDE
settings.
  For some reason having this option checked messes up the colors of
emacs 21.*. Unchecking it solves the problem.

  You shouldn't have been that eager to delete everything, but should have
consulted first.
  I am using KDE as well, and automatic syntax coloring in emacs works
perfectly here.

-- 
#macro N(D)#if(D>99)cylinder{M()#local D=div(D,104);M().5,2pigment{rgb M()}}
N(D)#end#end#macro M()<mod(D,13)-6mod(div(D,13)8)-3,10>#end blob{
N(11117333955)N(4254934330)N(3900569407)N(7382340)N(3358)N(970)}//  - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

In article <3deb2fa1@news.povray.org> , Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg>  wrote:

>   You shouldn't have been that eager to delete everything, but should have
> consulted first.

A true application of the 21st century has to be usable without a degree in
computer science.  Otherwise it is only a geek toy, but not an application.

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> A true application of the 21st century has to be usable without a degree in
> computer science.  Otherwise it is only a geek toy, but not an application.

  Well, I don't think that unchecking an option in a graphical windowing
system needs a degree in computer science.
  Granted, it can be pretty difficult to find that this is what is causing
the problem, but I don't see any reason why a degree in computer science
would make it any easier in this case to find it.

  In fact, I think that in this particular case the problem is not that
emacs is not user-friendly, but the contrary: It's trying to be *too*
user-friendly, by letting itself to be affected by the KDE settings.
Perhaps they didn't test this feature well enough to realize that it
messes up the color settings in a way which is not desirable.

  (Actually I have seen some poorly-done freeware windows programs where
the problem is the opposite: They don't use the system's default colors
but define their own instead, *assuming* that the default colors are the
default ones, ie they gray shades etc. This results in the GUI of the
program being a mess of colors, somewhere being according to the system
settings and somewhere being the programs own colors, and it looks horrible.)

-- 
#macro N(D)#if(D>99)cylinder{M()#local D=div(D,104);M().5,2pigment{rgb M()}}
N(D)#end#end#macro M()<mod(D,13)-6mod(div(D,13)8)-3,10>#end blob{
N(11117333955)N(4254934330)N(3900569407)N(7382340)N(3358)N(970)}//  - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
> Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> 
>>A true application of the 21st century has to be usable without a degree in
>>computer science.  Otherwise it is only a geek toy, but not an application.
> 
> 
>   Well, I don't think that unchecking an option in a graphical windowing
> system needs a degree in computer science.
>   Granted, it can be pretty difficult to find that this is what is causing
> the problem, but I don't see any reason why a degree in computer science
> would make it any easier in this case to find it.
> 
>   In fact, I think that in this particular case the problem is not that
> emacs is not user-friendly, but the contrary: It's trying to be *too*
> user-friendly, by letting itself to be affected by the KDE settings.
> Perhaps they didn't test this feature well enough to realize that it
> messes up the color settings in a way which is not desirable.
In that case, emacs is not user-friendly but unobstrusive to the system 
settings.
By user-friendly I meant when you don't have to search for more than 10 
seconds for a specific command, button. In other words : When you know 
where to look and when you don't have to tamper with the software.

I come from a M$ world. Actually, I work on W2000 softwares all day 
long. I think that one of Windows strengths is its user-friendliness 
(even though that means losing much of the customisation that Linux 
has). In order to compete with windows and gain even more popularity 
among new users or ex-Windowers, Linux will have to get more and more 
user-friendly software.
Tell a Linux newbie that (s)he will have to tweak into the system to 
make it work to his needs, you are likely to put them off.
Of course, once you are used to the system, it's a pleasure to tamper 
with it and go into its entrails.

A program is meant to do something with and should make itself forgotten.

The point is that emacs can do (too) many things, and in its diversity, 
you have to customize it (or should I say develop it) to make it work 
for your purpose.


Besides, the only reason I wanted to install emacs was to find out why 
it appeals to some users and if I could get new ideas. I never intended 
to use it for writing a script.


Fabien H
> 
>   (Actually I have seen some poorly-done freeware windows programs where
> the problem is the opposite: They don't use the system's default colors
> but define their own instead, *assuming* that the default colors are the
> default ones, ie they gray shades etc. This results in the GUI of the
> program being a mess of colors, somewhere being according to the system
> settings and somewhere being the programs own colors, and it looks horrible.)
>

Post a reply to this message

fabien Henon wrote:
>> Steve wrote:
>> But dont' get any ideas, I'm still going to use emacs forever:-)
>> 
> What a shame :(

From your other posts it seems like completely frustrated about Emacs
and I fully agree that Emacs sucks with respect to configuration. I'm
using Emacs for more than five years now and still I'm having big problems
to find out how I can change something or how I can do something for the
first time.

However, I also agree with Steve that I will probably use Emacs forever
-- also for writing povray scenes. This is not the case because Emacs is
the best editor to write povray code, but because Emacs is the editor I
use to write programs in C,C++, and Java, LaTeX and Lilypond files, 
E-Mails and newsgroup articles. It's the editor I know. (Besides that
it's also a kind of operating system because it runs a things like
newsreader and tetris.)

The existence of people like me does not mean that Pyvon is useless.
I appreciate your efforts because I know that there are a lot of others
who are not familiar with Emacs. If such a person wants to use Povray,
it would be a pity if he or she would be scared away by Emacs. A nice
graphical interface - or more precisely a good editor that is tailored 
to Povray - has been a great lack in the past on unix-like systems.

As I wouldn't recommend my Mom to use LaTeX to write a letter, I would
recommend a newbie to Linux and Povray to use Emacs for their first
scenes. Nevertheless I'm using LaTeX and Emacs, but finally the fact
that you have the choice is great IMO.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

fabien Henon <fab### [at] caramailcom> wrote:
> has). In order to compete with windows and gain even more popularity 
> among new users or ex-Windowers, Linux will have to get more and more 
> user-friendly software.

  This is a double-edged blade. From the Windows world we can see why.
  When people are not forced to learn to use their computers, they can use
it more easily and start doing what they need to do right away, with a minimal
amount of practice. This is good.
  However, it has a drawback: When things go wrong, the user is completely
clueless and does not know what to do. His work stops and he is helpless.
This happens even with the most minor problems. They need to ask for help
(although it's often something they could fix in 5 seconds if they just knew
how to). In the worst case he will be spending money and time just because
of minor problems (eg. by sending the computer to the store to be "fixed").

  So it has two sides.

-- 
#macro N(D)#if(D>99)cylinder{M()#local D=div(D,104);M().5,2pigment{rgb M()}}
N(D)#end#end#macro M()<mod(D,13)-6mod(div(D,13)8)-3,10>#end blob{
N(11117333955)N(4254934330)N(3900569407)N(7382340)N(3358)N(970)}//  - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

Thomas Willhalm wrote:
> fabien Henon wrote:
> 
>>>Steve wrote:
>>>But dont' get any ideas, I'm still going to use emacs forever:-)
>>>
>>
>>What a shame :(
> 
> 
> From your other posts it seems like completely frustrated about Emacs
> and I fully agree that Emacs sucks with respect to configuration. I'm
> using Emacs for more than five years now and still I'm having big problems
> to find out how I can change something or how I can do something for the
> first time.
> 
> However, I also agree with Steve that I will probably use Emacs forever
> -- also for writing povray scenes. This is not the case because Emacs is
> the best editor to write povray code, but because Emacs is the editor I
> use to write programs in C,C++, and Java, LaTeX and Lilypond files, 
> E-Mails and newsgroup articles. It's the editor I know. (Besides that
> it's also a kind of operating system because it runs a things like
> newsreader and tetris.)
> 
> The existence of people like me does not mean that Pyvon is useless.
> I appreciate your efforts because I know that there are a lot of others
> who are not familiar with Emacs. If such a person wants to use Povray,
> it would be a pity if he or she would be scared away by Emacs. A nice
> graphical interface - or more precisely a good editor that is tailored 
> to Povray - has been a great lack in the past on unix-like systems.
> 
> As I wouldn't recommend my Mom to use LaTeX to write a letter, I would
> recommend a newbie to Linux and Povray to use Emacs for their first
> scenes.
I guess you meant that you would *not* recommend a newbie to Linux and 
Povray to use Emacs.

  Nevertheless I'm using LaTeX and Emacs, but finally the fact
> that you have the choice is great IMO.
> 
> Thomas
>

Post a reply to this message

In article <3deb3124@news.povray.org>,
 "Thorsten Froehlich" <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:

> A true application of the 21st century has to be usable without a degree in
> computer science.  Otherwise it is only a geek toy, but not an application.

Emacs is of most use for people who have a Computer Science degree. 
It'll never be a general application, but it can be an incredibly 
powerful tool.

-- 
Christopher James Huff <cja### [at] earthlinknet>
http://home.earthlink.net/~cjameshuff/
POV-Ray TAG: chr### [at] tagpovrayorg
http://tag.povray.org/

Post a reply to this message

fabien Henon wrote:
> Thomas Willhalm wrote:
>> As I wouldn't recommend my Mom to use LaTeX to write a letter, I would
>> recommend a newbie to Linux and Povray to use Emacs for their first
>> scenes.
> I guess you meant that you would *not* recommend a newbie to Linux and
> Povray to use Emacs.

yep

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

Some ideas for pyvon.

Projects... 

When I'm doing a pov scene, I end up with many different files. 
A project managment thing, so that no matter what file I'm in the main one 
can be rendered, and / or  this file only as well.

That is all I can think of at the moment.

Fran.

fabien Henon wrote:

> Things changed :
> - Insert menus are now read interactively : You can put whatever you
> want in the Insert directory. You can edit it the way you want.
> 
> - fixed a bug with the editor background
> 
> - added right-click menu ( for copy, cut, paste, insert). -> If you have
> any other ideas of what to add there .... Let me know. There is still
> plenty of room
> 
> - added a popup that shows up when the user attempts to save a file in a
> folder where (s)he has no writing permissions.
> 
> 
> 
> http://pyvon.sourceforge.net
> 
> 
> Fabien HENON

Post a reply to this message