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On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:33:33 -0500, John VanSickle wrote:
> And if you institute honest government
I don't believe there is such a thing, personally. All government is
dishonest to some extent.
Jim
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On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:03:16 -0500, Warp wrote:
> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospam com> wrote:
>> The fact that it is more than just throwing money at the problem of
>> world hunger doesn't mean we shouldn't try. I don't believe that's
>> what you're trying to say, though.
>
> The current aid model just doesn't work, that's what I'm saying. It's
> only alleviating the symptoms slightly and temporarily, while making the
> underlying problem worse, increasing dependency of the poor nations on
> this aid and killing local entrepreneurship. Thinking that "50 billion
> dollars a year will solve world hunger in 20 years" is naive and just
> doesn't work.
Agreed, but in the proposal listed, there wasn't a lot of detail - it
could well have been suggesting not just charity (ie, "give them some
food", but actually try to affect some change.) There just wasn't enough
detail in the proposed solution about how the money was intended to do
that.
> And with this I'm not saying that poor nations should not be helped
> at all.
Honestly, I would've been surprised if that *had* been what you were
saying. :-)
Jim
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If you'd like a small taste of what it's like to try and feed your family in the
places in the world that suffer starvation, try this simulation:
http://www.3rdworldfarmer.com/
The problem is indeed complicated. I do suggest you try the simulation--see how
many times your family starves before you can make it work.
Another problem not yet addressed is the "brain drain." Even if you are able to
provide education, when someone in these nations is given an opportunity, they
will often leave and go to more stable countries. The result is that those who
obtain education and might have been able to help the nation tend to leave, and
never return.
History is also a large obstacle. In many nations, the presence of Westerners
is not a welcome one. The long history of colonialism and Western
ethno-centrism has a left a deep scar on much of the "third-world". Even
outright charitable gifts are suspect, and more complicated endeavors are even
less trusted.
Famine is rarely caused by drought or the inability to produce food, because
people settle in places where food is available. Famine is caused by war,
corruption, and other forms of societal injustice. Unfortunately these
problems are far more complicated, and there is no universal answer for all of
them.
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Kirk Andrews wrote:
> If you'd like a small taste of what it's like to try and feed your family in the
> places in the world that suffer starvation, try this simulation:
>
> http://www.3rdworldfarmer.com/
>
>
> The problem is indeed complicated. I do suggest you try the simulation--see how
> many times your family starves before you can make it work.
>
> Another problem not yet addressed is the "brain drain." Even if you are able to
> provide education, when someone in these nations is given an opportunity, they
> will often leave and go to more stable countries. The result is that those who
> obtain education and might have been able to help the nation tend to leave, and
> never return.
>
> History is also a large obstacle. In many nations, the presence of Westerners
> is not a welcome one. The long history of colonialism and Western
> ethno-centrism has a left a deep scar on much of the "third-world". Even
> outright charitable gifts are suspect, and more complicated endeavors are even
> less trusted.
>
> Famine is rarely caused by drought or the inability to produce food, because
> people settle in places where food is available. Famine is caused by war,
> corruption, and other forms of societal injustice. Unfortunately these
> problems are far more complicated, and there is no universal answer for all of
> them.
Actually, shortages of natively-produced food are generally caused by
environmental conditions. Political conditions, however, deprive the
people of the ability to import food from elsewhere.
The only genuinely human-induced famines (and the only famines to strike
industrialized nations) occurred in communist nations, whether due to
the sheer incompetence of the communist system (China's Great Leap
Forward starved millions) or malice of communist leaders (Lenin
purposefully starved millions of people).
A review of preindustrial history reveals that in any given locale there
was a famine about seven times per century, with the average famine
lasting 1.5 years, and famines were such common affairs that only
exceptionally bad ones were given much mention. Until industrial times,
people were generally taxed within an inch of their lives, and so they
were dependent on the next harvest; if that failed, the chances of
survival were dim.
Even nowadays, a few times every century, the local conditions cause the
crops to fail here and there. Droughts in the American midwest, for
instance, have caused the harvests there to be sub-optimal more than
once during my adult life. But the difference now is that those farmers
can buy food produced in other areas, and therefore aren't screwed.
Regards,
John
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John VanSickle wrote:
> The only genuinely human-induced famines (and the only famines to strike
> industrialized nations) occurred in communist nations, whether due to
> the sheer incompetence of the communist system (China's Great Leap
> Forward starved millions) or malice of communist leaders (Lenin
> purposefully starved millions of people).
Saying "only" is a stretch.
Recently there was a "famine" in Niger. There was no real shortage of
food. Plenty of food was available, but it was unaffordable:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/famine/story/0,12128,1540214,00.html
Niger is anything but a communist country.
--
Do Not Attempt to Traverse a Chasm in Two Leaps...
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
anl
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Mueen Nawaz wrote:
> John VanSickle wrote:
>> The only genuinely human-induced famines (and the only famines to strike
>> industrialized nations) occurred in communist nations, whether due to
>> the sheer incompetence of the communist system (China's Great Leap
>> Forward starved millions) or malice of communist leaders (Lenin
>> purposefully starved millions of people).
>
> Saying "only" is a stretch.
>
> Recently there was a "famine" in Niger. There was no real shortage of
> food. Plenty of food was available, but it was unaffordable:
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/famine/story/0,12128,1540214,00.html
>
> Niger is anything but a communist country.
Well, I stand corrected; the only cases of human-induced *mass
starvation* occurred in nations claiming to follow some form of Marxism.
As for the people in Niger, I am not quite persuaded (especially by an
article claiming that the UN and France favor free market solutions to
anything) that any genuinely free market is the primary cause of the
situation there.
Regards,
John
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John VanSickle wrote:
> Mueen Nawaz wrote:
>> John VanSickle wrote:
>>> The only genuinely human-induced famines (and the only famines to strike
>>> industrialized nations) occurred in communist nations, whether due to
>>> the sheer incompetence of the communist system (China's Great Leap
>>> Forward starved millions) or malice of communist leaders (Lenin
>>> purposefully starved millions of people).
>>
>> Saying "only" is a stretch.
>>
>> Recently there was a "famine" in Niger. There was no real shortage of
>> food. Plenty of food was available, but it was unaffordable:
>>
>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/famine/story/0,12128,1540214,00.html
>>
>> Niger is anything but a communist country.
>
> Well, I stand corrected; the only cases of human-induced *mass
> starvation* occurred in nations claiming to follow some form of Marxism.
>
The Great Hunger in 19th century Ireland?
Although the importance of the human factor there is a point of debate.
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andrel nous apporta ses lumieres en ce 2007/12/04 18:46:
> The Great Hunger in 19th century Ireland?
> Although the importance of the human factor there is a point of debate.
Here, the human factor is puting to much reliance on a single crop. If anything
make that particuliar crop fail you get a famine. In this case, it was a fungal
infection that destroyed a potato monoculture. That monoculture was made up of
effective "clones", or single strain, as you plant potato chunks frome the
previous crop, and the original stock came from a single location. The infection
is a natural ocurance, but the monoculture is a strictly human factor.
--
Alain
-------------------------------------------------
You know you've been raytracing too long when a co-worker nearly kills himself
over losing an hour's worth of work after a computer crash, and you just calmly
shrug your shoulders and say, "Is that all?"
Taps a.k.a. Tapio Vocadlo
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andrel wrote:
> John VanSickle wrote:
>> Mueen Nawaz wrote:
>>> John VanSickle wrote:
>>>> The only genuinely human-induced famines (and the only famines to
>>>> strike
>>>> industrialized nations) occurred in communist nations, whether due to
>>>> the sheer incompetence of the communist system (China's Great Leap
>>>> Forward starved millions) or malice of communist leaders (Lenin
>>>> purposefully starved millions of people).
>>>
>>> Saying "only" is a stretch.
>>>
>>> Recently there was a "famine" in Niger. There was no real
>>> shortage of
>>> food. Plenty of food was available, but it was unaffordable:
>>>
>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/famine/story/0,12128,1540214,00.html
>>>
>>> Niger is anything but a communist country.
>>
>> Well, I stand corrected; the only cases of human-induced *mass
>> starvation* occurred in nations claiming to follow some form of Marxism.
>>
> The Great Hunger in 19th century Ireland?
> Although the importance of the human factor there is a point of debate.
Indeed. The Irish had become heavily dependent on potatoes, which were
wiped out by a blight. This led to both a shortage of food and a
shortage of money to buy food (since they would have gotten any money
they would have had by selling potatoes). A lot of Irish starved, and a
lot went to the United States.
I do recall reading that the English took steps to withhold grain from
the Irish in order to make the problem worse, but I'd want to
investigate that further before arriving at any conclusions. In any
event, the chief cause of the starvation was a major crop failure.
An economist named Henry Hazlitt wrote an interesting book on poverty,
and in it he observed that we have become so accustomed to our own
prosperity that we look on the poor nations as being exceptional, when
in fact it is Western prosperity that, from the historical perspective,
is the exceptional situation.
The Irish of the Potato Famine were poor for the exact same reason that
countless societies, for the overwhelming majority of human history,
have been poor; the inability of the populace to reliably produce
sufficient wealth to live at a higher standard.
Regards,
John
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news: 4755de2c$1@news.povray.org...
> Well, I stand corrected; the only cases of human-induced *mass starvation*
> occurred in nations claiming to follow some form of Marxism.
See the British blockade of Germany in WW1
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/firstworldwar/spotlights/blockade.htm
Another example would be the mass starvation in North Vietnam in 1945 (1
million dead), caused by a combination of bad rice harvest, widespread food
pillaging by the Japanese occupation forces and the US blockade.
G.
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