somebody wrote:

> It's not really the size but the nature of the development. (Visual) IDE's
> save a lot of time and effort with the tedious, design related (be it DB or
> GUI), "non-coding" type tasks.

I use a text editor to edit my source, a CLI tool for version control, 
the compiler itself tracks source dependencies, I use Glade for GUI 
design, and so on. It's a "development environment", but it isn't 
"integrated".

> And it's hard to draw the line nowadays
> between IDE's and programmers' editors. Syntax highlighting used to be an
> IDE job, now every notepad replacement does it. Same for code folding, maybe
> to a lesser degree. Refectoring is probably next. As both IDEs and editors
> get more complex, today's IDE becomes tomorrow's editor.

Yeah, I got that feeling also.

> Use what's right for the job, instead of following the hype.

That's surely good advice for anything! :-)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On 02/27/10 02:20, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> 1. Expert programmers using powerful programming languages don't need an
> IDE. (Alternatively, "if you need an IDE, you're a bad programmer or
> you're using an inferior language".)

	I think all expert programmers use IDE's. They just don't call them that.


-- 
Depend on the rabbit's foot if you will, but remember, it didn't help
the rabbit.

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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> OK, so apart from syntax hilighting, what does an IDE actually do?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Visual_Studio#Features

> 1. Expert programmers using powerful programming languages don't need an 
> IDE. (Alternatively, "if you need an IDE, you're a bad programmer or 
> you're using an inferior language".)

They may not need an IDE to code, or perhaps to debug. But an IDE does more 
than just the code. Hence the "integrated" part. It draws forms, generates 
code, lets you edit database schemas, lets you generate code to easily 
access your database schema from code, runs tests, checks code in and out of 
the repository, generates documentation, packages for distribution, etc.

> 2. Large systems require an IDE. 

The IDE in big projects does the parts that aren't code, like drawing 
pictures of the over-all flow of data through the 15 different programs that 
may or may not touch it between source and destination.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   The question in today's corporate environment is not
   so much "what color is your parachute?" as it is
   "what color is your nose?"

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>> OK, so apart from syntax hilighting, what does an IDE actually do?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Visual_Studio#Features

...so an IDE is a text editor, debugger, profiler, UI painter, VC 
interface and doc-gen tool, except that it's one program instead of several?

> They may not need an IDE to code, or perhaps to debug. But an IDE does 
> more than just the code. Hence the "integrated" part.

Mmm, right.

> It draws forms, 
> generates code, lets you edit database schemas, lets you generate code 
> to easily access your database schema from code, runs tests, checks code 
> in and out of the repository, generates documentation, packages for 
> distribution, etc.

I've seen IDEs do some of this, but other items sound surprising to me.

For example, I've seen IDEs that can generate pages of useless 
boilerplate that you don't want at the touch of a button, but I've never 
seen an IDE that can write *useful* code for you. Certainly I've never 
seen an IDE write GUI code, and I've never seen an IDE that has any 
functionallity of any kind even slightly related to database access.

I also haven't personally seen an IDE that can handle version control - 
although it seems like an obvious and easy feature to add, so I can 
believe that one.

>> 2. Large systems require an IDE. 
> 
> The IDE in big projects does the parts that aren't code, like drawing 
> pictures of the over-all flow of data through the 15 different programs 
> that may or may not touch it between source and destination.

That sounds more like a CASE tool. (Does anybody still use those?)

I think the main contention is that certain languages (e.g. Java) are so 
verbose and require so much boilerplate code that you need an IDE to 
autogenerate some of it for you just to stay sane. The argument then 
goes that if your language doesn't suck so much that you need to write 
so much cruft in the first place, you don't need an IDE. I am not 
entirely convinced by this argument.

Every IDE I've ever used has made my job harder, not easier. Then again, 
maybe they just means that an IDE is overkill for small projects.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> OK, so apart from syntax hilighting, what does an IDE actually do?
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Visual_Studio#Features
> 
> ...so an IDE is a text editor, debugger, profiler, UI painter, VC 
> interface and doc-gen tool, except that it's one program instead of 
> several?

An IDE is an integrated development environment. I offered a list of example 
features that an IDE might integrate. It doesn't mean it's all one program. 
It doesn't mean that all IDEs have that particular list of features.

> For example, I've seen IDEs that can generate pages of useless 
> boilerplate that you don't want at the touch of a button, but I've never 
> seen an IDE that can write *useful* code for you. Certainly I've never 
> seen an IDE write GUI code, and I've never seen an IDE that has any 
> functionallity of any kind even slightly related to database access.

Well, go download one. ;-)

> I also haven't personally seen an IDE that can handle version control - 
> although it seems like an obvious and easy feature to add, so I can 
> believe that one.

Well, go download one. Visual Studio 2008 is free and pretty much 
top-of-the-line, altho the free one integrates fewer tools.

> That sounds more like a CASE tool. (Does anybody still use those?)

Sure. And if you integrate it into your development environment, what do you 
have?

> goes that if your language doesn't suck so much that you need to write 
> so much cruft in the first place, you don't need an IDE. I am not 
> entirely convinced by this argument.

It's a decent argument, but it sounds like it's being made by someone who 
thinks "development" means "coding." Boilerplate has nothing to do with 
ensuring that unit tests run before you check in the code, nor with making 
sure that the right version of the documentation is distributed with the 
release you pressed to the disk.

> Every IDE I've ever used has made my job harder, not easier. Then again, 
> maybe they just means that an IDE is overkill for small projects.

Or your IDE sucks.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   The question in today's corporate environment is not
   so much "what color is your parachute?" as it is
   "what color is your nose?"

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>> ...so an IDE is a text editor, debugger, profiler, UI painter, VC 
>> interface and doc-gen tool, except that it's one program instead of 
>> several?
> 
> An IDE is an integrated development environment. I offered a list of 
> example features that an IDE might integrate. It doesn't mean it's all 
> one program. It doesn't mean that all IDEs have that particular list of 
> features.

Sure. But the saliant point is, an IDE is something that integrates 
several features /such as/ the above into something which is notionally 
a single "product"?

> Well, go download one. Visual Studio 2008 is free and pretty much 
> top-of-the-line, altho the free one integrates fewer tools.

Hold on, let me check...

...yeah, thought so. It's already installed on my home PC. (I attempted 
learning C++ a while back, remember?)

>> That sounds more like a CASE tool. (Does anybody still use those?)
> 
> Sure. And if you integrate it into your development environment, what do 
> you have?

Heh. Roses are Rational...

>> goes that if your language doesn't suck so much that you need to write 
>> so much cruft in the first place, you don't need an IDE. I am not 
>> entirely convinced by this argument.
> 
> It's a decent argument, but it sounds like it's being made by someone 
> who thinks "development" means "coding." Boilerplate has nothing to do 
> with ensuring that unit tests run before you check in the code, nor with 
> making sure that the right version of the documentation is distributed 
> with the release you pressed to the disk.

There are all sorts of tools I can think of which can do these things. 
But they're not "integrated". You'd have to set them all up one at a time.

>> Every IDE I've ever used has made my job harder, not easier. Then 
>> again, maybe they just means that an IDE is overkill for small projects.
> 
> Or your IDE sucks.

They tell us that Borland JBuilder and Microsoft VisualStudio J++ are 
supposed to be the best of the best. To me, they both seemed slow and 
buggy. (That was a while ago, obviously.)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Sure. But the saliant point is, an IDE is something that integrates 
> several features /such as/ the above into something which is notionally 
> a single "product"?

Yes.

> ...yeah, thought so. It's already installed on my home PC. (I attempted 
> learning C++ a while back, remember?)

Well, now yo uknow, then.

> There are all sorts of tools I can think of which can do these things. 
> But they're not "integrated". You'd have to set them all up one at a time.

Yes. You have a development environment, non-integrated.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   The question in today's corporate environment is not
   so much "what color is your parachute?" as it is
   "what color is your nose?"

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On 02/27/10 11:51, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> I also haven't personally seen an IDE that can handle version control -
> although it seems like an obvious and easy feature to add, so I can
> believe that one.

	Really? What IDE's /have/ you seen, then?


-- 
Depend on the rabbit's foot if you will, but remember, it didn't help
the rabbit.

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Neeum Zawan wrote:
> On 02/27/10 11:51, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> I also haven't personally seen an IDE that can handle version control -
>> although it seems like an obvious and easy feature to add, so I can
>> believe that one.
> 
> 	Really? What IDE's /have/ you seen, then?

Borland Turbo Pascal 5.5 for MS DOS (if that even counts as an IDE).

Borland JBuilder.

Microsoft VisualStudio.

So yeah, I haven't used very many...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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> OK, so apart from syntax hilighting, what does an IDE actually do?

TBH syntax highlighting is one of the least useful features of an IDE for 
me.

Things I find most useful:

1) Auto-complete with popup help
2) The debugger
3) The GUI Form designer
4) The red underlining of compiler errors as you're typing (in MS C# IDE)
5) Auto compile/link/run with one keypress
6) "Template" projects for a Windows app

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