Warp wrote:
>   Make a system which automatically builds a "makefile" behind the scenes
> and keeps it up-to-date as the source code changes (ie. by updating all
> the dependencies between files), and you have gone a long way towards an
> IDE.

I use the CMake build system, where you just write this:

add_executable(myraytracer main.cpp spheres.cpp lights.cpp)

...and it handles the dependency mess for you. You don't need an IDE for 
that.


I also use the KDevelop IDE, which does not ever edit the makefile (or 
CMakeLists) for you.

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Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
> I use the CMake build system, where you just write this:

Or QMake. By the time you need this sort of stuff, your program has grown 
wildly out of the norm tho. :-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   The question in today's corporate environment is not
   so much "what color is your parachute?" as it is
   "what color is your nose?"

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Nicolas Alvarez <nic### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> I use the CMake build system, where you just write this:

> add_executable(myraytracer main.cpp spheres.cpp lights.cpp)

> ...and it handles the dependency mess for you. You don't need an IDE for 
> that.

  I said that automatic dependency resolving goes a long way towards an IDE,
I didn't say it's sufficient. I also nowhere said that "you need an IDE if
you want to resolve dependencies automatically".

  (Besides, what is *your* definition of "IDE", if CMake isn't one?)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp wrote:
>   (Besides, what is *your* definition of "IDE", if CMake isn't one?)

CMake is just a new version of make, or a makefile generator, I forget 
which. It's not integrated, and it's not an environment, any more than make 
itself is.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   The question in today's corporate environment is not
   so much "what color is your parachute?" as it is
   "what color is your nose?"

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Warp wrote:
> >   (Besides, what is *your* definition of "IDE", if CMake isn't one?)

> CMake is just a new version of make, or a makefile generator, I forget 
> which. It's not integrated, and it's not an environment, any more than make 
> itself is.

  You said what CMake is/isn't, not what an "IDE" is...

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> Warp wrote:
>>>   (Besides, what is *your* definition of "IDE", if CMake isn't one?)
> 
>> CMake is just a new version of make, or a makefile generator, I forget 
>> which. It's not integrated, and it's not an environment, any more than make 
>> itself is.
> 
>   You said what CMake is/isn't, not what an "IDE" is...

You weren't talking to me. :-)  I wasn't sure you knew what cmake was, so I 
was clarifying that it wasn't an IDE. :-)

I don't consider cmake a development environment. It's one tool that's part 
of some development environments.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   The question in today's corporate environment is not
   so much "what color is your parachute?" as it is
   "what color is your nose?"

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Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> > Warp wrote:
> > >   (Besides, what is *your* definition of "IDE", if CMake isn't one?)
>
> > CMake is just a new version of make, or a makefile generator, I forget
> > which. It's not integrated, and it's not an environment, any more than make
> > itself is.
>
>   You said what CMake is/isn't, not what an "IDE" is...

bash is a pretty good IDE to me.  It integrates/glues all other dev tools
needed. :)

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>> Actually it saves the GUI description as an XML file, which your 
>> program then loads and parses at runtime.
> 
> Yes. As does Visual Studio. And what do you think the boilerplate does 
> there beside "load and parse at runtime" that XML? :-)

Surely it's just 1 line of code? (Unless you want to do something 
special to determine where to find the XML file...)

>> Now, see, to me these kinds of tasks all belong to the set of things 
>> which are "impossible" in the first place, so I guess I don't tend to 
>> think about it. You can't write web browser plugins unless you're a C 
>> programmer, unfortunately.
> 
> Of course you can.

Oh, yeah, I forgot. You could be a C++ programmer. ;-)

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>>> Edit->Advanced->Reformat entire document
>> Wouldn't that just apply the incorrect formatting to the whole document?
> 
> It applies the formatting rules you asked it to apply.

Or rather, it applies the default formatting rules, whatever they happen 
to be for the IDE in question.

> Which would be "the" incorrect formatting?

For example, both JBuilder and VS put the opening bracket of a function 
on the same line as the function declaration, rather than on the next 
line where it belongs. They also indent everything by 8 spaces rather 
than the usual 2. And so on. (I'm not even sure *what* formatting rule 
they apply to if-statements...)

> So you're going to maintain a batch file that first compiles the code 
> needed to parse the video game animations, then the code that writes 
> them out, then runs the animations through that, then put them in the 
> right place?
> 
> Why in the world would you do that when it has already been written for 
> you?

Yeah, if your application was actually that complex, you'd probably use 
make or similar.

> It is if you're doing something small enough. But then, you can live 
> without batch files too if you never type the same command more than twice.
> 
> The advantages of an IDE over a DE is that it's integrated.

OK, fair enough.

Large numbers of people apparently think that it's just infeasible to 
write any code of any kind unless you have an IDE specifically targetted 
at the programming language you're using. But to me, it looks like an 
IDE is only really beneficial if you're actually doing something 
complex. (And, further more, it looks to me that the tipping point is 
when you start writing something more complex than any program I've ever 
attempted in my entire life - so an IDE is probably of little to no use 
to me...)

>>>>> 6) "Template" projects for a Windows app
>>>>
>>>> What does that do?
>>>
>>> Try it! Or at least google it. :-)
>>
>> A human being is far more likely to give a useful overview. 
> 
> You know what a template is in documents, right? Corporate report 
> template? Vacation time reporting template? Request for purchase of 
> networking equipment template?
> 
> Same thing, for code.

Sure. But "Windows app" template? What could possibly be in it?

It's like, you have a template for a purchase request. Or a template for 
a procedure document. But you know what you *don't* have a template for? 
A document. Because, let's face it, what would a template for "a 
document" actually contain?

Similarly, "a Windows application" could be absolutely anything. How do 
you template that?

> I want to write a game. I want to write a windows service. I want to 
> write a new type for a SQL database engine.  I want to build a web 
> application.

Maybe it's because I've never written any of these things, but I can't 
imagine what (for example) two games would have in common. (And hence, 
what you'd put into a template.)

>> I'll just spend an hour not being able to figure out what it's 
>> supposed to be for.
> 
> That's because you never practice the skill, so you never improve at it.

This statement is not falsifiable.

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> I want to write a game.

Actually if you install XNA with VC# then you can go File -> New -> Windows 
Game and then press F5 and you will have running a game skeleton program 
which is very easy to add stuff too.  In fact you can also choose 
"Platformer Starter Kit" as a new project and have a playable platform game 
as a template!  Then go Build -> Publish... and it creates a standalone 
installer to distribute, it doesn't get any easier than this to code games 
on Windows/XBOX!

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