I've been following this story to some extent.  It's just a fascinating 
story.

When I was younger, I used to visit a church (where I met my wife :-) ), and 
there was a little girl there, who at the time was 2 or 3 years old.  Well, 
that was about 20 years ago, and I hadn't heard from any of that family 
until very recently.  The little girl grew up, of course.  Apparently, while 
she was growing up, she noticed certain changes "down there".  Without even 
telling her parents, she went to the doctor.  At some point, I don't know 
exactly when, she found out that she was actually genetically male.  Within 
a few years, it started to become very obvious.  Eventually she had surgery 
to close up what appeared to be a female body cavity, and then changed her 
name and began living as a man, which she always had been to begin with, but 
no one knew it.  "He" is now married.  I have no idea if having children is 
a possibility.

I can't imagine what it would be like to go through something like that.  In 
the above story, the family was accused of horrible, untrue things by some 
members of their church.  They eventually were forced to leave.  Ignorance 
and fear apparently drove them out.  But, having been through that, they all 
seem better for it.  Who wants to live with the ignorant and fearful?  The 
family seems more well-adjusted now, than they were before.

So, it's possible that Caster Semenya is not even aware that she is actually 
male.  What a shock that would be!  If so, I feel sorry for him, since he 
can probably say goodbye to elite sports competition.

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Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
> I've been following this story to some extent.  It's just a fascinating 
> story.
> 
> When I was younger, I used to visit a church (where I met my wife :-) ), and 
> there was a little girl there, who at the time was 2 or 3 years old.  Well, 
> that was about 20 years ago, and I hadn't heard from any of that family 
> until very recently.  The little girl grew up, of course.  Apparently, while 
> she was growing up, she noticed certain changes "down there".  Without even 
> telling her parents, she went to the doctor.  At some point, I don't know 
> exactly when, she found out that she was actually genetically male.  Within 
> a few years, it started to become very obvious.  Eventually she had surgery 
> to close up what appeared to be a female body cavity, and then changed her 
> name and began living as a man, which she always had been to begin with, but 
> no one knew it.  "He" is now married.  I have no idea if having children is 
> a possibility.
> 

Since that sounds mostly physiological and not genetic, children would
just be a matter of having the plumbing correct. I would not even dare
to speculate if that were the case, since any physical disturbance could
have caused more massive internal disorders. I am glad to hear the
gentleman is grown up and happy.

> I can't imagine what it would be like to go through something like that.  In 
> the above story, the family was accused of horrible, untrue things by some 
> members of their church.  They eventually were forced to leave.  Ignorance 
> and fear apparently drove them out.  But, having been through that, they all 
> seem better for it.  Who wants to live with the ignorant and fearful?  The 
> family seems more well-adjusted now, than they were before.
> 

If the families don't get the blame, the doctors will. Because most
people want to believe gender is as simple as XX or XY. No Klinefelter,
no 49,XXXXX, no mosaic genetic structures, no AIS at all. But, the most
common genetic disorders, like 47,XYY don't present with obvious changes
to phenotype.

If wiki is your thing, start with either
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_abnormalities or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersexual but neither are safe for work
unless you work around graphical medical diagrams.

> So, it's possible that Caster Semenya is not even aware that she is actually 
> male.  What a shock that would be!  If so, I feel sorry for him, since he 
> can probably say goodbye to elite sports competition. 
> 
> 

I hate to be a downer on this, but it could be that parents know and she
doesn't. See: John/Joan case by Doctor Money.

And then, after you as either intrigued or sick to your stomach that he
got away with that and caused reassignment surgeries to be common for
any major birth defect over the next 30 years, read up on a guy named
David Reimer, the child in the John/Joan study.

The whole gender in sports thing makes me sick. The medical community on
one side saying that 'if a child has enough hormonally wrong with them,
we should reassign their gender at birth. And if we can get away with
it, never tell the parents or the child.' Meanwhile, society goes on
with the fear and hate of anything too complex to shove into two
separate boxes.



I know, way off on a tangent. Here is hoping the woman is genetically a
woman, and can just show how silly the whole 'his and hers world
records' really are.

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"Sabrina Kilian" <ski### [at] vtedu> wrote in message 
news:4aa7eb4a$1@news.povray.org...
> Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
>
> Since that sounds mostly physiological and not genetic, children would
> just be a matter of having the plumbing correct. I would not even dare
> to speculate if that were the case, since any physical disturbance could
> have caused more massive internal disorders. I am glad to hear the
> gentleman is grown up and happy.

Well, that's my understanding of the issue.  The person in question said it 
was some sort of a chromosomal problem, so it could be more complex, but he 
shows no signs (otherwise) of having any problems.  My wife used to change 
"her" diapers as a baby.  At this point, he is a nice looking young man in 
his early twenties.  But he's keeping his former life a secret, probably 
because most people can't understand it.

> If the families don't get the blame, the doctors will. Because most
> people want to believe gender is as simple as XX or XY. No Klinefelter,
> no 49,XXXXX, no mosaic genetic structures, no AIS at all. But, the most
> common genetic disorders, like 47,XYY don't present with obvious changes
> to phenotype.

At this point in my understanding, I do think it's as simple as XX/XY except 
in the cases of 49,XXXXX etc.  What I mean is that if you are born XY, then 
in my mind, you are male, and if XX, female, regardless of outward 
appearance.  From what I have heard in this situation, the higher ranking 
members of their church held the opposite argument: if you're born with a 
vagina, you're female. As far as "Should you be allowed to compete as female 
if you are XY?"  I would say "No."  And similarly for XX.  In other, very 
rare cases, things get fuzzy.  If you are a male/female chymera, for 
example, I would have no idea where you should compete.

> I hate to be a downer on this, but it could be that parents know and she
> doesn't. See: John/Joan case by Doctor Money.
>
> And then, after you as either intrigued or sick to your stomach that he
> got away with that and caused reassignment surgeries to be common for
> any major birth defect over the next 30 years, read up on a guy named
> David Reimer, the child in the John/Joan study.

Yep.  That's not the first time I've heard of that type of situation. Being 
a fan of the Discovery Channel, I watched one case where a little "boy" was 
born with one testicle, along with female organs.  The parents wanted to 
raise him as a boy (he was XY), but the doctor decided that he knew best, 
and removed the boy's one remaining testicle, making him outwardly female. 
Of course, the parents are suing, as they should in this case.

The case of David Reimer is very sad, if not simply disturbing.  Anyone 
familiar with the "Milgram experiment" can understand how dangerous it can 
be for us to put our blind trust in anyone.

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