>> Then if he really wants a monopoly on the postcard selling market (maybe 
>> he doesn't), he shouldn't put the object in a public place (where anyone 
>> is free to make their own postcard with a camera and printer).
>
> It doesn't work that way.

Any examples where people were successfully prosecuted for doing stuff with 
publically available works and making money from it?

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scott wrote:
> Any examples where people were successfully prosecuted for doing stuff 
> with publically available works and making money from it?

Not offhand, but feel free to look it up yourself.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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scott wrote:
> Any examples where people were successfully prosecuted for doing stuff 
> with publically available works and making money from it?

Oh, actually, yeah. Bands performing music in public. Bars broadcasting 
radio. Even music-on-hold taken off the radio. All kinds of stuff like that.

And the Sony v Betamax suit wasn't won on the grounds that the content was 
broadcast over the air, but that it was fair use. If you started 
distributing those tapes, you'd be in trouble.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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scott wrote:
>>> Then if he really wants a monopoly on the postcard selling market
>>> (maybe he doesn't), he shouldn't put the object in a public place
>>> (where anyone is free to make their own postcard with a camera and
>>> printer).
>>
>> It doesn't work that way.
> 
> Any examples where people were successfully prosecuted for doing stuff
> with publically available works and making money from it?
> 
> 

Yes, http://www.webcitation.org/5iZbZU3o9 or any of the lawsuits against
file sharing websites.

In the USA, and elsewhere*, just because a work is available does not
mean it is okay to copy it. Let's start with an easy example, a book.

Alice the Author writes a book, sells the manuscript to a publisher,
Bob, who buys the right to print that book. That may be in straight
cash, or part of the profit, doesn't matter really. Alice still has his
copyright, because she wrote the book on her time and not as part of a
"work-for-hire". So, now that Bob's company has permission to print that
book, they do. Bob starts selling those books, expecting to make a
profit. Alice might even do a reading from the book for a promotional
tour, or books on tape.

Now, Eve else comes along, buys a copy of the book and takes it to her
own publishing house. She makes some quick copies of the book, and puts
them back on the market at a much lower price. Maybe she makes a
different book on tape, reading the words herself instead of using the
recording of Alice. When Eve got caught doing this, the fines would fly.


What you are describing, the object being publicly available, does not
suddenly invalidate Alice's right to determine how her work is used.
That is what copyright really is. And this works for radio broadcasts as
well. The musician (or copyright house) owns the music, and they are
allowing the station to broadcast it. They are not giving anything away,
but allowing the listeners to hear it without paying a fee.

*I don't know much about international copyright, or copyright laws in
other countries.

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On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 12:01:00 -0400, Sabrina Kilian wrote:

> Alice the Author writes a book, sells the manuscript to a publisher,
> Bob, who buys the right to print that book. That may be in straight
> cash, or part of the profit, doesn't matter really. Alice still has his
> copyright, because she wrote the book on her time and not as part of a
> "work-for-hire".

Except that at least in my experience, the contract for the publishing 
rights includes a transfer of the copyright to the publisher for the 
duration of the print cycle.  That's to prevent the author from going to 
a second publisher and assigning publishing rights to them.

If a publisher makes an investment for publishing a book, they want to 
protect that investment.  Rights (again in my experience) revert to the 
author only when the book is declared out of print by the publisher.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 12:01:00 -0400, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> 
>> Alice the Author writes a book, sells the manuscript to a publisher,
>> Bob, who buys the right to print that book. That may be in straight
>> cash, or part of the profit, doesn't matter really. Alice still has his
>> copyright, because she wrote the book on her time and not as part of a
>> "work-for-hire".
> 
> Except that at least in my experience, the contract for the publishing 
> rights includes a transfer of the copyright to the publisher for the 
> duration of the print cycle.  That's to prevent the author from going to 
> a second publisher and assigning publishing rights to them.
> 
> If a publisher makes an investment for publishing a book, they want to 
> protect that investment.  Rights (again in my experience) revert to the 
> author only when the book is declared out of print by the publisher.
> 
> Jim

I was making up a story where a vague contract, which in my mind
transfered the rights to the work (not the copyright) as a time-limited
exclusive, non-exclusive after some time limit, sub-licensable, and I
didn't even consider if it was a transferable license. The story didn't
need it. I haven't actually seen a contract that was worded such that
complete copyright was transfered from one party to another and then
returned at a set future time. Rights to a copyrighted work, sure, but
never the actual copyright.

So it depends on the contract. In photography, and at the art department
of a certain university, copyright transfers are very rarely done. While
in the engineering departments, students sign a form before enrolling in
freshman classes stating that any code they write for assignments or
using substantial amounts of university equipment is considered
derivative work or is assigned to the school. Every field has it's own
expectations.

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On Sat, 05 Sep 2009 09:16:08 -0400, Sabrina Kilian wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 12:01:00 -0400, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
>> 
>>> Alice the Author writes a book, sells the manuscript to a publisher,
>>> Bob, who buys the right to print that book. That may be in straight
>>> cash, or part of the profit, doesn't matter really. Alice still has
>>> his copyright, because she wrote the book on her time and not as part
>>> of a "work-for-hire".
>> 
>> Except that at least in my experience, the contract for the publishing
>> rights includes a transfer of the copyright to the publisher for the
>> duration of the print cycle.  That's to prevent the author from going
>> to a second publisher and assigning publishing rights to them.
>> 
>> If a publisher makes an investment for publishing a book, they want to
>> protect that investment.  Rights (again in my experience) revert to the
>> author only when the book is declared out of print by the publisher.
>> 
>> Jim
> 
> I was making up a story where a vague contract, which in my mind
> transfered the rights to the work (not the copyright) as a time-limited
> exclusive, non-exclusive after some time limit, sub-licensable, and I
> didn't even consider if it was a transferable license. The story didn't
> need it. I haven't actually seen a contract that was worded such that
> complete copyright was transfered from one party to another and then
> returned at a set future time. Rights to a copyrighted work, sure, but
> never the actual copyright.

Now I need to find my contract, if I still have it.  The first book was 
published in 1994 and declared out of print in 2002 (IIRC), so I may not 
have it any more.  I do remember that there was specifically a clause 
that addressed this issue, because the rights reverted to us (my coauthor 
and I) on declaration by the publisher about it being out of print.

The reason it sticks in mind was that the contract actually had an error 
in it and we had to have a lawyer review it, because the second book was 
being published through a new publisher.  The contract was intended to 
say that if we did another book on the same topic, the original publisher 
had to have the right of first refusal.  But the actual contract didn't 
list our topic, but "Windows 95" (which isn't what our book was about).  
So we didn't inform the first publisher (whom we were unhappy with 
because they didn't do the marketing they said they would) and selected a 
new publisher.  The day the new book was released, we both got a letter 
from the first publisher - declaring the first book out of print.

We were concerned they might try to take legal action against us, but our 
lawyer said that they messed up the original contract and signed it, so 
it's their own fault and they'd have no case, because a contract is all 
about what's written into the contract, not what was *intended* to be put 
in there but wasn't.

> So it depends on the contract. In photography, and at the art department
> of a certain university, copyright transfers are very rarely done. While
> in the engineering departments, students sign a form before enrolling in
> freshman classes stating that any code they write for assignments or
> using substantial amounts of university equipment is considered
> derivative work or is assigned to the school. Every field has it's own
> expectations.

That makes sense to me, and would clearly be a different situation 
entirely. :-)

Jim

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> Yes, http://www.webcitation.org/5iZbZU3o9 or any of the lawsuits against
> file sharing websites.

Lawsuits against file sharing websites are when the original authors/owners 
explicity do NOT give away their work for free.  Of course they are going to 
sue when people then go ahead and copy it.

> In the USA, and elsewhere*, just because a work is available does not
> mean it is okay to copy it.

I meant completely freely available, with the permission of the author.  eg 
when a band or author authorises their song/book/whatever to be distributed 
via the internet or bitTorrent or whatever with no charge/contract.  In that 
case I don't think they would be able to (successfully) sue if someone 
wanted to charge for copying the works.

> Alice the Author writes a book, sells the manuscript to a publisher,
> Bob, who buys the right to print that book. That may be in straight
> cash, or part of the profit, doesn't matter really. Alice still has his
> copyright, because she wrote the book on her time and not as part of a
> "work-for-hire". So, now that Bob's company has permission to print that
> book, they do. Bob starts selling those books, expecting to make a
> profit. Alice might even do a reading from the book for a promotional
> tour, or books on tape.
>
> Now, Eve else comes along, buys a copy of the book and takes it to her
> own publishing house. She makes some quick copies of the book, and puts
> them back on the market at a much lower price. Maybe she makes a
> different book on tape, reading the words herself instead of using the
> recording of Alice. When Eve got caught doing this, the fines would fly.
>
> What you are describing, the object being publicly available,

I meant when the object is publicly available *for free*.  Using your 
example, if Alice decided she would give away free copies of her book to 
anyone who wanted them, or if it was an eBook, freely downloadable from any 
website.  Then Eve comes along and makes her own version (maybe printed in a 
different way, or on a website with some support contract etc) and *sells* 
it for money.  In that case Alice can't go to court and say that she is 
being damaged financially by Eve's actions.

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scott wrote:
> I meant completely freely available, with the permission of the author. 
> eg when a band or author authorises their song/book/whatever to be
> distributed via the internet or bitTorrent or whatever with no
> charge/contract.  In that case I don't think they would be able to
> (successfully) sue if someone wanted to charge for copying the works.
> 

That is not how I understood the argument you were making. I read the
postcard argument up thread as duplicating the postcard itself by means
of a camera and printer. That would be a copyright violation, since you
are copying their picture directly.

I only thought that because you had suggested that radio broadcasts were
being displayed to the public and should have no copyright. Same as a
postcard on display in a public place.

Upon re-reading the discussion, I take it that you meant someone going
out and taking a picture of the same statue. In that case the
photographer could, I think, sell the picture, at least in the USA. US
Code title 17, chapter 1, section 120 covers the copyright of
architectural works that are visible from public spaces. Section 113
covers sculptures or other visual work sold or displayed to the public.
I can't parse 113 this early in the morning to work out all the fine
details, but first glance tells me that is how it works.

IANAL, TINLA

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scott wrote:
> I meant completely freely available, with the permission of the author. 
> eg when a band or author authorises their song/book/whatever to be
> distributed
> via the internet or bitTorrent or whatever with no charge/contract.  In
> that case I don't think they would be able to (successfully) sue if
> someone wanted to charge for copying the works.

There is a LOT of freeware software that is non-redistributable. Or can only
be redistributed if you follow certain terms.

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