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5 Sep 2024 19:24:52 EDT (-0400)
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: The future will be ok!
Date: 29 Jun 2009 20:15:05
Message: <4a495909$1@news.povray.org>
On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 17:08:20 -0700, Tim Attwood wrote:

> CO²

I think you'll find that the (2) should be subscripted. ;-)

<scnr>

Jim


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From: Patrick Elliott
Subject: Re: The future will be ok!
Date: 29 Jun 2009 23:41:01
Message: <4a49894d$1@news.povray.org>
Warp wrote:
> John VanSickle <evi### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
>> The evidence that we have had any significant effect on the planet's 
>> climate is far from conclusive.
> 
>   The significant increase in CO2 emissions by humans in the last 100
> years and the significant increase in CO2 levels in the atmosphere in
> the last 100 years is certainly a heck of a coincidence.
> 
>   I'm prone to think that's like claiming that the most polluted rivers
> in the world being so polluted is just a coincidence and not caused by
> humans.
> 
Haven't you heard. Just saw today on Faux News (Didn't have a choice 
watching it, I was waiting for a cab in the place that does TV repair 
and they had that channel on) the experts are using "old data", and 
tempuratures have actually gone "down" in the last few years! Sigh... 
This is the problem with idiots. They a) don't comprehend trends, b) 
can't comprehend statistics at all (witness William Dumskis' mangling of 
his own math on the odds of random gene expression), and/or c) don't 
quite get that, even if they where right, such a relatively short 
"shift" isn't natural either, and you know... if the average temp each 
year was 80 degrees, it wouldn't matter *at all* if the opposite ends, 
due to unstable weather, was -150 and +200, in places that used to be 
40->120... Mind, that is only if their data is even right, and not the 
equivalent of the same BS they use for say teen pregnancies, or the 
like. You know, ignore 4 states of conservatives with average first 
pregnancy in the 13-15 range, in favor of a few hundred students, in one 
city, 5,000 miles away, which is also mostly far more liberal, then 
claim that it proved "abstinence", when the program has only run on year 
at the school, but they are using 3 years of "data", which actually 
shows an "increase" after the program started, besides. lol

Ok, so, I don't have specifics on such a case, but it "is" the trend. 
Its never comprehensive data, its always cherry picked to support their 
position, while throwing out contrary data, and its "always" focused on 
groups, places, situations, which they "know" they will get data from 
that supports their position. Its faith based science. Decide what you 
want to be true, pray you find the evidence, then only collect, or 
analyze, the data that supports the original premise. And, when it 
doesn't, they try "real" hard to sweep it under the carpet, insists they 
need more time to get better data, and/or lie about what the data 
actually did say. (Just like abstinence programs, the "war on rugs {yes, 
that's intentional, and about as useful}, or the 'controversy' over 
evolution, which they can't even find enough people to support to have 
more names than the number of scientists named Steve that think they are 
total idiots).

But, truth is, most people are not smart or stupid, and are too busy 
looking for their own survival to worry much about who is and isn't. 
Smart people "usually" don't lead, unless they are a serious hang up 
with "needing" to do so, they let someone else take the lead, with the 
promise that, as long as left alone to be smart, the dummy they partner 
with will reap rewards from it. Unfortunately, the people "most likely" 
to want to lead are the sort that "are" stupid. Because, as a rule, 
proven via studies of people at universities, incompetent people, 
overestimate their own skill, knowledge and abilities, to the point of 
imagining themselves right, even in the face of evidence that they are 
dead wrong. They are more likely to insist that you failed them due to 
jealousy, or hate, or persecution, than due to their inability to pass 
the damn test. Smart, competent, people are **very** aware of their own 
limits, to the extent that they will almost "always" underestimate their 
abilities, ideas, solutions, beliefs and/or imagine false dangers from 
possible results of their actions.

If someone is "sure" of something, they are probably not someone you 
should listen to. The more sure they are, unless they can also provide 
"facts" that are "convincing" to prove their certainty, the more likely 
they are to have no actual clue at all about what they are talking 
about. Its why climate denialists are 100% sure they are right, while 
climate experts are, "reasonably sure, based on the evidence, but we 
could be wrong, so we are collecting more data".

-- 
void main () {

     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models, 
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>


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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: The future will be ok!
Date: 29 Jun 2009 23:57:59
Message: <4a498d47@news.povray.org>
Patrick Elliott wrote:
> tempuratures have actually gone "down" in the last few years! Sigh... 

Well, to be fair, on the other hand, a lot of the projections are huge 
variations in the future. It's not like everyone is working with solid data 
and some people are making things up.  Everyone's making up projections, so 
even small variations in what's going on now can modify tremendously the future.

It's not like scientists haven't gone overboard making up projections 
before. See "Nuclear winter".

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Insanity is a small city on the western
   border of the State of Mind.


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From: andrel
Subject: Re: The future will be ok!
Date: 30 Jun 2009 02:18:04
Message: <4A49AE1C.2020109@hotmail.com>
On 30-6-2009 2:08, Tim Attwood wrote:
>>  The significant increase in CO2 emissions by humans in the last 100
>> years and the significant increase in CO2 levels in the atmosphere in
>> the last 100 years is certainly a heck of a coincidence.
> 



> 

> historically, 

much, much less. Simply because there were less people. I am pretty sure 
that if you keep the population at historical levels of a few million 
you can reach an equilibrium.

> they used to burn a lot of wood and coal though.

yes to cook mostly and in the colder regions to keep warm in the winter. 
Burning of fuel was less efficient and I don't know if that compensates 
for increased mobility and use of electricity around the house. My guess 
would be that an average US citizen does burn more carbon than, say, the 
average San or Inuit. I might be brainwashed by extreme left wing 
journalists though.


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From: andrel
Subject: Re: The future will be ok!
Date: 30 Jun 2009 02:22:50
Message: <4A49AF3A.5020005@hotmail.com>
On 30-6-2009 5:57, Darren New wrote:

> It's not like scientists haven't gone overboard making up projections 
> before. See "Nuclear winter".

I might have missed it, but I think we haven't had a nuclear war yet to 
test that one.


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From: Chambers
Subject: Re: The future will be ok!
Date: 30 Jun 2009 03:24:52
Message: <4a49bdc4@news.povray.org>
I would like to formally apologize for referencing a web-comic with such 
a controversial punch-line.  Even if it did make me snort juice up my 
nose :)

-- 
Chambers


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From: scott
Subject: Re: The future will be ok!
Date: 30 Jun 2009 03:41:11
Message: <4a49c197@news.povray.org>
> Well, to be fair, on the other hand, a lot of the projections are huge 
> variations in the future. It's not like everyone is working with solid 
> data and some people are making things up.  Everyone's making up 
> projections, so even small variations in what's going on now can modify 
> tremendously the future.

I wonder if scientists factor in human behaviour changes because on climate 
change reports into their projections? :-)


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From: Invisible
Subject: Re: The future will be ok!
Date: 30 Jun 2009 04:13:11
Message: <4a49c917$1@news.povray.org>
Tim Attwood wrote:
>>  The significant increase in CO2 emissions by humans in the last 100
>> years and the significant increase in CO2 levels in the atmosphere in
>> the last 100 years is certainly a heck of a coincidence.
> 




...which would still mean that humans caused the rise of CO2...


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From: John VanSickle
Subject: Re: The future will be ok!
Date: 30 Jun 2009 07:40:23
Message: <4a49f9a7$1@news.povray.org>
Warp wrote:
> John VanSickle <evi### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
>> The evidence that we have had any significant effect on the planet's 
>> climate is far from conclusive.
> 
>   The significant increase in CO2 emissions by humans in the last 100
> years and the significant increase in CO2 levels in the atmosphere in
> the last 100 years is certainly a heck of a coincidence.

Well, nobody's arguing against that.

What many people are arguing is that the evidence for catastrophic 
anthropogenic global warming is far from conclusive, and that an 
increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide is actually beneficial overall. 
These many people include thousands of scientists with bachelors, 
masters, and doctorate degrees in climatology, computer science, 
physics, chemistry, engineering, and biology.

The idea that there is a consensus among scientists on this issue is false.

Regards,
John


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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: The future will be ok!
Date: 30 Jun 2009 12:10:05
Message: <4a4a38dd$1@news.povray.org>
andrel wrote:
> much, much less. Simply because there were less people. 

I think the problem is not so much the number of people burning stuff as it 
is the mining of carbon in the form of oil and coal that has been buried 
since before humanity arose. No matter how much wood you burn, the forests 
will turn it back into wood. But if you burn 100 forests worth of carbon, 
the one forest nearby will have trouble keeping up.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Insanity is a small city on the western
   border of the State of Mind.


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