Warp wrote:
>   (Another problem with you making the claim, without verifiable sources,
> is that your claim might be *false*. That's the problem with original
> research: It reflects *your* opinion and/or *your* findings, rather than
> the opinion/findings of a wider respectable community of knowlegdeable
> people. An encyclopedia is not a journal where you can publish your own
> findings or opinions. Moreover, you might be *wrong* altogether.)

I'm not making any claims nor finds nor research of any kinds.  I'm just 
pointing out the points where both plots collide.  They both have 
outlawed heroes, a huge squid threat, a suggested plot to kill old 
heroes etc.

There's no original research there, it's only a matter of reading the 
work and enumerating the coincidences between one of the most 
influential comic books ever and a movie about super-heroes...

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nemesis <nam### [at] nospam-gmailcom> wrote:
> I'm not making any claims nor finds nor research of any kinds.  I'm just 
> pointing out the points where both plots collide.

  "A more direct inspiration is the comic book masterpiece Watchmen, by
Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons."

  You didn't say "the plot of The Incredibles resembles the plot of
Watchmen". You are directly making the claim ghat Watchmens was an
inspiration for the plot of The Incredibles. Without any references to
corroborate this claim.

  Even if you had simply pointed out the similarities, that would also
border the line of original research, because you are basically documenting
your own finding, rather than repeating (and thus referencing) what others
have published.

  However, you are not just pointing out the similarities. You are directly
making the claim that one plot was *inspired* by another, without any
actual references that this was indeed so. This would be a dubious practice
even if it was journalism. With an encyclopedia, which should just repeat
common results, it's even worse.

  It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong. An encyclopedia is *not*
a journal to publish your findings.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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nemesis wrote:
> They both have 
> outlawed heroes, a huge squid threat, a suggested plot to kill old 
> heroes etc.

Sounds like The Matrix to me!

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!

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nemesis wrote:
> There are no outlawed heroes nor huge squids in either Batman or the Bible.

Oh, so neither Moses nor Jesus were outlawed heros? Sorry.

> I guess you can't trace a similar parallel between the plots for Matrix 
> and The Incredibles.

I could. It's just not worth the effort of going through it.

> He set out to make a movie about super-heroes.  He had to draw some 
> references.  How about the plot of one of the most acclaimed comic books 
> in the genre?  

In generics, "good guy scoffs at secret admirer, and winds up having to 
defeat admirer's plan to get revenge" is pretty standard fare.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!

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nemesis wrote:
> but the simple idea that the plot is similar to that of Watchmen 
> isn't allowed

But that isn't what you claimed. You claimed it was an inspiration.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!

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Fredrik Eriksson wrote:
> On Sat, 16 May 2009 21:34:53 +0200, nemesis 
> <nam### [at] nospam-gmailcom> wrote:
>>
>> There are no outlawed heroes nor huge squids in either Batman
> 
> Read 'The Dark Knight Returns'.

Yes, I read it at the time it was released, though I was only an 
adolescent and possibly did not get all references.  I just reread it 
now just to be sure:  no outlawed heroes, only retired heroes.

No huge squid terrorizing a city either.

>> or the Bible.
> 
> Read the New Testament.

Sorry, I don't see it.  In particular, this is a discussion about 
super-heroes from american XX century comics and I don't see the 
relevance of that here.

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Warp wrote:
> Chambers <ben### [at] pacificwebguycom> wrote:
>> Publish a paper on it on your website.
> 
>> Then, in Wikipedia, reference that paper.
> 
>> That should satisfy the "no original research" policy just fine.
> 
>   The encyclopedia writer referencing his own work is not much more
> credible than the encyclopedia referencing itself.

I don't think they allow blog entries as reference.  It doesn't matter, 
a reference to the work itself should suffice.  I should point to a 
selling place, like Amazon.

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On Sat, 16 May 2009 16:37:37 -0300, nemesis wrote:

> I don't know how else to state it.

Then don't.  It's unnecessary, and calling a group of people "a bunch of 
nazis" doesn't exactly ingratiate you to them (or to others you're 
trying  to convince).

Jim

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On Sat, 16 May 2009 19:17:04 -0300, nemesis wrote:

> It doesn't matter,
> a reference to the work itself should suffice.

No, it shouldn't.  Because the work itself doesn't say anything about its 
author's development process.  It's an end product.

When you "cherry pick" similarities between two things that seem similar 
to you, of course you're going to find things that are similar.  You 
probably could do the same with The Incredibles and The Brady Bunch, too 
if you worked hard enough at it.

That doesn't mean The Incredibles was based on The Brady Bunch.  Just 
that you found similar plot points.

Jim

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Darren New wrote:
> nemesis wrote:
>> He set out to make a movie about super-heroes.  He had to draw some 
>> references.  How about the plot of one of the most acclaimed comic 
>> books in the genre?  
> 
> In generics, "good guy scoffs at secret admirer, and winds up having to 
> defeat admirer's plan to get revenge" is pretty standard fare.

Yes, and yet despite being this generic, it's not the plot of Watchmen, 
only Incredibles.

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