On 29 Mar 2009 01:42:17 -0400, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>
>Ironically, I read what I wrote again and should clarify that I don't 
>think teens sleeping together causes automobile accidents. ;-)
>

It can if they are driving, I would think.

>
>Well, I'd say that *some* people are really bad at judging low-risk 
>activities.  But why penalize the rest of us for it?
>

Because everyone thinks that they are the exception.

>For example, I tend to talk on the phone when I'm driving to and from the 
>office (which happens about once every 2 weeks these days).  It's 90 
>minutes on the road round-trip and generally a pretty boring drive.
>
>So I'll talk to my mom or my wife while I'm driving home.  They know I'm 
>in the car and paying attention to the traffic around me, and if I don't 
>respond immediately it's because I'm dealing with something.
>
>But I also have an effective way to divide my attention during that 
>drive.  When I get into town, things change, so I tend to get off the 
>phone, but on the freeway it's an entirely different matter.

"tend to get off the phone" Does that mean that sometimes you don't?
>
>> Granted, if you don't realize that trying to type a text message while
>> you drive is dangerous, you're stupid, but...
>

The same could be said for talking on the phone.

After bumping my motorbike into a wall when parking 40 years ago after drinking
2 pints of beer. (The limit was considered to be 3 pints.) I've never driven
after drinking and I like a drink. I also switch my phone off when driving, If
I've left it on by mistake and it rings I ignore it then pull over to check it
when I can.

Have you ever heard anyone saying "I drive better after a couple of drinks"?

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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Stephen wrote:
> 
> Have you ever heard anyone saying "I drive better after a couple of drinks"?
> 

They (yes, the famous they - I don't remember which magazine it was)
tested it at Finland some years ago. They had a computer with driving
simulator and everyone in the test took a one drink between driving
sessions. The results show that after 2-3 drinks most of them actually
were driving better than without. OTOH they drove the same track over
and over again (they had to to make sure that the results are
comparable) and learned how the track goes :). I guess no-one is
surprised to hear that there wasn't people surprisingly running to the
track oslt involved.

-Aero

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On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:04:56 +0300, Eero Ahonen
<aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid> wrote:

>Stephen wrote:
>> 
>> Have you ever heard anyone saying "I drive better after a couple of drinks"?
>> 
>
>They (yes, the famous they - I don't remember which magazine it was)
>tested it at Finland some years ago. They had a computer with driving
>simulator and everyone in the test took a one drink between driving
>sessions. The results show that after 2-3 drinks most of them actually
>were driving better than without. OTOH they drove the same track over
>and over again (they had to to make sure that the results are
>comparable) and learned how the track goes :). I guess no-one is
>surprised to hear that there wasn't people surprisingly running to the
>track oslt involved.
>
>-Aero

That's all very well when things go well but what happens when something
unexpected happens? Faster reflexes and better judgement?

OSLT > Or Something Like That ?
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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Eero Ahonen wrote:
> The results show that after 2-3 drinks most of them actually
> were driving better than without. 

So they lacked a control group, which would have told them how much of the 
improvement was repetition.  Bad scientist. No grant.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!

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On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:07:21 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 29 Mar 2009 01:42:17 -0400, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Ironically, I read what I wrote again and should clarify that I don't
>>think teens sleeping together causes automobile accidents. ;-)
>>
> It can if they are driving, I would think.

Point.  But even sleeping separately while driving can cause automobile 
accidents. :-)

>>Well, I'd say that *some* people are really bad at judging low-risk
>>activities.  But why penalize the rest of us for it?
>>
> Because everyone thinks that they are the exception.

80% of drivers think they're above average.  What scares me about that 
statistic is that 20% think they're below average and they're still on 
the roads.

> "tend to get off the phone" Does that mean that sometimes you don't?

Depends on the route I'm driving and how busy the road is.  I usually get 
to the city after rush hour is over, so the surface streets are not all 
that busy.  I also use a headset, both hands on the wheel at all times.

>>> Granted, if you don't realize that trying to type a text message while
>>> you drive is dangerous, you're stupid, but...
>>
> The same could be said for talking on the phone.
> 
> After bumping my motorbike into a wall when parking 40 years ago after
> drinking 2 pints of beer. (The limit was considered to be 3 pints.) I've
> never driven after drinking and I like a drink. I also switch my phone
> off when driving, If I've left it on by mistake and it rings I ignore it
> then pull over to check it when I can.
> 
> Have you ever heard anyone saying "I drive better after a couple of
> drinks"?

I have, and I think it's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard - 
and I generally will tell people who say that exactly that.

That said, a good friend of mine (who lost his license as a result of the 
incident) ended up with a shattered ankle after a head-on collision.  He 
was over the legal limit, and the other driver died in the accident.  But 
being the freak he is, it was 100% the other guy's fault - the other car 
was over the centre line on a long curve and there's no way my friend 
could've avoided hitting him.

The constables on the scene - as well as the dead driver's family - felt 
badly for him because his license was suspended.

The guess is that the main reason he didn't die in the accident was 
because he was relaxed as a result of the alcohol.  If he hadn't had a 
few pints ahead of time, his injuries would probably have been more 
severe or he might've died.

Jim

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On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:04:56 +0300, Eero Ahonen wrote:

> Stephen wrote:
>> 
>> Have you ever heard anyone saying "I drive better after a couple of
>> drinks"?
>> 
>> 
> They (yes, the famous they - I don't remember which magazine it was)
> tested it at Finland some years ago. They had a computer with driving
> simulator and everyone in the test took a one drink between driving
> sessions. The results show that after 2-3 drinks most of them actually
> were driving better than without. OTOH they drove the same track over
> and over again (they had to to make sure that the results are
> comparable) and learned how the track goes :). I guess no-one is
> surprised to hear that there wasn't people surprisingly running to the
> track oslt involved.
> 
> -Aero

Well, ISTR that most Finnish drivers go through what is described by some 
as the most intensive driving course in the world, and that the exams are 
actually difficult.

Jim

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On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 10:02:50 +0200, andrel wrote:

> On 29-3-2009 7:42, Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
>> I've only once, for example, been so drunk that I couldn't remember
>> what had happened (the time I got home and wasn't sure); but the memory
>> did return after a few days (and let's just say I was damned lucky). 
>> So I know my tolerance and I don't get anywhere near it now.
> 
> Long before you notice anything yourself your reaction time already goes
> up. 

This is definitely true; however I learned a long time ago how to judge 
that.  However the unexpected is something you can't predict, which is 
why I stay off the road until my reactions are better.

If I'm at a friend's house and expect to drink more than a pint or two of 
beer over the course of the evening, I ask them to hold my keys for me 
and to not give them back if it's clear I'm in no condition to drive.

Jim

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On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 22:57:36 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Ironically, I read what I wrote again and should clarify that I don't
>> think teens sleeping together causes automobile accidents. ;-)
> 
> Not *automobile* accidents, no.  Parking While Intoxicated causes
> accidents.

LOL!

>> But I also have an effective way to divide my attention during that
>> drive.  When I get into town, things change, so I tend to get off the
>> phone, but on the freeway it's an entirely different matter.
> 
> How do you know?

I know because I drive this stretch of I-15 very regularly and because I 
know how I divide my attention.  For example, I often don't know exactly 
where I am on the road (not important information to safely driving on 
the freeway) but I know the position of every car in my immediate 
vicinity.  Both ahead of *and* behind me as well.  I do that when I'm 
driving "not on the phone" as well, but I also tend to have a better idea 
where I am on the freeway (relative to the office and home).

IOW, I filter out the unimportant things to driving safely on the road 
and my attention is on those things that are instead of listening to the 
radio, seeing how far I have to go to get home, and so on.

There are lots of things that people process while they're driving that 
are unimportant to not being in a wreck.  I switch that part of my 
attention to the conversation, just as I would if the person were in the 
car with me.

But they *always* know I'm driving - often I even start the conversation 
with "I'm on my way home now".  I also occasionally say "sorry, I didn't 
hear that, can you repeat" because my full attention was needed for 
something happening around me (car speeding past on the right, accident 
on the median causing traffic slowing - things like that).

>> The new law in Utah would make that illegal.  However, the cops have no
>> way of knowing that's what I'm doing.
> 
> Then pull off to the side and do it. :-) Seems easy enough.

That's not the point, though.  The point is that the law is unenforceable 
anyways, so it's really a waste of the legislator's time.

While we're legislating things that cannot possibly be enforced, let's 
also make it illegal to clip your toenails on a Sunday night if you're 
home alone.

>> likely going to be on the call while I'm driving.
> 
> At least here you get to have hands-free conversations. Not that it's
> all that much better.

I think it does make a huge difference.  For one thing, if you aren't 
talking hands-free, you don't have both hands on the wheel.  You have 
less control over the 1-1.5 tonnes of vehicle you're driving.

>>> impaired and not feel it in the least. Whether it's bad enough to ruin
>>> your driving depends on how well you drive before that, I guess.
>> 
>> True.  And how well attuned you are to your own abilities and driving
>> habits.
> 
> That, and how much room you leave, and etc. I'm not a very good driver
> any more, since I no longer commute very far if at all, but I'm smart
> enough to know that and leave plenty of space around myself, for
> example.

Yes, that's a very important piece as well.  I *always* try to leave a 
fair amount of space around me on all sides (if I can) and have a 
constantly changing focus as to where I *could* go if I had to shift 
lanes quickly.  I'm constantly updating my situational awareness; I think 
a lot of drivers don't think about what's going on behind them.   A 
couple weeks ago, I hit a patch of ice on a surface street (not on the 
phone, very early in the morning and I hadn't gotten on the freeway 
yet).  I had left plenty of room ahead of me to get stopped (in spite of 
not knowing there was ice on the roads) but the car behind me hadn't.

I think most drivers would've ended up being rear-ended.  I got slowed 
down to a point where I wasn't going to hit the car in front of me, saw 
the headlights of the car behind me disappear below the deck of the 
trunk, cranked the wheel to the left and took my foot off the brake; the 
wheels gripped and the car pulled gently into the center lane, avoiding 
being hit from behind.

The driver in the car behind me *clearly* was unprepared, and when the 
light turned, he maintained a significant gap behind me.

>> I've only once, for example, been so drunk that I couldn't remember
>> what had happened
> 
> I've never been that drunk. :-)

I think you are very fortunate in that.  I generally don't drink a lot 
any more, but there were a few years where it was a common thing for me.  
We've got bottles and bottles of beer in the fridge, for example, that 
have been there for months.  We actually use it more for cooking than for 
drinking.

Jim

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Stephen wrote:
> 
> That's all very well when things go well but what happens when something
> unexpected happens? Faster reflexes and better judgement?

Exactly. And that they drove the track AFAIK first time ever purely
sober and started the drinks after that, learning while driving, even
though alcohol was making the driving worse, makes the results unreliable.

> OSLT > Or Something Like That ?

Yep.

-Aero

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Darren New wrote:
> 
> So they lacked a control group, which would have told them how much of
> the improvement was repetition.  Bad scientist. No grant.
> 

Agreed. It was a test by some automobile magazine. They were simply to
prove that the alcohol makes things worse, but they kind of missed
theier target.

-Aero

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