On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:27:26 -0200, nemesis wrote:

> Linux doesn't work poorly, its developers simply don't have the
> resources to support all hardware by themselves.

It's not always a question of resources, but also a question of publicly 
available specs for the hardware so drivers can be written.  Some 
hardware manufacturers don't want their hardware supported by OSS 
platforms, so they explicitly require an NDA to get access to programming 
information about the hardware.

Jim

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Jim Henderson escreveu:
> On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:27:26 -0200, nemesis wrote:
> 
>> Linux doesn't work poorly, its developers simply don't have the
>> resources to support all hardware by themselves.
> 
> It's not always a question of resources, but also a question of publicly 
> available specs for the hardware so drivers can be written.  Some 
> hardware manufacturers don't want their hardware supported by OSS 
> platforms, so they explicitly require an NDA to get access to programming 
> information about the hardware.

Hmm, playing dirty, huh?  Is it just the case of the 3D video cards or 
also other kinds of hardware?...

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nemesis wrote:
> Hmm, playing dirty, huh? 

No, playing for real money. :-)

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 11:33:34 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> 
>> I've had at least two machines where GRUB wouldn't even load - probably
>> the motherboard or something, which is actually something surprisingly
>> difficult to find out about a computer you plan to buy already built.
> 
> I've seen this a couple of times myself 

Well, I was speaking of booting the installation disk or the live cd. 
Didn't even get as far as actually installing it.

>- it's always (in my case 
> anyways) been a problem with the way Windows uses the MBR.  Some Linux 
> distros install GRUB to the partition rather than the MBR and that'll 
> cause problems if Windows is on the machine already - or if it's wiped 
> off but the MBR isn't touched.

Maybe. I don't have any trouble using Windows' bootloader to load GRUB. 
You just have to set it up right. It's pretty trivial.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

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On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 18:15:04 -0200, nemesis wrote:

> Hmm, playing dirty, huh?  Is it just the case of the 3D video cards or
> also other kinds of hardware?...

Divio is one that I've had to deal with; they manufacture (or 
manufactured) the CCD chip in some of the older Logitech Quickcams.  I 
happen to own one of those.

Divio refuses to open the spec, so the only Linux driver effort (which is 
now dead, AFAIK) is a development of the 'nw802' and 'nw8xx' drivers done 
entirely through reverse engineering using a USB sniffer.

I've also heard that some of the newer HP laserjet printers don't have 
open specs so there aren't drivers yet for them.  That one I haven't 
confirmed, just have heard about.

And don't get me started on BroadCom's idea of open source support....

Jim

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On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 15:09:51 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> nemesis wrote:
>> Hmm, playing dirty, huh?
> 
> No, playing for real money. :-)

Real money comes from hardware sales, though; supporting (or allowing 
others to write support for) more platforms = more product sales.

Jim

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On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 15:11:03 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> Well, I was speaking of booting the installation disk or the live cd.
> Didn't even get as far as actually installing it.

Oh, that's not Grub, that's SYSLINUX - Grub is hard-disk only to the best 
of my knowledge.

> Maybe. I don't have any trouble using Windows' bootloader to load GRUB.
> You just have to set it up right. It's pretty trivial.

Yup.  But it's not something that I've ever seen automated by the Linux 
installers.  Of course, I also tend to install to bare metal, not a 
system with Windows pre-installed.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 18:15:04 -0200, nemesis wrote:
> 
>> Hmm, playing dirty, huh?  Is it just the case of the 3D video cards or
>> also other kinds of hardware?...
> 
> Divio is one that I've had to deal with; they manufacture (or
> manufactured) the CCD chip in some of the older Logitech Quickcams.  I
> happen to own one of those.
> 
> Divio refuses to open the spec, so the only Linux driver effort (which is
> now dead, AFAIK) is a development of the 'nw802' and 'nw8xx' drivers done
> entirely through reverse engineering using a USB sniffer.

I read a blog about someone trying to reverse engineer the iPhone USB
protocol with a USB sniffer. They figured out a few basic things, then
noticed most of the interesting stuff was ENCRYPTED, and the project got
into a halt.

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> Real money comes from hardware sales, though; supporting (or allowing 
> others to write support for) more platforms = more product sales.

Yes. That's why (for example) Sun gives away Java.

However, that doesn't hold true when the device drivers include much of 
the innovation in the hardware. As soon as you explain exactly how it 
works, someone else can rip off your design.  See, for example, "PC Clone".

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> Oh, that's not Grub, that's SYSLINUX - Grub is hard-disk only to the best 
> of my knowledge.

OK. Whatever. Obviously it would have been a PITA to install Linux there 
even if I could get it to boot.

>> Maybe. I don't have any trouble using Windows' bootloader to load GRUB.
>> You just have to set it up right. It's pretty trivial.
> 
> Yup.  But it's not something that I've ever seen automated by the Linux 
> installers. 

No, because they can't write to NTFS partitions. So they can't modify 
the Windows boot menu to accomidate Linux. So they clobber the Windows 
boot sector with the GRUB boot sector.  Which, honestly, wouldn't be all 
*that* awful, if they actually followed the rules for booting,which is 
to say, boot the partition marked "active".  If they did that, you could 
boot back and forth between Windows and Linux without being at the console.


-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

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