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On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 11:33:34 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> I've had at least two machines where GRUB wouldn't even load - probably
> the motherboard or something, which is actually something surprisingly
> difficult to find out about a computer you plan to buy already built.
I've seen this a couple of times myself - it's always (in my case
anyways) been a problem with the way Windows uses the MBR. Some Linux
distros install GRUB to the partition rather than the MBR and that'll
cause problems if Windows is on the machine already - or if it's wiped
off but the MBR isn't touched.
Jim
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On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:27:26 -0200, nemesis wrote:
> Linux doesn't work poorly, its developers simply don't have the
> resources to support all hardware by themselves.
It's not always a question of resources, but also a question of publicly
available specs for the hardware so drivers can be written. Some
hardware manufacturers don't want their hardware supported by OSS
platforms, so they explicitly require an NDA to get access to programming
information about the hardware.
Jim
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Jim Henderson escreveu:
> On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:27:26 -0200, nemesis wrote:
>
>> Linux doesn't work poorly, its developers simply don't have the
>> resources to support all hardware by themselves.
>
> It's not always a question of resources, but also a question of publicly
> available specs for the hardware so drivers can be written. Some
> hardware manufacturers don't want their hardware supported by OSS
> platforms, so they explicitly require an NDA to get access to programming
> information about the hardware.
Hmm, playing dirty, huh? Is it just the case of the 3D video cards or
also other kinds of hardware?...
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nemesis wrote:
> Hmm, playing dirty, huh?
No, playing for real money. :-)
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: Linux really costs a _lot_ more than $40
Date: 23 Oct 2008 18:11:03
Message: <4900f677@news.povray.org>
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 11:33:34 -0700, Darren New wrote:
>
>> I've had at least two machines where GRUB wouldn't even load - probably
>> the motherboard or something, which is actually something surprisingly
>> difficult to find out about a computer you plan to buy already built.
>
> I've seen this a couple of times myself
Well, I was speaking of booting the installation disk or the live cd.
Didn't even get as far as actually installing it.
>- it's always (in my case
> anyways) been a problem with the way Windows uses the MBR. Some Linux
> distros install GRUB to the partition rather than the MBR and that'll
> cause problems if Windows is on the machine already - or if it's wiped
> off but the MBR isn't touched.
Maybe. I don't have any trouble using Windows' bootloader to load GRUB.
You just have to set it up right. It's pretty trivial.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 18:15:04 -0200, nemesis wrote:
> Hmm, playing dirty, huh? Is it just the case of the 3D video cards or
> also other kinds of hardware?...
Divio is one that I've had to deal with; they manufacture (or
manufactured) the CCD chip in some of the older Logitech Quickcams. I
happen to own one of those.
Divio refuses to open the spec, so the only Linux driver effort (which is
now dead, AFAIK) is a development of the 'nw802' and 'nw8xx' drivers done
entirely through reverse engineering using a USB sniffer.
I've also heard that some of the newer HP laserjet printers don't have
open specs so there aren't drivers yet for them. That one I haven't
confirmed, just have heard about.
And don't get me started on BroadCom's idea of open source support....
Jim
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On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 15:09:51 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> nemesis wrote:
>> Hmm, playing dirty, huh?
>
> No, playing for real money. :-)
Real money comes from hardware sales, though; supporting (or allowing
others to write support for) more platforms = more product sales.
Jim
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Linux really costs a _lot_ more than $40
Date: 23 Oct 2008 20:44:02
Message: <49011a52@news.povray.org>
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On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 15:11:03 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> Well, I was speaking of booting the installation disk or the live cd.
> Didn't even get as far as actually installing it.
Oh, that's not Grub, that's SYSLINUX - Grub is hard-disk only to the best
of my knowledge.
> Maybe. I don't have any trouble using Windows' bootloader to load GRUB.
> You just have to set it up right. It's pretty trivial.
Yup. But it's not something that I've ever seen automated by the Linux
installers. Of course, I also tend to install to bare metal, not a
system with Windows pre-installed.
Jim
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From: Nicolas Alvarez
Subject: Re: Linux really costs a _lot_ more than $40
Date: 23 Oct 2008 21:34:32
Message: <49012628@news.povray.org>
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 18:15:04 -0200, nemesis wrote:
>
>> Hmm, playing dirty, huh? Is it just the case of the 3D video cards or
>> also other kinds of hardware?...
>
> Divio is one that I've had to deal with; they manufacture (or
> manufactured) the CCD chip in some of the older Logitech Quickcams. I
> happen to own one of those.
>
> Divio refuses to open the spec, so the only Linux driver effort (which is
> now dead, AFAIK) is a development of the 'nw802' and 'nw8xx' drivers done
> entirely through reverse engineering using a USB sniffer.
I read a blog about someone trying to reverse engineer the iPhone USB
protocol with a USB sniffer. They figured out a few basic things, then
noticed most of the interesting stuff was ENCRYPTED, and the project got
into a halt.
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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: Linux really costs a _lot_ more than $40
Date: 23 Oct 2008 23:21:24
Message: <49013f34@news.povray.org>
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> Real money comes from hardware sales, though; supporting (or allowing
> others to write support for) more platforms = more product sales.
Yes. That's why (for example) Sun gives away Java.
However, that doesn't hold true when the device drivers include much of
the innovation in the hardware. As soon as you explain exactly how it
works, someone else can rip off your design. See, for example, "PC Clone".
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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