And lo on Thu, 31 Jan 2008 05:36:50 -0000, Patrick Elliott  
<sel### [at] rraznet> did spake, saying:

> In article <op.t5opm6cgc3xi7v@news.povray.org>,
> phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk says...
>
> Ok, then tell me how most of what gets called "spin" in politics isn't
> exactly what is described. A mix of people making up stuff to explain
> what they don't comprehend, while lying about the stuff they know, or
> think they know, is true. lol

It's like statistics, spin is presenting the data in a different way.

Try this

"It's often said that you can't lie; is this true?"
"Yes"

Now the interpreted vebose version

"Is it true that it's often said you can't lie?"
"Yes it is true that it's often said I can't lie, however the statement  
that everyone makes is incorrect and I can and do lie all the time"

Yeah weaselly with a capital W.

> Seriously though, you have some good points. The presumption though is
> that the liar *knows* the truth and opts to say something else, not that
> they only *think* they know. While that may not always be true, from the
> perspective of those presenting the "facts" to refute the lie, its still
> presumed to be a lie, even if they got it right *by* lying. Same with
> BS. Yes, its possible to make something up and "accidentally" stumble on
> the truth, but its rather improbable.

I do love that presumption though, again try this

"The floor of the main hall in Christchurch is paved with marble"

Every form of lie detection device you may have will tell you I'm lying,  
at this point you pump me full of pentathol and attach electrodes to  
tender areas of my body in order to discover what the main hall floor is  
paved with. Except I don't know, I don't even know if Christcurch has a  
main hall. I'm bullshitting, but the fact that the devices tell you I'm  
lying implies I know the truth, which I don't.

> As for spin.. Lets put it this way instead: "To spin something you have
> to know not only how you *want* people to perceive things, but also how
> your opponent *does* perceive them. To get the right effect, you have to
> distort his view, make things up to fill in gaps you can't explain
> yourself, and, if your goal is to win, regardless of the accuracy of
> your position, lie about what is really going on." Its not really
> "spin" unless you are at least two out of three of those.

Apart from the "make thing up" bit yep. If you have to make something up  
to fill the gaps then you can be accused of lying; much more satisfactory  
to be misinterpreted instead.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> >> > At least I found the reason: Your showel was too hard.
> >> > No, no, don't flail again. :)
> >>
> >> That's okay John's flown off with and I don't have another Shovel +2
> >> Against Reason as blessed by L Ron Hubbard lying around. I could just
> >> wrap
> >> some wires around the handle of a different shovel say it detects
> >> "Thetan
> >> Radiation" and try that if you like?
> >
> > Hihi, won't work, because I have an atheistic shield +20. :P
>
> Heh it was an Attack of opportunity which negates shields, you belong to
> Hubbard now :-P

No. :)
You forgot my avatar. A nice little pixie with defensive ability of
antiscientology of +3. :)
I needed time, but prepared a spell of destroying weapongs 75%. Your shovel
turns to dust.
And I've won. Yeah. :P

> > And at last it leads to the question: Is there free will in hell? ;)
>
> Perhaps in the same way there is in prison.

Or a hell like Fawlty Towers. How would the corresponding heaven look like? :)

Regards
            bluetree

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Stephen <mcavoysATaolDOTcom@> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 03:15:28 EST, "bluetree" <nomail@nomail> wrote:
>
> >
> >What's about white coffee?
>
> Yes I take my white coffee without milk or sugar.
>
> >BTW have you also tried green tea with gold? :)
>
> I should be so rich :)
>
> Regards
>  Stephen

Me too. :)
But when you are invited to try such a tea. Would you try it?

Regards
      bluetree

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On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:00:03 EST, "bluetree" <nomail@nomail> wrote:

>Stephen <mcavoysATaolDOTcom@> wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 03:15:28 EST, "bluetree" <nomail@nomail> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >What's about white coffee?
>>
>> Yes I take my white coffee without milk or sugar.
>>
>> >BTW have you also tried green tea with gold? :)
>>
>> I should be so rich :)
>>
>> Regards
>>  Stephen
>
>Me too. :)
>But when you are invited to try such a tea. Would you try it?

Yes, I would be honoured.

Regards
	Stephen

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And lo on Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:57:40 -0000, bluetree <nomail@nomail> did  
spake, saying:

> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>> >> > At least I found the reason: Your showel was too hard.
>> >> > No, no, don't flail again. :)
>> >>
>> >> That's okay John's flown off with and I don't have another Shovel +2
>> >> Against Reason as blessed by L Ron Hubbard lying around. I could just
>> >> wrap
>> >> some wires around the handle of a different shovel say it detects
>> >> "Thetan
>> >> Radiation" and try that if you like?
>> >
>> > Hihi, won't work, because I have an atheistic shield +20. :P
>>
>> Heh it was an Attack of opportunity which negates shields, you belong to
>> Hubbard now :-P
>
> No. :)
> You forgot my avatar. A nice little pixie with defensive ability of
> antiscientology of +3. :)
> I needed time, but prepared a spell of destroying weapongs 75%. Your  
> shovel
> turns to dust.
> And I've won. Yeah. :P

Damn those avatars. You can't resist forever; I'll be back and next time  
I'll bring the hunting pack of Lawyers of Suing +3.

>> > And at last it leads to the question: Is there free will in hell? ;)
>>
>> Perhaps in the same way there is in prison.
>
> Or a hell like Fawlty Towers. How would the corresponding heaven look  
> like? :)

Fawlty Towers :-P

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:53:24 +0000, Phil Cook wrote:

>> Or a hell like Fawlty Towers. How would the corresponding heaven look
>> like?
> 
> Fawlty Towers :-P

LOL!  I'm sure Basil would agree....

Jim

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What a choice.
Be a good person and you'll visit Fawlty Towers.
Be a bad person and you'll have to visit Fawlty Towers.
I would choose to stay in that transportation vehicle in between.
A neverending passenger. Perhaps I could play the deamon in a box. ;)

Regards
         bluetree

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On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:21:10 -0500, bluetree wrote:

> What a choice.
> Be a good person and you'll visit Fawlty Towers. Be a bad person and
> you'll have to visit Fawlty Towers. I would choose to stay in that
> transportation vehicle in between. A neverending passenger. Perhaps I
> could play the deamon in a box. ;)
> 
> Regards
>          bluetree

Maybe the difference is being Sybil vs. one of the guests. ;-)

Jim

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In article <op.t5snsscwc3xi7v@news.povray.org>, 
phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk says...
> Apart from the "make thing up" bit yep. If you have to make something up 
 
> to fill the gaps then you can be accused of lying; much more satisfactory
  
> to be misinterpreted instead.
> 
Ah, but only by people that *know* what actually exists in the gaps. The 
trick is to find some legitimate gap that they can't fill either, then 
stuff a purple pokadot unicorn into it, or what ever the equivalent is 
in the subject you are trying to spin your way. If it "sounds" like you 
have an answer, while the other side honestly says they don't, but at 
looking, a lot of people that don't know any better will fall for 
"your" version of it. Well, most people, especially when political 
decisions are involved, don't have a clue what is in the gaps, where 
they are, how big they are, or even if they exist at all, but they got 
one clown up there spinning like a top and insisting they do know that 
gaps exist, and they personally, or their team, or what ever, *knows* 
exactly what fits in the hole.

To be clear, the origin of the descriptions I gave are from a book 
written by one of those people that run satire on Comedy Central, so it 
*is* politics that they describe.

-- 
void main () {

    if version = "Vista" {
      call slow_by_half();
      call DRM_everything();
    }
    call functional_code();
  }
  else
    call crash_windows();
}

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Phil Cook wrote:
> Yeah weaselly with a capital W.

Mainly capitalized because it's his middle initial.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     On what day did God create the body thetans?

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