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Alain <ele### [at] netscape net> wrote:
> Freedom of speech stops when you start telling lies, or you throw around false
> accusations or start difaming peoples. You can use freedom of speech, but you
> can't abuse it.
> Like for any freedom, your freedom stop where your neibour's freedom start.
> Also, with every freedom comes some duty and obligations.
Thus "freedom of speech" is the same type of oxymoron as "free speech
zone".
--
- Warp
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Warp wrote:
> That's one of the contradictory thinking I have never understood:
Yeah. A lot of the laws around here are clearly counter-productive. :-/
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
It's not feature creep if you put it
at the end and adjust the release date.
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Warp wrote:
> Thus "freedom of speech" is the same type of oxymoron as "free speech
> zone".
Not really. "Freedom of speech" means you can't pass laws about the
content of speech.
For example, you can be stopped from shouting loudly while standing in
the middle of a residential street in the middle of the night,
regardless of what you're shouting about. You can't be stopped for
talking about religion or economic theory, regardless of what the
religion or theory is, because that would be based on content rather
than delivery.
Defamation (i.e., lying about someone to damage them) is a civil
problem. In other words, the government isn't trying to stop you from
doing it. The person you're lying about can say "your lies cost me
money, so pay me back and stop doing it." In the USA, truth is an
absolute defense to defamation charges; i.e., if you actually did sleep
with a prostitute, me making that public cannot get me in legal trouble.
A "free speech zone" is an oxymoron (in the USA) because free speech is
guaranteed everywhere. Hence, the existence of a zone where it's
permitted implies there are places where it isn't.
BOCTAOE.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
It's not feature creep if you put it
at the end and adjust the release date.
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And lo on Tue, 01 Jan 2008 04:23:11 -0000, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>
did spake, saying:
> Warp wrote:
>> Tim Cook <z99### [at] bellsouthnet> wrote:
>>> "ho hum, I don't really like these immigrants, they're taking our jobs
>>> and diluting our culture the way cultures have been being diluted and
>>> turned into what are really other cultures since forever"
>> Btw, I find this cliche quite curious, given that the real problem is
>> more or less the exact opposite.
>
> I expect immigration in earlier decades in the USA differ from modern
> immigration in Europe (and possibly the USA).
>
> Earlier generations in the USA wanted to be Americans, not Irish or
> Germans or whatever living in America. Both my sets of grandparents
> refused to teach their children (my parents) their native languages, as
> they wanted the kids to learn English well so as to better integrate,
> for example.
>
> Nowadays, the Mexican immigrants around here (20 miles north of Mexico)
> want their kids to learn English, and the prejudiced fools who think
> Mexicans can't learn try to pass laws making it required to teach school
> classes in spanish.
Here in the UK we provide free language lessons for immigrants and then
make sure that all government information is available in English, Polish,
Urdu,...
Trouble is the cost of providing said pamphlets is quite high prompting a
lot of tabloids to complain about this waste of taxpayers money (ignoring
the fact that a lot of these immigrants are themselves taxpayers too); if
they come over here, they write, they should learn the language.
Then the cost of these free English lessons are released and the very same
tabloids then complain about this waste of money.
Then people are turned away from the lessons because the staff can't cope
with the numbers coming in (unless they get more funding) and the tabloids
then complain about immigrants who are 'trying to do the right thing'
being let down.
It'd all be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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Phil Cook wrote:
> It'd all be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
"In summary: People are a problem."
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Phil Cook <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> Trouble is the cost of providing said pamphlets is quite high prompting a
> lot of tabloids to complain about this waste of taxpayers money (ignoring
> the fact that a lot of these immigrants are themselves taxpayers too)
I think that the tabloids are right if the immigrant have a total
negative effect on the economy and wrong if they have a total positive
effect on it. Has anyone dared to make the (unbiased) calculations there
on which is the case?
Of course in modern Europe it would not be PC to make (and especially
publish) such calculations if they show that the net total is negative...
--
- Warp
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And lo on Fri, 04 Jan 2008 11:44:14 -0000, Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> did
spake, saying:
> Phil Cook <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>> Trouble is the cost of providing said pamphlets is quite high prompting
>> a
>> lot of tabloids to complain about this waste of taxpayers money
>> (ignoring
>> the fact that a lot of these immigrants are themselves taxpayers too)
>
> I think that the tabloids are right if the immigrant have a total
> negative effect on the economy and wrong if they have a total positive
> effect on it. Has anyone dared to make the (unbiased) calculations there
> on which is the case?
>
> Of course in modern Europe it would not be PC to make (and especially
> publish) such calculations if they show that the net total is negative...
For my country historically we seemed to get a positive result, unless
they were Catholic or Norman :-) Then again historically we didn't bend
over backwards to accomodate them.
I was at the Polish Club a couple of months ago and they were talking
about how they were helping immigrating Poles, mostly a bit of translation
of documents, legal niceties, how to open a bank account etc. unlike the
tabloid portrayal of "Which way to Job Centre for free monies please?".
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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Phil Cook nous apporta ses lumieres en ce 2008/01/04 04:56:
> And lo on Tue, 01 Jan 2008 04:23:11 -0000, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>
> did spake, saying:
>
>> Warp wrote:
>>> Tim Cook <z99### [at] bellsouthnet> wrote:
>>>> "ho hum, I don't really like these immigrants, they're taking our
>>>> jobs and diluting our culture the way cultures have been being
>>>> diluted and turned into what are really other cultures since forever"
>>> Btw, I find this cliche quite curious, given that the real problem is
>>> more or less the exact opposite.
>>
>> I expect immigration in earlier decades in the USA differ from modern
>> immigration in Europe (and possibly the USA).
>>
>> Earlier generations in the USA wanted to be Americans, not Irish or
>> Germans or whatever living in America. Both my sets of grandparents
>> refused to teach their children (my parents) their native languages,
>> as they wanted the kids to learn English well so as to better
>> integrate, for example.
>>
>> Nowadays, the Mexican immigrants around here (20 miles north of
>> Mexico) want their kids to learn English, and the prejudiced fools
>> who think Mexicans can't learn try to pass laws making it required to
>> teach school classes in spanish.
>
> Here in the UK we provide free language lessons for immigrants and then
> make sure that all government information is available in English,
> Polish, Urdu,...
>
> Trouble is the cost of providing said pamphlets is quite high prompting
> a lot of tabloids to complain about this waste of taxpayers money
> (ignoring the fact that a lot of these immigrants are themselves
> taxpayers too); if they come over here, they write, they should learn
> the language.
>
> Then the cost of these free English lessons are released and the very
> same tabloids then complain about this waste of money.
>
> Then people are turned away from the lessons because the staff can't
> cope with the numbers coming in (unless they get more funding) and the
> tabloids then complain about immigrants who are 'trying to do the right
> thing' being let down.
>
> It'd all be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
>
Damn if you do, damn if you don't!
--
Alain
-------------------------------------------------
If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you;
that is the principal difference between a dog and a man.
Mark Twain
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And lo on Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:30:23 -0000, Alain
<ele### [at] netscapenet> did spake, saying:
> Phil Cook nous apporta ses lumieres en ce 2008/01/04 04:56:
>
>> It'd all be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
>>
> Damn if you do, damn if you don't!
Unless you're newspaper editor. The sad thing is they believe themselves
to be the voice of the people... the really sad thing is that too many
politicians believe them or are too frightened to stand up to them.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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Phil Cook wrote:
> For my country historically we seemed to get a positive result, unless
> they were Catholic or Norman :-) Then again historically we didn't bend
LOL!
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
It's not feature creep if you put it
at the end and adjust the release date.
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