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From: Christoph Hormann
Subject: Re: links
Date: 9 Jan 2003 11:16:02
Message: <3E1DA03F.F2A36C02@gmx.de>
ABX wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 06:48:39 -0800, Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
> > mailto:lin### [at] povrayorg
> 
> At least two times I asked about adding http://abx.art.pl/pov/bonus/pack.php
> to links and got promises. Moreover there is imo a lack of important links in
> 
>
http://www.povray.org/resources/links/3D_Programs/POV-Ray_Unofficial_Patches_and_Front_End_Programs/POV-Ray_Patches_v3.5/
> 
> [...]

In defense of Ken it would surely be good to mention that maintaining a
1000+ links collection is probably quite a lot of work and you can't
expect every part of it being continuously up-to-date.  None the less it
would probably be useful to supply some form for submitting new links or
link changes and have the submissions included quite frequently. 
Including submissions without a review is surely not an option but if such
a submission form is connected with the user accounts on the povray.org
site certain parts of the link collection could also be maintained by
other users.  Apart from supporting Ken's work this could also increase
the bandwidth of topics covered by the link collection.

But as i understood it the original idea of this thread was something
quite different. A possibility to show ressources found on the net that
people can visit everyday to get new ideas and inspiration.  I think this
is something a link collection like Ken's can hardly offer even if it had
a full time maintainer...

Christoph

-- 
POV-Ray tutorials, include files, Sim-POV,
HCR-Edit and more: http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0013390/
Last updated 31 Dec. 2002 _____./\/^>_*_<^\/\.______


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From: ABX
Subject: Re: links
Date: 9 Jan 2003 11:40:46
Message: <dd9r1v49thp27ltbncue3udo8od5v846ot@4ax.com>
On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 17:15:59 +0100, Christoph Hormann <chr### [at] gmxde>
wrote:
> In defense

No need to be in defense. There is no aggressive content in my posts. My
thought was just that complexity, diversity and usability of pov-related
world, sites and community increases and therefore one lonely man working on
it may not be enough at present. And to explain my thoughts there is my link
to Insert Menu Bonus Pack. I posted it via old design of page one year ago or
so. Two times I pointed out on news it is not linked and got promises. Now I
see that there are fresh entries but still can't find mine. Again: I
understand it is hard work but it is hard becouse it is one-man work. Why not
to allow TAG members to add links to database for example? Why not to create
some container like group I mentioned? Why not to make it community work ? Why
not connect adding links with user accounts as Chris suggested ?

ABX


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From: Thorsten Froehlich
Subject: Re: links
Date: 9 Jan 2003 12:24:26
Message: <3e1db04a$1@news.povray.org>
In article <eq4r1vk0e0j9vtmu7l63221k7ng48c2u1t@4ax.com> , ABX 
<abx### [at] abxartpl>  wrote:

> At least two times I asked about adding http://abx.art.pl/pov/bonus/pack.php
> to links and got promises. Moreover there is imo a lack of important links in

The link list is not updated every day.  It requires work on our site to
update it.  Even if Ken knows about the link, that does not mean it will
appear on the site immediately.

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org


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From: Gilles Tran
Subject: Re: links
Date: 9 Jan 2003 14:10:28
Message: <3e1dc924$1@news.povray.org>

dd9r1v49thp27ltbncue3udo8od5v846ot@4ax.com...
> understand it is hard work but it is hard becouse it is one-man work. Why
not
> to allow TAG members to add links to database for example? Why not to
create
> some container like group I mentioned? Why not to make it community work ?

I think that there are several problems with links databases these days (and
not only with the povray links).

1) Links databases are not as useful as they were : I used to go there a lot
a few years ago, but today, simple google searches can return much more (and
more updated) relevant links than a human-maintained list can.

2) There's simply too many sites out there to be properly classified. In
fact there seems to be some sort of nucleus of permanent, really useful
sites and then an amazing amount of secondary sites which can have great
content but keep blinking on and off the web. I'm often hunting for 3D
props, for instance, but keeping track of every single 3D model site has
become both impossible (there are hundreds of them) and useless (even if I
had a exhaustive, updated list, exploring each site one by one could take
days). Ditto for texture sites, modellers etc. Again, a google search or a
direct search in one of the "core" sites can be more fruitful.

Note that I maintain a professional links database myself, so I really
appreciate the sort of work that Ken has been doing. I do know that it is
hard work, and I believe it has been extremely useful when the Web was
young. Still, I think that comprehensive links databases of this kind are no
longer adapted to the current state of the Web. It is just too big now.

I'd propose :
1) a leaner, shorter and quite restrictive list of URLs with only the proven
core of really popular sites I was talking about, so that we can direct
newbies to it.

2) more or less what ABX is describing, i.e. a rolling list of URLs
automatically submitted by users, if possible with comments, but with no
classification and no promise of updates. It would be searchable and simply
archived (i.e. with the 50 last links on the main pages and the rest on the
archives page).

G.


--

**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters


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From: Thorsten Froehlich
Subject: Re: links
Date: 9 Jan 2003 14:32:51
Message: <3e1dce63@news.povray.org>
In article <3e1dc924$1@news.povray.org> , "Gilles Tran" <tra### [at] inapginrafr>
wrote:

> 1) Links databases are not as useful as they were : I used to go there a lot
> a few years ago, but today, simple google searches can return much more (and
> more updated) relevant links than a human-maintained list can.

But Google searches only work because of these link collections.  Remember
that Google ranking is based to a major part on the links pointing to a site
and the links a site makes to other sites.  So you remove the link
collections, you change Google ranking!

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org


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From: Gilles Tran
Subject: Re: links
Date: 9 Jan 2003 16:15:28
Message: <3e1de670@news.povray.org>

3e1dce63@news.povray.org...
>
> But Google searches only work because of these link collections.  Remember
> that Google ranking is based to a major part on the links pointing to a
site
> and the links a site makes to other sites.  So you remove the link
> collections, you change Google ranking!

True enough, but I don't dispute the necessity of linking, which is
fundamental to the Web (and to Google).
What I say is that organised links collections have become unmanageable both
by the people who maintain them (unless they  have a paid workforce to do
it) and by the people who use them (because the links are too numerous and
many are dead). In my own rather narrow field of work, where we're lagging a
few years behind computer graphics in terms of internet use, I collected and
indexed around 1000 links 2 years ago, which seemed gigantic; today I just
can't keep up as any google search retrieves dozens of interesting links
that I just don't have the time to index properly. In fact, googling them up
later is likely to be faster than searching my own database.
Allowing users to submit links and archive those links doesn't defeat
linking. Actually, many links are now posted in free form in
personal/community blogs and web forums and find their way in Google. It
just means that the burden of classification and ranking, which is the real
bottleneck here, is shifted to the search engines. Of course, user-submitted
links have other issues, like moderation, spamming, double posts etc.

G.


--
**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters


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From: ABX
Subject: Re: links
Date: 10 Jan 2003 04:44:49
Message: <p75t1vsuqc3hlopq60td0jhsomlik2kjm1@4ax.com>
On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 20:32:48 +0100, "Thorsten Froehlich" <tho### [at] trfde>
wrote:
> But Google searches only work because of these link collections.

In case of http://www.povray.org/resources/links/ all links are in form
http://www.povray.org/resources/links/redirect.php/*2*http://www.mnsi.net/~jschlic1/

and robots.txt contains:
Disallow: /resources/links/redirect.php 

will Google use such link to increase popularity parameter for this entry ?

ABX


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From: Thorsten Froehlich
Subject: Re: links
Date: 10 Jan 2003 14:06:44
Message: <3e1f19c4@news.povray.org>
In article <p75t1vsuqc3hlopq60td0jhsomlik2kjm1@4ax.com> , ABX 
<abx### [at] abxartpl>  wrote:

> In case of http://www.povray.org/resources/links/ all links are in form
>
http://www.povray.org/resources/links/redirect.php/*2*http://www.mnsi.net/~j
schlic1/
>
> and robots.txt contains:
> Disallow: /resources/links/redirect.php
>
> will Google use such link to increase popularity parameter for this entry ?

Keep in mind that the robots.txt as well as the page content you see does
not necessarily reflect what Google will see when indexing the site... :-)

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org


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From: Mark Wagner
Subject: Re: links
Date: 11 Jan 2003 00:38:00
Message: <pan.2003.01.11.05.36.43.318829.261@gte.net>
On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:06:42 -0500, Thorsten Froehlich quoth:

> In article <p75t1vsuqc3hlopq60td0jhsomlik2kjm1@4ax.com> , ABX
> <abx### [at] abxartpl>  wrote:
> 
>> In case of http://www.povray.org/resources/links/ all links are in form
>>
> http://www.povray.org/resources/links/redirect.php/*2*http://www.mnsi.net/~j
> schlic1/
>>
>> and robots.txt contains:
>> Disallow: /resources/links/redirect.php
>>
>> will Google use such link to increase popularity parameter for this
>> entry ?
> 
> Keep in mind that the robots.txt as well as the page content you see
> does not necessarily reflect what Google will see when indexing the
> site... :-)

I just set my browser's user-agent to "Googlebot", and I didn't see any
changes to either the links page or the robots.txt file.

-- 
Mark


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From: Thorsten Froehlich
Subject: Re: links
Date: 11 Jan 2003 06:20:26
Message: <3e1ffdfa$1@news.povray.org>
In article <pan### [at] gtenet> , Mark Wagner 
<mar### [at] gtenet>  wrote:

>> Keep in mind that the robots.txt as well as the page content you see
>> does not necessarily reflect what Google will see when indexing the
>> site... :-)
>
> I just set my browser's user-agent to "Googlebot", and I didn't see any
> changes to either the links page or the robots.txt file.

You thing it is that easy?  There are more secure means to filter users if
they have fixed IP address ;-)

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org


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