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From: vdbergh
Subject: OSI compatible license.
Date: 23 Sep 2004 08:20:00
Message: <web.4152864ccdffb6835c3acc940@news.povray.org>
I was wondering if there are still plans to release a version of Povray
under an OSI compatible license (e.g. the GPL, see www.opensource.org?
The license for Povray 3.5 stated that this would eventually happen, but
this statement seems to have disappeared in the license of 3.6 (it is
replaced by a somewhat convoluted reference to "open source distributions").
The use of an OSI incompatible license complicates the inclusion of Povray
in Linux distributions (see the recent XFree vs xorg debate) and in this way
ultimately makes things more difficult for the enduser.

Note that it would be perfectly possible for Povray to be licensed both
under its
original license and under the GPL. This is for example the case with
Mozilla
(which is even triply licensed).

Best regards,
Michel


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From: Warp
Subject: Re: OSI compatible license.
Date: 23 Sep 2004 08:47:01
Message: <41528d84@news.povray.org>
vdbergh <vdb### [at] lucacbe> wrote:
> The use of an OSI incompatible license complicates the inclusion of Povray
> in Linux distributions

  Why? The distribution license of POV-Ray explicitly allows its distribution
in such ways as eg. a Linux distribution.

  What stops a Linux distribution from including even commercial products
as long as the distribution license of that product allows it?
  I don't think there's anything in the GPL license which forbids
non-GPL software to be bundled alongside GPL software.

> Note that it would be perfectly possible for Povray to be licensed both
> under its
> original license and under the GPL.

  As noted in many places, distributing POV-Ray under the GPL license
is problematic because the pov-team has no permission for that. They
do not own the source code of POV-Ray completely because it has not
been made completely by them, and they have been unable to locate and
get explicit permission from all the contributors who have written
parts of the POV-Ray source during its entire 10+ years history.
  The makers of POV-Ray have agreed to the usage license which was
in effect back then, and changing this license radically without
their permission would be inconsiderate at best (at worst prone to
lawsuits).

  When POV-Ray is rewritten completely from scratch the license issue
can be addressed with less problems.

-- 
plane{-x+y,-1pigment{bozo color_map{[0rgb x][1rgb x+y]}turbulence 1}}
sphere{0,2pigment{rgbt 1}interior{media{emission 1density{spherical
density_map{[0rgb 0][.5rgb<1,.5>][1rgb 1]}turbulence.9}}}scale
<1,1,3>hollow}text{ttf"timrom""Warp".1,0translate<-1,-.1,2>}//  - Warp -


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From: Thorsten Froehlich
Subject: Re: OSI compatible license.
Date: 23 Sep 2004 09:32:50
Message: <41529842@news.povray.org>
In article <web.4152864ccdffb6835c3acc940@news.povray.org> , "vdbergh" 
<vdb### [at] lucacbe> wrote:

> I was wondering if there are still plans to release a version of Povray
> under an OSI compatible license (e.g. the GPL, see www.opensource.org?

As a matter of policy the POV-Team does not discuss future versions of
POV-Ray, their planned release date or any other feature they may or may not
have.  This includes the licensing.

> Note that it would be perfectly possible for Povray to be licensed both
> under its
> original license and under the GPL. This is for example the case with
> Mozilla
> (which is even triply licensed).

You claim to have read the 3.5 license reasoning, yet you did not understand
it at all:  To change the license to a lesser one, one first needs to have
the right to do so, and obviously the 3.5 license explains very well why
this is not the case.  It should also be common sense that nobody can decide
to give away the work of somebody else for free without asking for
permission first.  Obviously a dual-license cannot change that fact.

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich
e-mail: mac### [at] povrayorg

I am a member of the POV-Ray Team.
Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org


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From: vdbergh
Subject: Re: OSI compatible license.
Date: 23 Sep 2004 10:20:00
Message: <web.4152a25ea8ee334f5c3acc940@news.povray.org>
Ok,

I have great respect for Povray and I am using it myself (on Linux).

The reason I think why Linux distributions do not include OSI incompatible
software is that they can't make bugfixes. And of course for many
of them there is a philosophical reason as well.

It was not my intention to sound aggressive or anything. I realize one
cannot
relicense the work of unknown authors. But there is also the opposite issue.
Many developers these days would not want to contribute to software with
a proprietary license...

The 3.5 license seemed to indicate that a rewrite was underway of the parts
of Povray with unknown author. In the 3.6 license this part has gone. I was
just curious why this was the case.


Best regards,
Michel


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From: Christoph Hormann
Subject: Re: OSI compatible license.
Date: 23 Sep 2004 10:50:02
Message: <ciu9k2$5vo$1@chho.imagico.de>
vdbergh wrote:
> 
> The reason I think why Linux distributions do not include OSI incompatible
> software is that they can't make bugfixes. 

That is not true, any Linux distributor is free to apply bugfixes to 
POV-Ray.  The aspects of the POV-Ray license that make it not OSI 
compatible have nothing to do with the interests of Linux distributors.

Note that several well known Linux distribution include POV-Ray which 
contradicts your statement above as well.

> And of course for many
> of them there is a philosophical reason as well.

You probably mean ideological reasons - and at least commercial 
distributors usually can't afford such a luxury.

Christoph

-- 
POV-Ray tutorials, include files, Sim-POV,
HCR-Edit and more: http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0013390/
Last updated 06 Jul. 2004 _____./\/^>_*_<^\/\.______


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From: Rafal 'Raf256' Maj
Subject: Re: OSI compatible license.
Date: 23 Sep 2004 11:17:14
Message: <Xns956D876C9CB78raf256com@203.29.75.35>
tho### [at] trfde news:41529842@news.povray.org

> You claim to have read the 3.5 license reasoning, yet you did not
> understand it at all:  To change the license to a lesser one, one
> first needs to have the right to do so, and obviously the 3.5 license
> explains very well why this is not the case.  It should also be common
> sense that nobody can decide to give away the work of somebody else
> for free without asking for permission first.  Obviously a
> dual-license cannot change that fact. 
> 

Btw, as I asked before - would it be possible to rewrite some old parts of 
Pov code (if oryginal authors can't be contacted), so that PovTeam would be 
"in touch" with authors of entire code, with could allow changing license 
(to more free for example) in future?

-- 
http://www.raf256.com/3d/
Rafal Maj 'Raf256', home page - http://www.raf256.com/me/
Computer Graphics


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From: Warp
Subject: Re: OSI compatible license.
Date: 23 Sep 2004 11:18:39
Message: <4152b10e@news.povray.org>
Christoph Hormann <chr### [at] gmxde> wrote:
> That is not true, any Linux distributor is free to apply bugfixes to 
> POV-Ray.

  True, but when they do, the results are sometimes horrible
(one word: debian).

-- 
#macro N(D)#if(D>99)cylinder{M()#local D=div(D,104);M().5,2pigment{rgb M()}}
N(D)#end#end#macro M()<mod(D,13)-6mod(div(D,13)8)-3,10>#end blob{
N(11117333955)N(4254934330)N(3900569407)N(7382340)N(3358)N(970)}//  - Warp -


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From: Thorsten Froehlich
Subject: Re: OSI compatible license.
Date: 23 Sep 2004 11:27:31
Message: <4152b323$1@news.povray.org>
In article <Xns956D876C9CB78raf256com@203.29.75.35>, "Rafal 'Raf256' Maj" 
<spa### [at] raf256com> wrote:

> Btw, as I asked before - would it be possible to rewrite some old parts of
> Pov code (if oryginal authors can't be contacted), so that PovTeam would be
> "in touch" with authors of entire code, with could allow changing license
> (to more free for example) in future?

Everything is possible, but as stated before:

As a matter of policy the POV-Team does not discuss future versions of
POV-Ray, their planned release date or any other feature they may or may not
have.  This includes the licensing.

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org


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From: vdbergh
Subject: Re: OSI compatible license.
Date: 23 Sep 2004 11:30:02
Message: <web.4152b2bca8ee334f5c3acc940@news.povray.org>
Hello,

If is not even clear that distributors can legally apply bug fixes!
This is the relevant part of the 3.6 license.


      (a) the Distributor may rename, reorganise or repackage (without
          omission) the files comprising the Software where such
          renaming, reorganisation or repackaging is necessary to
          conform to the naming or organisation scheme of the target
          operating environment of the Distribution or of an established
          package management system of the target operating environment
          of the Distribution; and

      (b) the Distributor must not otherwise rename, reorganise or
          repackage the Software.

Regards,
Michel


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From: Christoph Hormann
Subject: Re: OSI compatible license.
Date: 23 Sep 2004 11:40:04
Message: <ciuch4$atn$1@chho.imagico.de>
vdbergh wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> If is not even clear that distributors can legally apply bug fixes!
> This is the relevant part of the 3.6 license.
> [...]

No, obviously bug fixes are modifications of the POV-Ray source so you 
have to study the source license:

http://www.povray.org/source-license.html

Christoph

-- 
POV-Ray tutorials, include files, Sim-POV,
HCR-Edit and more: http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0013390/
Last updated 23 Sep. 2004 _____./\/^>_*_<^\/\.______


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