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Nigel Stewart wrote:
>
> > I think if this replaced POV-Script, people would go to other things
> > instead, and if it was an option along with POV-Script, very few
> > people would use it(even modellers would probably output in
> > POV-Script for file size reasons).
>
> Hmmm...
>
> A consistently negative reaction...
> An idea before it's time?
or behind the times...
> Or a community behind the times?
or a community that knows where it wants to go.
--
Ken Tyler - 1300+ Povray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/
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In article <38CCD832.7716F736@nigels.com>, nig### [at] eisa net au wrote:
> > I think if this replaced POV-Script, people would go to other things
> > instead, and if it was an option along with POV-Script, very few
> > people would use it(even modellers would probably output in
> > POV-Script for file size reasons).
>
> Hmmm...
>
> A consistently negative reaction...
> An idea before it's time?
> Or a community behind the times?
Or a screwdriver being used as a hammer? It might eventually get the job
done, but isn't as easy to use, isn't designed to be used that way, and
will probably ruin the screwdriver.
The reason it got a consistently negative response is that it would
require a graphical editor to comprehend the simplest scene written in
that language. It just isn't the right tool for the job, there would be
no reason to use it, and several reasons not to use it(it would be even
harder to program complex stuff in than it would be in POV-Script, and
harder for non-programmers to write scenes in, file sizes would be much
bigger...).
--
Chris Huff
e-mail: chr### [at] yahoo com
Web page: http://chrishuff.dhs.org/
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> The reason it got a consistently negative response is that it would
> require a graphical editor to comprehend the simplest scene written in
> that language.
Keep in mind that you're speaking from the point of view of
having already made an investment in the current format.
As pointed out already - it's recognisably like DKBtrace,
the point being that the use of braces, tags or commas
is really quite irrelevant.
> It just isn't the right tool for the job
For text editing, perhaps not. But for other things, it leaves
POV script for dead.
> it would be even harder to program complex stuff in than it
> would be in POV-Script
No, it wouldn't. It would be more consistent, more flexible
and more extensible.
> harder for non-programmers to write scenes in
No, the data is the same, tags are arguably easier for
non-programmers to grasp than "sphere { <0,0,0> 1.0 }"
which isn't informative in the slightest.
> file sizes would be much bigger...
Mesh data aside, it is completely irrelevant.
5k vs 8k? Is it that important?
You're right though, a hybrid text/tree/graphical editor
would be the ideal incarnation of an XML based scene
development tool.
--
Nigel Stewart (nig### [at] nigels com)
Research Student, Software Developer
Y2K is the new millenium for the mathematically challenged.
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> > Check out http://www.vrml.org/x3d.html, the working group
> > who are figuring out how to migrate VRML to XML.
> VRML seems reaaaaaaaaaly ugly. Especially things like needing to
> actually create a visible object before being able to reuse it, etc.
The semantics of VRML are not the point. Eventhough VRML is not
perfect for everything, it is at least a standard. Is there no
benefit in taking about spheres in the same way that VRML does?
--
Nigel Stewart (nig### [at] nigels com)
Research Student, Software Developer
Y2K is the new millenium for the mathematically challenged.
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Chris Huff wrote:
>
> > #declare vturb=vturbulence(3, 0.5, 6, vpos*0.008); // Thanks Chris Huff
>
> Er, actually, I didn't write that function. I wrote the vtransform()
> function. :-)
Oops, thanks Ron or Nathan then (it's not clear who wrote it, at least in the
docs, didn't check the source). Anyway it's a wonderful function.
G.
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In article <38C### [at] nigels com>, nig### [at] eisa net au wrote:
> > The reason it got a consistently negative response is that it would
> > require a graphical editor to comprehend the simplest scene written in
> > that language.
>
> Keep in mind that you're speaking from the point of view of
> having already made an investment in the current format.
> As pointed out already - it's recognisably like DKBtrace,
> the point being that the use of braces, tags or commas
> is really quite irrelevant.
Actually, I am not. I am actually working on a language that can be used
instead of POV-Script.
As you said, it resembles the scripting language for DKBTrace, which
wasn't designed with programming features in mind and was abandoned for
the current type of scripting language. I see no reason to go
backwards...
> > It just isn't the right tool for the job
>
> For text editing, perhaps not. But for other things, it leaves
> POV script for dead.
How is that so?
> > it would be even harder to program complex stuff in than it
> > would be in POV-Script
>
> No, it wouldn't. It would be more consistent, more flexible
> and more extensible.
And what makes you think this? Even with the current POV-Script syntax,
which is much more readable than this, it is easy to lose track of
things in complex looping/conditional structures.
Even a simple particle system would be a nightmare in that language...
> > harder for non-programmers to write scenes in
>
> No, the data is the same, tags are arguably easier for
> non-programmers to grasp than "sphere { <0,0,0> 1.0 }"
> which isn't informative in the slightest.
No, it would be harder for people to write, and nearly impossible to
read. Tags are *not* easier to understand, if you want to make the
current language easier to understand, try something like
"sphere {position = < 0, 0, 0>, radius = 1.0}".
Not only does your proposal require much more typing, it makes it much
easier to lose track of things. Everything disappears in a mess of tags.
> > file sizes would be much bigger...
>
> Mesh data aside, it is completely irrelevant.
> 5k vs 8k? Is it that important?
How about 1MB mesh vs 3.5MB mesh? Or 30MB mesh vs 75MB mesh? Or even
larger size increase?
This can be very important if you have several large files.
> You're right though, a hybrid text/tree/graphical editor
> would be the ideal incarnation of an XML based scene
> development tool.
It would be absolutely necessary if you want to write a complex scene,
and I still don't see how programming features fit in.
In order to use something like this, a GUI editor would have to be
created for each platform, even those without a built-in GUI.
--
Chris Huff
e-mail: chr### [at] yahoo com
Web page: http://chrishuff.dhs.org/
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In article <38CCE1C6.275E2B13@inapg.inra.fr>, Gilles Tran
<tra### [at] inapg inra fr> wrote:
> Oops, thanks Ron or Nathan then (it's not clear who wrote it, at
> least in the docs, didn't check the source). Anyway it's a wonderful
> function.
I think it was the Smellenberghs.
--
Chris Huff
e-mail: chr### [at] yahoo com
Web page: http://chrishuff.dhs.org/
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> > As pointed out already - it's recognisably like DKBtrace,
> > the point being that the use of braces, tags or commas
> > is really quite irrelevant.
I'm going to stand by this. Whether it is braces, tags,
commas, dots or my favorite character ~ , it is not
too important.
> it resembles the scripting language for DKBTrace, which
> wasn't designed with programming features in mind and was abandoned for
> the current type of scripting language. I see no reason to go
> backwards...
Backwards? Consider the fact that POV Script is complex
to parse. How many applications can parse it? Not many.
In XML, Internet Explorer 5 can parse pov script. Think
about it. With another layer, Internet Explorer 5 could
build a HTML page with a bunch of edit boxes that allow
editing. Or syntax highlighting, or whatever.
> > > It just isn't the right tool for the job
> > For text editing, perhaps not. But for other things, it leaves
> > POV script for dead.
>
> How is that so?
There are two ways to write software. One is to do
everything yourself, as you please. Another is to make
use of the work of others - libraries, standards, file
formats, technology trends. Povray relies on quite a
large and complex parser, implemented in C. To extend
Pov Script, you have to mess with the C parser. To
extend an XML based file format, you edit the DTD
(basically, the grammar) and add handlers for the
intermediate representation made available from the
XML parsing module. Adding new tags in a way that
doesn't break backwards compatibility is straight-
forward.
I would like to be able to write applications which
import and export POV compatible data - but I can't.
Pov script simply isn't easy to parse, only POV can
do it, and this is a handycap.
I think this whole "POV as programming environment"
is neat, but should be allowed to evolve in different
directions on top of something more solid than a
tangle of C parser code.
The current parser was state of the art, for it's
time. It's served us well, and it's been pushed
to it's limits. Is it conceivable that it is
time for an alternative?
> And what makes you think this? Even with the current POV-Script syntax,
> which is much more readable than this, it is easy to lose track of
> things in complex looping/conditional structures.
True, my assumption is that people ultimately want
more powerful and intuitive tools than a flat text
editor. XML is something is perhaps somewhere
between being "human editable" and "machine processable"
and I think that is a good balance for POV to find.
I suspect that XML can in fact keep everyone happy,
as long as someone goes to the trouble of a POV script
to POV XML converter. (Which I think should be a bit
simpler than the full POV parser)
> Even a simple particle system would be a nightmare in that language...
Not at all, you seem to get the impression that this is
a new language - it's not. It's simply POV Script in an
XML form. There are two issues here - (1) the data model,
and (2) the way you encode it in ASCII. I am really only
referring to (2). The whole point of XML is to allow you
to manage the data model more effectively - but it doesn't
mean that you throw away your existing data model to use XML.
> > Mesh data aside, it is completely irrelevant.
> > 5k vs 8k? Is it that important?
>
> How about 1MB mesh vs 3.5MB mesh? Or 30MB mesh vs 75MB mesh?
> Or even larger size increase?
I did specifically say "mesh data aside". And POV is
a terrible way to store meshes - seriously, even VRML
is more compact than Pov Script. Adding Indexed Face
Set meshes to POV would be one of the first "cool"
extensions that would be more easily done in XML.
(Partly because we can borrow the XML DTD for VRML
indexed face set, and be guaranteed compatibility)
> and I still don't see how programming features fit in.
OK, here goes, digging up a random macro to implement:
</macro>
<name> TextLabel</name>
<param>Text </param>
<param>Position </param>
<body>
<text no_shadow="true">
<ttf>timrom.ttf <var>Text</var> 0.1 0 </ttf>
<translate> <var>Position</var> </translate>
</text>
</body>
</macro>
Program code is structured data, after all!
Granted, it's not as easy to read as POV Script,
but converting to/from this to a syntax highlighted
POV Script version should be reasonably easy.
> In order to use something like this, a GUI editor would have to be
> created for each platform, even those without a built-in GUI.
It would certainly be a nice feature, regardless of
the actual scene decription format. And with more
cross-platform GUI tools becoming available, portability
no longer means text-only editing.
Anyway, I don't see the need to be so hostile.
All I want to see here is some more brainstorming
going on. If povray is still available in 2050,
it will only be because it keeps evolving.
--
Nigel Stewart (nig### [at] nigels com)
Research Student, Software Developer
Y2K is the new millenium for the mathematically challenged.
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<bzzt!> It wasn't Ron's, or Nathan's or Smellenberghs'. It was originally
found by Ken on this site (which appears to have died):
http://kolos.math.uni.lodz.pl/~garusk/eng/povadds.htm
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TonyB wrote:
>
> <bzzt!> It wasn't Ron's, or Nathan's or Smellenberghs'. It was originally
> found by Ken on this site (which appears to have died):
> http://kolos.math.uni.lodz.pl/~garusk/eng/povadds.htm
Strange. That is the second time that site has gone off line. Last
time I almost removed the link and it mysteriously came back on line.
Perhaps it will again someday - maybe not.
--
Ken Tyler - 1300+ Povray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/
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