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Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trf de> wrote:
> Good, then volunteer to do the work ;-)
"I KNEW he'd say that" :-). Hum, I'll see if I can find some time... Is the
current directory layout of an installed version a starting point to pull the
to-be-installed files from?
> What is the issue you are talking about and how did you determine that
> something is wrong?
Well, first I was disappointed by the fact that I was not allowed to choose the
target location of the install (I usually choose something different from
"C:\Program files"). I thought it'd go to somewhere below %ProgramFiles% but
was even more bewildered to find the binaries below %APPDATA%, a user-specific
location. I've done a few setups myself and even though I haven't found the
ultimate "Installer Bible" yet, I found it reasonable to put the binaries to
%ProgramFiles%, which is write-protected from the ordinary user (even more under
Vista and later) but readable to all. If the application is smart enough to pull
some (installed) default data if it doesn't find user stuff there's an easy time
for all.
Just have a look at the way Firefox and Thunderbird handle this: all binaries
and the like are located below %ProgramFiles% and are shared among users but
read-only, and user-profile data is located below %APPDATA%.
Regards
Gerd
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gerdb42 wrote:
> was even more bewildered to find the binaries below %APPDATA%,
Wasn't the intent to allow a user without admin privileges to install the
program for his private use?
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
C# - a language whose greatest drawback
is that its best implementation comes
from a company that doesn't hate Microsoft.
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> It would be nice to see some official documentation from Microsoft itself
> about how program installers should be designed and implemented,
It will all be documented and tested in detail as part of the Windows 7 Logo
Program.
The PDF downloadable from this page gives an overview of what is
required/tested for an application to pass:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?displaylang=en&FamilyID=27028822-b172-4cec-91a3-26b610a4da79
To quote from the installation section:
"Applications should be installed to the Program Files folder by default.
User data or application data must never be stored in this location because
of the security permissions configured for this folder"
"All application data that must be shared among users on the computer should
be stored within ProgramData"
"All application data exclusive to a specific user and not to be shared with
other users of the computer must be stored in Users\<username>\AppData"
"Never write directly to the "Windows" directory and or subdirectories. Use
the correct methods for installing files, such as fonts or drivers"
not during the installation. This is because there is no correct user
location to store data at time of installation. Attempts by an application
to modify default association behaviors at a machine level after
installation will be unsuccessful. Instead, defaults must be claimed on a
per-user level, which prevents multiple users from overwriting each other's
defaults."
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On 7/22/2010 7:07 PM, Darren New wrote:
> gerdb42 wrote:
>> was even more bewildered to find the binaries below %APPDATA%,
>
> Wasn't the intent to allow a user without admin privileges to install
> the program for his private use?
>
Do we really need to allow students to bypass the security restrictions
imposed by the school administrators? If we really want POV-Ray to
become a "portable" app, aren't there better ways?
--
http://isometricland.com
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On 25/07/2010 6:05 AM, SharkD wrote:
>
> Do we really need to allow students to bypass the security restrictions
> imposed by the school administrators?
Yes.
Or maybe it is workers who want to Pov in their lunch hour.
--
Best Regards,
Stephen
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>> Do we really need to allow students to bypass the security restrictions
>> imposed by the school administrators?
>
> Yes.
>
> Or maybe it is workers who want to Pov in their lunch hour.
Sorry, but that's absolute rubbish. There is a system in place to restrict
the installation of programs for many valid reasons, it's not up to software
writers to find devious and bizarre ways to bypass it (eg by installing into
My Documents!). One obvious example is software licensing, if an
organisation needs to track the licenses of all installed software for
audits then POV is going to slip through the net and cause problems.
Another issue is when a user gets concerned when POV installs without asking
for Admin rights, they are not expecting that.
There might even be a legal issue somewhere with the POV license, if the
machine administrator has not given permission for it to be installed,
IANAL.
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On 27/07/2010 17:51, scott wrote:
> Sorry, but that's absolute rubbish. There is a system in place to restrict
> the installation of programs for many valid reasons, it's not up to software
> writers to find devious and bizarre ways to bypass it (eg by installing into
I really hope you're not implying that this is what we have done.
> My Documents!). One obvious example is software licensing, if an
> organisation needs to track the licenses of all installed software for
> audits then POV is going to slip through the net and cause problems.
POV-Ray is installed into the users profile folder. This is as far as I
could tell the best solution for a non-privileged user on Vista. And
insofar as suggesting the install could be missed, that is nonsense. When
POV is installed via a MSI, the software is registered with the Windows
Installer DB. This applies no matter where the EXE ends up on the hard disk.
> Another issue is when a user gets concerned when POV installs without asking
> for Admin rights, they are not expecting that.
I see many programs that install without admin rights. In fact, the past
requirement for many programs that actually didn't *need* admin rights to
require them just to be installed is one major factor in the push by
Microsoft to move away from this requirement. They are quite clear in that
if a program doesn't need admin rights to run, it shouldn't need it to be
installed. It's up to the system admin to set policies about install, not
relying on admin or lack thereof.
> There might even be a legal issue somewhere with the POV license, if the
> machine administrator has not given permission for it to be installed,
If the machine admin doesn't want any software installed and hasn't locked
down installs completely, then he's got more to worry about than POV. We
use MSI-based installs rather than a setup.exe, meaning that anyone with
control over group policy can easily restrict exactly what Windows
installer does or doesn't allow. Programs that don't use windows installer
can bypass this. Put simply, if a user can put a EXE on the system, they
can install software, and it's not our problem to deal with this. We
provide the means for admins to audit installs by using Windows Installer,
and that's about the most we can do.
-- Chris
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>> My Documents!). One obvious example is software licensing, if an
>> organisation needs to track the licenses of all installed software for
>> audits then POV is going to slip through the net and cause problems.
>
> POV-Ray is installed into the users profile folder. This is as far as I
> could tell the best solution for a non-privileged user on Vista.
Sure, if your goal is to try and somehow allow installation without Admin
rights, rather than comply with the MS guidelines for software. I am just
trying to understand your reasoning why POV should be different from
standard software.
> I see many programs that install without admin rights.
That is not approved by MS though (hence they won't pass the Windows Logo
tests, binaries won't be protected, it could go all screwy if the user
profile is on a network resource, the installer might not work with future
Windows updates/versions, etc). OOC where do these other programs put the
binaries?
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On 28/07/2010 17:24, scott wrote:
>> POV-Ray is installed into the users profile folder. This is as far as I
>> could tell the best solution for a non-privileged user on Vista.
>
> Sure, if your goal is to try and somehow allow installation without
> Admin rights, rather than comply with the MS guidelines for software. I
> am just
Your statement is both offensive and also completely wrong. You do not
understand Windows installation, yet you pretend you do. You seem to have
the bizarre idea that only Admins should have the right to install software
on a Windows computer, and that software that allows otherwise is somehow
an attempt to 'bypass the rules'.
I challenge you to find a *current* Microsoft installation standard that
states that users without admin rights *may not install software at all*.
In the process, you will find the opposite: that Microsoft has made
significant effort to ensure that non-admins *can* install software,
subject to the group policy set by the admin.
> trying to understand your reasoning why POV should be different from
> standard software.
Aside from perhaps the exact choice of installation location, POV-Ray is
installed using the correct MSI-based procedure, which as I pointed out in
my previous message (which you completely ignored), subjects it to the
complete control of the system administrator via group policy.
Please read up on installation standards before implying that our group is
intentionally trying to allow users to sabotage corporate computer systems
by facilitating unauthorized installations.
-- Chris
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> I challenge you to find a *current* Microsoft installation standard that
> states that users without admin rights *may not install software at all*.
See the link to the PDF I posted already. It clearly states that
applications should be installed in to "Program Files" by default. The POV
installer does not do this.
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