And lo on Fri, 14 Dec 2007 23:36:16 -0000, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>  
did spake, saying:

> Phil Cook wrote:
>>> You have a model of the universe in your head, and in that model, you  
>>> have a model of yourself. That is your soul. It's what makes you  
>>> self-aware, and it's what makes you know the difference between good  
>>> and evil.
>>  But if you have a universe-modal aren't you by definition a part of  
>> that model and therefore conscious of your presence in that model?
>
> Well, yes. That's precisely what we're talking about at this very  
> moment, isn't it?

You seemed to be implying the possibilty of a universe-model without  
self-conciousness that was all.

>> Take that squirrel who worked out how to get to the food table through  
>> the ramps jumps and swinging things, could he have done that without a  
>> universe-model and more importantly an awareness of himself. Do  
>> squirrels thus have souls?
>
> Possibly. They're clearly self-aware.
>
>>> You're self-aware because you can run simulations on yourself to  
>>> determine what would happen were you to do something. You don't need  
>>> to step off the edge to know you'd bounce painfully on the way down.
>>  But that's experience, almost Pavlovian;
>
> Not necessarily. It starts out that way, but you don't *ever* need to  
> fall out of a tree so that when you see someone else do it,you go  
> "that's gotta hurt."

But do we see the same behaviour in the unsouled animals, one cat falls  
 from a tree hurts itself and starts miawing does the other cat jump off  
too?

>> What you seem to be saying is that self-conciousness equals soul,  
>> therefore dolphins and elephants that preen themselves before mirrors  
>> are ensouled. Wow that should annoy the 'humans are the best'  
>> fundamentalists :-)
>
> Yep. You didn't ask me if it was the same soul the preachers talk about.  
> You just wondered if there is such a thing as a soul.

Well I didn't, but I think preachers have got Soul™ as their own personal  
domain so talking about soul as self-conciousness and thus the extension  
as above would tick them off.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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