And lo on Thu, 13 Dec 2007 16:25:35 -0000, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>  
did spake, saying:

> Darren New wrote:
>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:02:27 -0800, Darren New wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>>> I don't know that it does - is there evidence/proof to suggest that  
>>>>> it
>>>>> does?
>>>> Do you know who Abraham Lincoln was?  George Washington? Adolph  
>>>> Hitler?
>>>> Julius Ceaser?
>>>
>>> What's that got to do with souls?
>>  I'll let you think about it first, for a while.  Ask yourself what a  
>> soul is, and what makes a difference between a live and a dead person.
>
> I just wondered if you wanted to continue this.  So, having thought  
> about how to try to put it in words...
<snip>
> You have a model of the universe in your head, and in that model, you  
> have a model of yourself. That is your soul. It's what makes you  
> self-aware, and it's what makes you know the difference between good and  
> evil.

But if you have a universe-modal aren't you by definition a part of that  
model and therefore conscious of your presence in that model? Take that  
squirrel who worked out how to get to the food table through the ramps  
jumps and swinging things, could he have done that without a  
universe-model and more importantly an awareness of himself. Do squirrels  
thus have souls?

> You're self-aware because you can run simulations on yourself to  
> determine what would happen were you to do something. You don't need to  
> step off the edge to know you'd bounce painfully on the way down.

But that's experience, almost Pavlovian; the only major difference is we  
can pass on such experience without the necessity of the physical process  
"Those berries are poisonous". If you argue that the possibly soul-less  
animals will jump down/across things they can't reach I'll happily point  
to supposedly ensouled humans who've done the same thing. (I know you  
won't insult me by saying that the humans were aware of the potential  
risk, whereas the animals weren't)

> You know good from evil because, being able to simulate yourself, you  
> can determine likely outcomes.  You also know good from evil because you  
> have models of other people in your head, too. You know your mom would  
> be insulted if you call her a bitch. You know, were you young enough,  
> that she would punish you for doing so. You probably even know what sort  
> of punishment, and you *probably* even understand *why* she would do so.
>
> You have a bit of your Mom's soul in your head. Put there by love,  
> unless you had an exceptionally unhappy childhood, in which case it was  
> put there by fear and hatred. Bits of your Mom's soul will continue to  
> live in your head after she is gone.

What you seem to be saying is that self-conciousness equals soul,  
therefore dolphins and elephants that preen themselves before mirrors are  
ensouled. Wow that should annoy the 'humans are the best' fundamentalists  
:-)

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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